I Hope my Kids have Professors Like This: Freedom and Dissent

They published their playbook long ago. You just have to know your enemy. These are not community organizers, they are Marxist street agitators executing their plan as written. Read Saul Alinsky’s ‘Rules for Radicals’ if you want to see the full plan. Some excerpts:

“The organizers first job is to create the issues or problems, and organizations must be based on many issues. The organizer must first rub raw the resentments of the people of the community; fan the latent hostilities of many of the people to the point of overt expression. He must search out controversy and issues, rather than avoid them, for unless there is controversy people are not concerned enough to act. . . . An organizer must stir up dissatisfaction and discontent.”

“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)”

“Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage.”

“The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.”

“One’s concern with the ethics of means and ends varies inversely with one’s personal interest in the issue.”

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Watching the current crucifixion of anyone who dares argues that perhaps Antifa shares some blame in Charlottesville is further evidence that what you describe may be accurate. I’ve had to walk away from former classmates from law school who seem hell bent on destroying the First Amendment. I could call them stupid, and they weren’t exactly the class stars, but it’s not stupidity so much as virtue signaling if not an outright push for totalitarianism.

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I’m with you. If the nazi, alt right-whatevers had been allowed to march around all weekend they would have crawled back into their mom’s basements on Monday and it would have been done.

How many were there, a thousand? This was the biggest white supremacist rally in a generation, which brought in people from every state east of the Mississippi, and the most they could get together was a thousand. Pathetic.

If the left had let them have their moment that young woman would still be alive, and another dozen people wouldn’t be suffering from injuries the rest of their lives. If you don’t let people speak the next step is violence.

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My grandfather died fighting real Nazis and his aunt and uncle were murdered by them. I hate the Klan, neonazis and anyone ease with a racist agenda, but fighting in the streets in today’s world is neither necessary or productive. And yes, this was one of the biggest racist rallies we have seen in years. My general attitude is that assholes and racists will always be with us because stupid and angry people will always be with us, but I’m watching a large scale and popular violent anti-democracy group do its best to shut down any opposing views. The Antifa are openly condoned by many left-leaning well educated people who should know better. I expect uneducated people to be unbalanced in their views, shrill of voice, and illogical in argument, but not privileged people who should know better, and who have the power actually shut down free speech and punish those with whom they disagree. I really don’t wish to be ruled by any totalitarian group be they from the left or right, and no matter what their justification for violence.

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Moving this conversation over here, since this thread is more to topic and people on The Stupid Thread want some comedic relief. Bolt, I read the Heterodox article I linked to before I read the WSJ piece you put up. Thanks.

It’s still true. From the Brooking’s Insitute in 2013. This is true regardless of race.

  1. At least finish high school.
  2. Get a full-time job.
  3. Wait until age 21 to get married and have children.

I’ll add a 4th, which is stay married if you have kids.

It’s also true of Black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean, who tend to do so well. They tend to do these things. Have children later, marry and stay married if they have kids, and have higher educational attainment than many other ethnic groups. They tend to move above the median income within a decade, and that’s true in the US, the UK, and Canada. Also, if growing up Black in America is truly so “corrosive” because of Jim Crow and the legacy of Slavery, then it’s very hard to say that the experiences of these groups are “irrelevant.” Surely there’s something we can learn here, since the immigrants from Africa and the Carribean have generally experienced generational poverty. Jim Crow era laws kept people from acquiring wealth through the accumulation of property, but so did growing up in a mud hut in Africa where you call a trashcan with a metal grate over the top a stove.

From Brookings -
“Our research shows that of American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class (defined as earning around $55,000 or more per year). There are surely influences other than these principles at play, but following them guides a young adult away from poverty and toward the middle class.”

Unfortunately, talking about social or cultural factors has become very perilous because of… wait for it… Identity Politics. Unequal group outcomes must be blamed on the moral failings of others, generally those in the dominant group. Attempts to discuss any unequal group outcomes by pointing out differences in social or cultural factors is now considered a “conservative stance.” Notice how much has changed, since Brookings did this article in 2013.

