I Want to Do Things Right This Time

Back in June til the end of September/Early October (I know first mistake it was too long but hear me out) of last year I did my first cycle consisting of a stack of test and finaplix. I started out shooting half a CC of each (I would do the test every Monday and Thursdays and the finiplix every other day) and after doing that for about 3 weeks I just bumped it up to 1 CC for each and never went above that. I got GREAT results and gains as far as strength and size and just felt overall GREAT.

Upon getting off of everything, I was told to take tamoxifen citrate and inject Novarel (the HCG stuff).

When I got off, I waited a week before starting injecting the Novarel but I was taking the tamoxifen citrate when I woke up and before I went to sleep. After that week I started with the Novarel. I injected every five days (5cc’s the first shot, 3cc’s the second shot, and 1cc the third shot and that was it). During this time I lost about 5-8lbs and I barely lost any strength.

2 or 3 weeks after being off of everything completely I started noticing an increase of acne but I didn’t think nothing of it because I’ve always had a lil acne and it just went away, this wasn’t the case this time. I don’t know if anyone has seen that picture of the supposively the “Worst steroid acne ever” thing but mine was pretty close to looking like that and that lasted from November-February and it was the absolute worst expeirence/physical pain I have ever been through in my entire life (I literrally had holes in my chest and I couldn’t work out just because of the discomfort). I was prescribed Accutane (80 mg’s a day) and a heavy dose of Antibiotics and it has all cleared up now, I just have alot of scars which I honestly don’t really care about.

I’ve started back working out now and I still have 2 months left on my accutance and antibiotics which I intend to finish. When I do finish though, I want to make another run at everything but I was wondering if I could get some advice on what I should do in order to go about doing things the right way this time and possibly avoid such a terrible acne breakout because I don’t think I could go through something like that again without doing something stupid. I plan on just doing a cycle of test and test alone (I’ve read that some people who’ve used the finiplex have had the same problem as I did). I know I made some mistakes as far as using for too long and I guess I’ll have to just look at it as a hard learning expierence.

I thank you VERY much if you’ve taken the time out to read this and if you could give me some tips.

Could you describe your cycle a little more clearly. You haven’t indicated the concentrations of the testosterone or the Finaplix so it is impossible to know what your dosages were. Also, was this your first cycle? If not, what other ones have you run?

If I understand correctly, you used test enanthate or test cyp 2x/w (probably at 250mg/ml) and tren ace EOD (probably at 100mg/ml).

For the first 3 weeks you were using 1/2 cc of each compound per injection so:

Test E 125mg 2x/w = 250mg/w
Tren ace 50mg EOD = 175mg/w
No mention of any aromatase inhibitor (Adex or Letro)

For the remainder of your cycle (we would need to know how long??) you used 1 cc of each compound per injection - so:

Test E 250mg 2x/w = 500mg/w
Tren Ace 100mg EOD = 350mg/w
No AI

I’m assuming you continued for at least 8 weeks since you said results were so good. When things go well we are normally loathe to stop so you probably went 10 weeks.

You said that you started the tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex) immediately after you ended your cycle. Maybe that means the following Monday or maybe that means you started tamoxifen citrate the day after your last test e or tren ace injection?

What dose did you use (mgs PLEASE!!!)? Also, how long did you run the tamoxifen citrate?

It seems you are not aware that you should wait for serum test level to drop to 100mg or below determined by the half life of the ester you were using. If it was indeed the two compounds I assumed, then test e was the longer ester and required 2 weeks to clear adequately for your serum level to be 100mg or below (when it is OK to start PCT). The reason for this determination is that the tamoxifen citrate is to assist your body to get back online and start producing its own testosterone once more to allow you to recover. If your test level was higher than 100mg when you started the tamoxifen citrate, it couldn’t do its job and your recovery would have been very rocky with huge hormonal shifts from high to low until your body could correct itself. Add to that that tren is a compound that complicates recovery and requires a good PCT to recover from properly.

Proper PCT depending on the length of your cycle would have been to allow two weeks to go by after your last shot of test E and the start on Nolva for 4 weeks dosed at W1: 40mg/d, W2: 40mg/d, W3: 20mg/d, W4: 20mg/d.

A test stasis/taper PCT may have been preferred especially if you cycle was longer than 8 weeks and since you used tren. Outlining the test taper is a little involved, but you can read the sticky outlining it at the top of the forum.

Now we get to the HCG. HCG is to be used on cycle to keep the testicles from temporarily shrinking (atrophying) and to keep them fully primed to start producing testosterone on their own again once the cycle is complete, the waiting period elapsed, and PCT begins. This facilitates a smooth recovery, again especially with tren use and on longer cycles (since your system was shut down longer - it takes more strategy to get it back online quickly and efficiently).

HCG is not recommended post cycle and could well further delay the return of your own production of testosterone (read recovery).

You said you injected the HCG (subcutaneously I guess) 3 times at five day intervals starting 1 week after your cycle ended. You said the shots were as follows:

1st HCG injection 1 week after end of cycle: 5ccs
2nd HCG injection 12 days after end of cycle: 3ccs
3rd HCG injection 17 days after end of cycle: 1cc

HCG is dosed in IUs (International Units). I have no way of knowing what concentration your HCG was reconsituted with Bacteriostatic water. In other words how many IUs per ml. This is needed information.

