T Nation

I Want MASS!


Hi Gents,

I've been lurking and creeping on these forums for a minute now. I've read the stickies and grasped information most AAS users at the local gym failed/refused to give me. I've been training semi-seriously for the past 3 years and hoping to put on some quality mass(how cliche). I say "semi-seriously" because my legs are lagging behind and I have no excuses for them being so pathetic.

I'm actually thinking this next cycle is going to bring the wheels out as much as I wanted. However, I have never done an adequate cycle in the past(I flirted with steroids when I was in 21 or 22, tried some Test Enanthate for 4 weeks and had decent results). I'm looking to redeem myself and I need some help.

I'm 27, 6 feet tall and 203lbs. My 1RM Squat(90 Degree Angle) is at 315lbs, 1RM bench is at 315lbs as well(my bench matches my squat? how embarassing! my lower body has some catching up to do, I told you) and my 1RM deadlift is at 455lbs.

Though I'm more than anxious to get some results, I figured I'd be taking really small dosages and in result of this take a SERM only after my cycle, during my PCT.

This is what my cycle looks like:

Week 1-4 : 50mg of D-Bol/Day
Week 1-6 : 600mg of Test Enanthate/Week
Week 1-12 : 60mg of Trenbolone Acetate/Every Third Day
Week 6-12 : 600mg of Cyp/Week

Week 14&15 : 40mg of Nolva/Day
Week 16 and + : Tribulus

Now my question is, would it be counter-effective to combine Trenbolone for it's leaning qualities and D-Bol for it's bulking properties? I'm trying to add mass while avoiding water retention. Fuck am I ever picky!?!? Feel free to give me some advice..I've got so much to learn.


me dumb?


That cycle is less than perfect to say the least, pct and all. Do a search for test/tren/dbol if that is what you are interested in. And please read the stickies.


This is not true at all and I don't know why you think it is ok to give out this advice without any further explanation.

Are you seriously recommending 12 weeks or more of SERM after a 12 week cycle?? Standard SERM pct is called standard for a reason.


So what should my PCT look like? Does 2-4 weeks sound reasonable? What do you recommend I tweak on my actual AAS cycle?


When I said "do a search for test/tren/dbol" that meant that you should use the search function at the top of the page and do some reading. You are brand new here and are asking something that has been repeated over and over and over. And I don't beleive I actually typed a five line reply at a quarter after one. Do some reading and wait for the British people to show up in a few hours, I hear theyre nice fellows.


Well this is bollocks for a start.


Wks 1-10 100 mg Test Enanthate-Cypionate/ED (Frontloaded as well)
wks 1-12 30-40mg Tren Acetate/ED
wks 1-4/8-12 30mg Dianabol ED

13-17 Tamoxifen

I would recommend a 6 or 8 week cycle, but if you prefer a longer one, cut it off at 10 wks (12wks suppression). Using the dianabol in the beginning will provide some nice synergy with the TA and using at the end whill give your cycle a final thump before you finish. You also need to add in an aromatase inhibitor, or at least I would. Shooting the e or cyp or blend everyday will result in more stable blood levels and will not be any more inconvenient, being that you will be shooting the tren anyways.

There, you have been spoon-fed


Tren for 12 weeks???


Just out of morbid curiousity, as nothing else in this plan catches the interest (same old mistakes that will never be stamped out it seems) why, unless the reason is supply in which case that's a good reason, are you planning on using T enanthate for the first 6 weeks and then cypionate for the following 6 weeks?

What is the intended purpose for the switch?


IMO there is nothing wrong with that as long as you are prepared for the potential sides.


I've never quite been able to wrap my head around tren for less than the length of the rest of the cycle. If you are going to use tren anyway, and use it for 6 weeks, which I believe is the "standard" recommended length of use, then why not just keep going? For me, I'm usually just about getting to the point where I've completely adapted to tren's sides at around weeks 4-5 (luckily for me, I am not too egregiously effected by these sides). Why would I want to cut things off right when I am at the point at which I can tolerate everything? On top of that, if you can hack things for 6 weeks, you might as well go with it for 8 or 10 or however long you are running your test or whatever it is. Tren is about as good as it gets in terms of results, and, if you can tolerate those sides, then my suggestion, too, is what it appears my good friend Eg is suggesting: run the tren all the way through.