As we saw with the outrage at the Wax essay, pointing to social or behavior factors will be attacked as failing to acknowledge white privilege and as a racist position. Taking one or two lines from her essay out of context and using them to make broad generalizations is not a mistake. (You want to go back to the racism of the 1950s?) We can no longer talk about any biological differences between the genders, nor can we say that certain cultural practices are less desirable than any other cultural practices. It’s unacceptable because it does not place the blame for any unequal outcomes on either institutional racism, implicit racism, sexism, misogyny, or the unequal and unfair foundations of Western society.

Did you notice that Klick, the colleague who both signed the condemnation letter for Wax, and wrote the response to Hadit’s summary at Heterodox, says “I don’t think Wax is a racist…” Nice of him to say so. Really. Nice of him to clarify that fact. Although he did sign the “condemnation letter.” Also, nice of him to change his words to “criticize” instead of “condemn.”

In contrast, the language of the students at Penn is here. "We call for the University of Pennsylvania administration — Penn President Gutmann and the deans of each school — as well as faculty to directly confront Wax and Alexander’s op-ed as racist and white supremacist discourse and to push for an investigation into Wax’s advocacy for white supremacy.

Bolt, the cases of Erika and Nicholas Christakis, or Bret Weinstein, are more sympathetic for me than Wax, probably because they are much, much more tactful, NOT that writing a pointed, or provocative essay, or voicing unpopular opinions in an essay should be reasons to call for someone to be fired, or labeled a White Supremacist and Racist! Erika and Nick Christakis, and Weinstein have been unjustly labeled as racists and bigots. They are not.

I know less about Amy Wax, but based on her Op Ed, there’s absolutely no way any reasonable person could justify the response of the mostly anthropology students, calling her a racist and a white supremacist.

She’s certainly not the first person to say that some cultural or behavioral norms are less likely to lead to affluence, or are more likely to lead to poverty. Ha! Thomas Sowell does a whole speech about how cultures aren’t equal. Don’t even get me started on cultural appropriation. The reason we’re NOT using Roman Numerals is because some cultural ideas are superior. There’s no way to avoid it. We adopt superior ideas from other cultures all the time.

An event at Ryerson University in Canada was recently cancelled after university students there put up a FB page entitled “No Fascists in Our City!” to protest the event. The page’s header image depicted a swastika with the red circle, and a slash through it. Yep. When they do that with your name, you’re being called a Nazi. At least two of the four speakers are Jewish professors, and at least one of them is Jewish and has a mixed-race family, including Black siblings. The topic was, The Stifling of Free Speech on University Campuses. The Irony.

One of the professors who was planning to speak at the Ryerson event was Gad Saad. This is a really very nice clip of him defending the recent incident of offended people calling for Professor Bruce Gilley to be fired. Have a listen, if you have the time.

7:45 minutes.

@anon50325502

Re: The idea that the anthro students at Penn were outraged by the lack of empirial data in an Op Ed? Oh man! LOL! Have you seen some of the things that pass as peer reviewed research articles in some of those fields? Believe me, that’s not the problem. And nobody calls you a racist for not citing some evidence, they just eviscerate your ideas in a counter-essay. See Gad Saad above.

Enjoy!

Sleeping Around, With, and Through Time
An Autoethnographic Rendering of a Good Night’s Slumber
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1077800416672698

“A Super Wild Story”: Shared Human–Pigeon Lives and the Questions They Beg
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1077800417725353

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Speaking of Heads Exploding. An update on Bret Weinstein and the Evergreen scandal. Unreal. Professor Naima Lowe is mentioned in the article. If you want to see footage of some IP extremism, you can find footage of her on Youtube screaming profanities at her colleagues, and also preaching Critical Race Theory and “all whites are racists.” I’m sure she’s otherwise a really nice lady.