Correct HCG protocol is 250IU EOD while on cycle. HCG can be started several weeks into cycle since testicles aren’t compromised before that. Starting 4+ weeks before the end of cycle should be adequated to plump the testes up and prime them for a return to duty.

HCG should be stopped upon end of cycle and prior to PCT.

Another factor is the apparent non use of an aromatase inhibitor. If that is the case, did you not get gyno? You should have been using Adex at doses of about 0.25mg/d adjusted up or down depending on how well it manages your estrogen level. More Adex if you exhibit high E2 (estrogen) symptoms, less Adex if you exhibit low E2 symptoms. Running a cycle with no AI increases hormonal fluctuation and increases the liklihood of acne, gyno, poor libido, mental fogginess, joint pain, etc.

So to summarize and address your main question, you made a lot of mistakes that led to much greater hormonal fluctuation than there should have been. Hormonal fluctuation can definitely be a big factor in acne so that probably aggravated it in your case. You may be more susceptible to acne than most. Everyone reacts differently. Some on this forum have speculated of late that SERMs tend to aggravate acne even after a cycle where it was not a problem (and even when the correct protocols are followed). Some speculate that a stasis/taper PCT might be easier on those prone to this outcome than a SERM PCT is.

In any case I hope this helps unravel the mystery for you.

Yes this was my first cycle.

I never did use any AI. I just did as I was told from a guy who has been doing this for 20 plus years and he never had any of the problems that I had and he always steered me in the right direction when it came to working out and I figured he would know what to do about this as well due to his expierence. It amazed him how much I was broke out.

I’m pretty sure it was test. cyp. and I can’t answer the question about concentrations and stuff unless there is some way you can tell me how to figure it out.

I admit that I went longer then 10 weeks.

I was taking a 10mg tablet of tamoxifen in the morning and at night so thats 20 mg’s a day.

"It seems you are not aware that you should wait for serum test level to drop to 100mg or below determined by the half life of the ester you were using. If it was indeed the two compounds I assumed, then test e was the longer ester and required 2 weeks to clear adequately for your serum level to be 100mg or below (when it is OK to start PCT).

The reason for this determination is that the tamoxifen citrate is to assist your body to get back online and start producing its own testosterone once more to allow you to recover. If your test level was higher than 100mg when you started the tamoxifen citrate, it couldn’t do its job and your recovery would have been very rocky with huge hormonal shifts from high to low until your body could correct itself.

Add to that that tren is a compound that complicates recovery and requires a good PCT to recover from properly."
— I was never told this at all. I was just told to wait a week before I started the HCG Novarel and was told to start the tamoxifen like a day after my last shot.

“HCG is dosed in IUs (International Units). I have no way of knowing what concentration your HCG was reconsituted with Bacteriostatic water. In other words how many IUs per ml. This is needed information”

—I was told to fill up the whole vile of the powder of HCG with the Bacteriostatic water and inject as I did (5 cc’s, 3cc’s, 1 cc). every five days.

“Another factor is the apparent non use of an aromatase inhibitor. If that is the case, did you not get gyno?”
—No gyno what so ever.

I appreciate the reply man, and like I said I’m wanting to do another cycle of just test and test only for the reccomended 8 weeks instead of a prolonged cycle as I (stupidly) did before, how would I go about that?

I guess you realize you have to be your own advocate in the future and the folly of your past behavior.

Some absolute necessities for future forays with AAS.

  1. Know compounds
  2. Know dosages
  3. Know about AIs
  4. Know about PCT
  5. Study up on how to handle AAS for those prone to acne.
  6. Don’t put your life in the hands of an AAS dealer.
  7. Read this forum’s stickys start to finish.

It’ll be worth the effort. Imagine all the grief you could have avoided had you done it before starting.

Good luck…

#6 really needs to be starred, underlined and bolded.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
#6 really needs to be starred, underlined and bolded.[/quote]

2X Sorry to hear about the acne OP, my piece of advice is to go back to the drawing board and do some more research on the subject. The ins and outs. NEVER, I mean NEVER take another users account to estimate your own possible experience. Cheers

Trenbolone is 5x more androgenic than testosterone, thats 500% more androgenic.

If you are sensitive to acne you need to be careful with highly androgenic products… It is DHT )or whatever the metabolite that tren reduces to) that causes the extra sebaceous gland secretion (oily skin) is the cause of the acne (AFAIK)

Next time leave out highly androgenic products… test and maybe deca 500/300 respectively would be decent.

EDIT:

In fact, given the severity of this i might be tempted to keep test at the same dose of the deca or lower - so maybe 400mg deca and 350mg test or some such stack. This is an effective way to get good anabolic results with reduced androgenic sides, and WAS commonly used in the past.

It isnt the case that Test NEEDS to be higher than deca, as is believed by many on this site, it depends what the cause of libido dropping is - and in deca’s case it is rarely the lack of DHT, which 350mg test is more than enough to replace… you’ll find many have libido problems with deca when running twice the dose of test. This suggests something else is at fault of the sex drive.

It is the prolactin IMO. /EDIT

Brook

Using this as a basis, should people whom are susceptible to acne get accutane as a precautionary? I was thinking about getting some just incase anything like this may flare up, even if it is not as bad. Still a little kick in the face to the wallet though.