Shoot everyday huh EG? Painful, but I'll definitely run with it. AI is something I'll have to get my hands on as well. Thanks for the great advice gentlemen. If I have Branch Warren legs by the end of this cycle, I'll put up a few pictures.


Considering both the Cypionate and Enanthate have similar effects, I intended on switching by the 6th week of my cycle to determine which my body "prefers". Let me know what you think. Thanks


There will be no preference. The ester has absolutely zero effect except on half-life, which has no effect except stability of levels and duration of action; and in this case there is rather little difference there, either.


I've just personally never known anyone to run it longer than 6 wks. Not to say that it can't be done obviously!!! Also considering that the OP's only previous experience is 4 wks on test E it sounds a bit long in this particular case. Just my two cents though, to each his own.


The one carbon atom difference between the 2 won't matter. Its like drinking skim and non-fat milk and asking which you prefer.

A few thoughts of my own:

I'm very much with Cortes on this one. Speaking from experience this past summer I was on tren enthanate for 10 weeks. Duration is not the issue with tren its volume. You need to find what dose level works for you. For me 400mg a week is a nice balance between measureable gains and minimal sides. Although lets not kid ourselves the sides are there. I do further concur with Cortes that the body to an extent will adapt to the oxygen depravation, increased bp, lack of sleep, sweatiness, etc and what ever else we get from tren after awhile.

Since your thread title is related to mass then you must consider tren. Not so much because it as a stand alone is a mass builder but because it will enable you to train with heavier weights. And that is a mass builder. Tren Test and dbol are a perfect threesome for mass and strength.

Finally a personal revelation I had this summer was that I found maximum effectiveness when taking all my dbol at once pre workout. Give that a shot too.


I disagree - i find it particularly difficult to bulk as best i can on Tren.

Don't get me wrong, if i want to gain weight on the drug i can - but not as much as i could if i didn't use tren - same for Oxymetholone.

It is the appetite blunting effect, it is just not conductive for MAX size gains.


And thats a legit point. I suppose you will look bigger on Deca than tren for instance. And I will concede the appetite suppression of tren. But there are ways around appetite. Also so much depends on how and why someone trains.

Again the point I was driving home was not so much that tren was a mass builder but that tren paired with Test and dbol is a great threesome for a massbuilding arena. The test gives much of the mass. The tren and dbol [at least the way I use it] really jack the training up.

Also if you're training with 1-5 reps you will achieve different results than 8-15 reps. I suppose as someone who is more PL inclined I gravitate towards tren. However, Deca is a great substitute if looking for size and training with the traditional 8-15 rep range


I wasn't thinking about deca - nor any drug really.. it isn't a drug i use any more really.

Training isn't it either i'm afraid ;p - it is purely that i am naturally quite ectomorphic, and while i am less so than i once was as a young man.. i still don't gain like some can (although it seems many here think they gain a lot more than the actually do!).

If i want to add size i NEED to eat full time. proper full time.. it is damn hard.
So a drug that inhibits hunger to any degree limits the amount of food i can put away and this directly limits the size i can add.. granted if i add G6 i will be able to eat enough to grow BUT this is only the case immediately after using the peptide and i would have eaten more without the Tren (or Oxy - that does the same but with less benefit to my body comp due to its activity).

Also i don't get crazy strength from Tren (or Test, or Mast, or...!) although that wasn't part of my point as i know this is not the case for the majority.

It seems that the drugs that increase strength by high androgen neural stimulation, do not illicit the same gains in me as with most others.. whether that is because i am fairly efficient in my neural strength already or the complete opposite i do not know.. but it is the drugs that directly swell my muscles (with water) that blow my numbers through the roof.

Weird huh?

The last sentence i don't particularly agree with but i see where you are coming from i think (Tren = Strength, Deca = Size).