Text in the event of paywall -

Biology professor Bret Weinstein has settled his lawsuit against Evergreen State College in Olympia, Wash. Mr. Weinstein became a pariah last spring when he criticized an officially sanctioned “Day of Absence” during which white people were asked to stay away from campus. He and his wife, anthropology professor Heather Heying, alleged that Evergreen “has permitted, cultivated, and perpetuated a racially hostile and retaliatory work environment.” They claimed administrators failed to protect them from “repeated provocative and corrosive verbal and written hostility based on race, as well as threats of physical violence.”

Last week the university announced it would pay $500,000 to settle the couple’s complaint. Evergreen said in a statement that the college “strongly rejects” the lawsuit’s allegations, denies the Day of Absence was discriminatory, and asserts: “The college took reasonable and appropriate steps to engage with protesters, de-escalate conflict, and keep the campus safe.”

A different story emerges from hundreds of pages of Evergreen correspondence, which I obtained through Washington state’s Public Records Act. The emails show that some students and faculty were quick to levy accusations of racism with neither evidence nor consideration of the reputational harm they could cause. The emails also reveal Mr. Weinstein and Ms. Heying were not the only ones concerned about a hostile and dangerous campus.

Consider a February exchange, in which Mr. Weinstein—a progressive who is skeptical of identity politics—faulted what he called Evergreen administrators’ “reckless, top-down reorganization around new structures and principles.”

Within minutes, a student named Mike Penhallegon fired back an email denouncing Mr. Weinstein and his “racist colleagues.”

Another student, Steve Coffman, responded by asking for proof of racism within the science faculty. Mr. Coffman cited Christopher Hitchens’s variation of Occam’s razor: “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

Jacqueline McClenny, an office assistant for the First Peoples Multicultural Advising Services—a campus office that helped organize the Day of Absence—observed that because Hitchens’s razor is an “Englishman’s popularization of a Latin proverb,” it “would seem to itself be the product of at least two traditionally hierarchical, imperialist societies with an interest in disposing of inconvenient questions.”

Media professor Naima Lowe urged one of Mr. Weinstein’s defenders to read about how calls for civility are “often used to silence and/or dismiss concerns about racism.” She also said that the “white people making changes in their white supremacist attitudes and behaviors” were those “who do not immediately balk and become defensive,” instead acknowledging that “white supremacy is literally ingrained in everything.” In other words, merely defending oneself against the accusation of “white supremacy” is evidence of guilt.

The implications of such a mind-set became clear later last spring, when hundreds of students protested Mr. Weinstein’s opposition to the Day of Absence. To them, the existence of dissent was sufficient to prove the college condoned racism. Mr. Weinstein was not their only target.

After a mob occupied the library, the college’s facilities engineer, Richard Davis, wrote in an email that he believed “the students are testing how much lawlessness will be tolerated,” and “they have not found a boundary yet.” He described how two students stalked him and screamed at him, adding that he was disturbed by the lack of police. “Many of us are stating that as long as the students are not violent, their behavior is acceptable,” Mr. Davis continued. “Apparently, violence in this context is bloodshed.” (Mr. Davis retired in June.)

The protests were “loud and at times intimidating,” wrote John Hurley, Evergreen’s vice president for finance and administration. “Unfortunately some members of our community were stopped as they tried to leave campus and that was scary and others felt barricaded in their office.”

Nancy Koppelman, an American studies and humanities professor, described being “followed by white students who yelled and cursed at me, accused me of not caring about black and brown bodies, and claimed that if I did care I would follow their orders.” Ms. Koppelman, who is 5-foot-1, said the students towered over her, and “the only thing they would accept was my obedience.” She reported that the encounter so unnerved her that she was left physically shaking.

Ms. Koppelman wrote that she was worried about “features of the current protest strategy that violate the social contract, and possibly the law.” Tolerating such tactics, she argued, “may create a working environment which is too hostile for some of us to continue our employment at the college.” Her email concluded: “I have not decided whether or how to share these thoughts more widely. If I do, I will very likely be tagged as ‘a racist’ by some of my colleagues and the students they teach.”

As for Mr. Weinstein and Ms. Heying, there’s no doubt the environment at Evergreen was too hostile for them to continue their employment. The college declared in its statement: “They have agreed to resign from their faculty positions at Evergreen, effective today.”

Ms. Melchior is an editorial page writer at the Journal.

Appeared in the September 22, 2017, print edition.

@anon71262119:

I sure hope that we are not putting a College nestled in the Woods of Upper Washington…that even PROMOTES itself as “A progressive, public liberal arts and sciences college located in Olympia, Washington…”…as an example of the IP hoards that are infecting our Campuses.

Places like this and Berkeley (IMO) are no more the majority on many campuses than Liberty University’s curriculum of mandatory Prayer and Bible study is.

By NO means am I saying that IP is not a troubling trend that ultimately benefits no one (certainly not minorities…and it just seems to piss White Folks off…)…and that it in fact hurts some (like in the article you posted)…but I just think that on many campuses its a burr in people’s shoes that thankfully goes no where.

(P.S. Ask the Regents at the University of Missouri how this crap can come back to bite you in the ass quicker than you can say “Safe Space…”)

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I mostly agree with you, @Mufasa. I’m tagging @thunderbolt23 here as well.

A lot of regular people have no idea, and I think a lot of motives from ordinary people are good. I’m not an IP conspiracy theorist. In no way do I think every left-leaning professor, or every graduate student who puts out a stupid tweet represents the norm, or that everyone involved in IP are extremists who are part of some far leftist Marxist Critical Theory movement to tear down our society.

Not to you in particular, but to the topic.

That said… Campus IP, or IP extremism is also far, far from limited to places like Evergreen, Mizzou, Yale, and Berkeley. The woman who came up with Intersectional Feminism is at UCLA. Critical Theory can be found all over our universiities, which just blows my mind. Robin Di Angelo, who writes a lot in multicultural education, and who gets invited to speak as an expert on that, is very radical. She’s one of the champions of Critical Race Theory, and came originated the term white fragility, related to this idea of inherited white guilt. BTW, I took an intensive course in multicultural ed in the early 1990s, which was actually really helpful. I had no issue with the course. Things have dramatically shifted toward IP politics, which is very disturbing to me. I think the average person has no idea how much this has proliferated.

BTW, my issues with IP have nothing to do with the reparations debate. People can make reasoned arguments for or against that. My problems with it mostly center around free speech, the free exchange of ideas, and basic Enlightenment era, Age of Reason ideas about how to look for and recognize truth, like the scientific method. I really, really care about these things.
Notice how many scientists have begun speaking out against the influences of identity politics, post modernism, social deconstructionism, critical theory, and intersectionality? People like Richard Dawkins, the late Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Jerry Coyne, Steven Pinker, Bret Weinstein, Nick Christhakis, Jonathan Haidt, to name just a few. Not exactly a bunch of political conservative shills. These people are mostly liberal, in the best sense of the word. For the Americans in that goup, I doubt any of them have ever voted Republican in their lives, in fact, I think all of them I listed have outright said that they are NOT conservatives.

Scientists are concerned because they see it it as a threat to the ideas of The Enlightenment and The Age of Reason, in terms of how we go about looking at scientific data versus emotional anecdotes and narratives from certain subordinated groups, which these IP theorists like to elevate ABOVE data and facts that don’t fit their narrative of oppression and victimhood. Not that experiences don’t matter, they do. But they do not allow us to ignore facts. Anecdotes are not data. Proponents of Intersectionality and Critical Theory will flat out tell you that they reject the liberal Enlightenment era values and epistemology as biased and as holding up a racist and patriarchal society. Seriously. Where are we if we reject empiricism as fundamental to finding truth? Derrida poses the question, “Why do we privilege logic as a source of knowledge over emotion?” Think about that for a moment. And no, these people aren’t just at Berkeley or Evergreen. And yes, they are having a huge influence on our culture.

In case you don’t know this, proponents of Critical Theory and Intersectionality are very straight forward about saying they dismiss and reject logic and the scientific method, when it suits their purposes to do so, as well as the foundations of our system of laws. You can take a look at what they are publishing as research these days. BTW, about laws, I’m not talking about the unfair and uneven application of law (like the idea that Crack would carry more serious penalties, which I disagree with), I’m talking about the system of laws that form the foundations of our society. They also justify suppressing dissenting views. Free speech is seen as a weapon of the dominant group. Suppressing opposing ideas is not some unfortunate byproduct, it’s a calculated part of these IP based theories. It’s far leftist thought that advocates suppression of enemies. Do I think that most young students really understand that? Not at all. I’m very, very concerned to see the support of free speech falling dramatically among millennials.

If Identity Politics were really just this idea that certain groups need to advocate for themselves, then there’s nothing new there. We have a long history of labor unions who advocate for their members. The AARP advocates for retired people, NOW for women, the NAACP, Native American Tribes, various groups advocate for people with disabilities, LGBT issues, and so forth. I have a disabled child who has a tragic progressive neurological disease that is literally killing her slowly, so I have experiences that might be relevant to that. Sure, I do. It’s a very rare disease, but I could advocate that we spend more to find a cure before it’s too late for her, and everyone could understand the parental love and emotional urgency that goes behind that impulse. There’s nothing really new or controversial about that kind of thing, within reason. You would all probably feel some compassion, but rightly tell me that a lot more people are dying of cancer. BUT that’s not what Identity Politics has morphed into. I’m not trying to take away anyone’s right to speak or disagree. And to say that Universalism (think MLK or Fredrick Douglass), has the same goal as Tribalism? Or that Tribalism is now a necessity? Not if it just drives a wedge and is used to silence people with dissenting views.

Notice how some of the arguments here got set up so that you’re either FOR Identity Politics or you’re AGAINST minorities? Us against them. No middle ground. What about the people of color who dislike IP? What about the AA writers and academics who are writing about how IP is divisive and unhelpful, and how people like Coates do not reflect their values? Are they racists? Notice how anyone who is against IP is labeled as motivated by internal racism and bigotry, or is told something to the effect that they should “stay in their lane” or are unable to speak to the issue because of their white privilege? “Stay in your lane,” is a less offensive way of telling people who aren’t in the group to kindly “Shut the F Up.” That’s never how scientific inquiry works, and it shouldn’t be how a free society works. Try to be respectful, but don’t be fascists about speech.

Identity Politics in the current iteration is not only Tribalism, but it’s an attempt to silence dissent. I have a big, big, really BIG problem with people who don’t want free speech, or who dismiss epistemology like the scientific method and other ideas of The Enlightenment. This has no place in our universities, except over in the philosophy department where they can have at it.

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Outstanding post, my favorite part quoted above. Hear, hear.

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A couple of things. When I mentioned Fredrick Douglass and MLK as Universalists, I’m talking about statements like this.

Also, since I moved this topic over here. For people who may be trying to follow along. Here’s the Heterodox link I talked about from The Stupid Thread.

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/09/02/in-defense-of-amy-waxs-defense-of-bourgeois-values/

Also, @thunderbolt23, I think both you and @anon50325502 talked about the WSJ article about Amy Wax, written by Heather MacDonald. I don’t know if you have a regular subscription, but they ran a few very good letters to the editor. Notice, one of them quotes the Brookings institute data about poverty that I quoted in an earlier post.

In case of paywall -

Regarding Heather Mac Donald’s “Higher Ed’s Latest Taboo Is ‘Bourgeois Norms’” (op-ed, Sept. 19): The left won the culture wars that began in the 1960s and ended with cultural conservatives running for cover during the Obama years. One would think that the left would be magnanimous in victory and open to intellectual debate. After all, President Obama himself observed that children growing up without a father are more likely to live in poverty, more likely to drop out of school and more likely to wind up in prison. A married couple with children earns, on average, an income that is more than triple the income of a household headed by a single mom. That fact isn’t a license to stigmatize single moms, but it is a statistical truth—and the left apparently cannot handle the truth. With freedom, including post-1950s sexual liberation, comes responsibility. Shouting down those who call attention to the economic fallout from post-bourgeois culture change is neither responsible nor progressive.

Gene Bradley

As an immigrant from India, I am, like most of my fellow immigrants, living the American dream precisely because my family follows what the authors advocate. This also holds true, from what I know, for most East Asian immigrants, even the most liberal among us. And I am gratified to see that our adult children do this too.

We practice bourgeois norms, self-reliance, conservatism and are proud to be in America. But we personify “diversity” and are perplexed to hear rants against diversity in general, rather than against specific behavior.

Ajit Damle

Tampa, Fla.

Brookings Institution Senior Fellow Ron Haskins studied census data and testified to the Senate Finance Committee June 5, 2012 (Notable & Quotable, June 11, 2012) that young people can virtually assure they will avoid poverty by following three simple rules: get a high-school education, work full time and wait until age 21 to get married and have children. Based on the analysis, young adults who followed all three rules had a 72% chance of joining the middle class, defined at the time as income above $55,000. Violate all three rules and their chance of being poor rose to 77%.

Unfortunately, this is an outcome from which the left refuses to learn, calling it “blaming the victim.” The decisions made by individuals are more important in the fight against poverty and for increased opportunity than government programs.

V.F. Russo

State College, Pa.

What is strange about the opposition by University of Pennsylvania faculty to Amy Wax’s advice (work hard, get married, go to school, don’t drink too much) is that every one of them has followed this advice. I have spent my career in academia, and all professors whom I know have done exactly that. Why would so many of Ms. Wax’s colleagues be opposed to advice that has made them so successful?

Prof. Paul H. Rubin

Emory University

Atlanta

Who would have thought it? Judging from the reaction of today’s collegiate liberal elite to Ms. Wax’s call to return to the benefits of childbearing within marriage, gainful employment and the avoidance of crime and drug abuse, the academics would have to consider Martin Luther King Jr. a racist as well.

Stephen R. Gandy

Ridgeland, Miss.

Ms. Wax and Larry Alexander say nothing to imply white supremacy, misogyny or homophobia. They espouse traditional values. The response of Dean Ruger, Stephen Ferruolo and many of the faculty only reveals their bigotry in assuming the authors were referring to black people.

Hugh Doss

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I was really, really encouraged by this recent interview with UC Berkeley Chancellor, Carol Christ. Good for her. WHOOT!!! Seriously. I have a lot of admiration for what she said about free speech here. Good things.

One last thing. I think this is really pertinent to our times. Disagree with Identity Politics? Get labeled a racist, or white supremacist. You’re now the monster. Wait for the villagers with pitchforks.

The Practice of Ritual Defamation
http://www.lairdwilcox.com/news/defame.html

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Excellent post, @anon71262119!

I’ll have to wait until after work to really delve into it all…but what I’ve read is outstanding.

Thank you!

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Progressive left folks want a society that ensures a healthy, happy life for everyone regardless of how they were brought up, bad choices they made previously etc. It is a very utopian dream, and frankly i think a very noble dream. But, an impossible dream IMO.

I personally am very socially and economically liberal, but have STRONG Ron Swanson type leanings. The morals that govern my personal life are not extended to the ethics i want society held to because… (and this is important)… the VAST majority of people out there havent been blessed with the genetics, smarts, perspective, and background that i have and to hold them to the same super high standard that i hold myself is to invite failure.

IMO, people need to disconnect their personal moral code with what they think societal ethics should be. For example, in my personal life i expect my partner to be pro-choice, take my last name, and be so charitable and environmentally conscious that is causes us a level of economic harm. I expect this country to be pro choice, chose whatever the fuck last name you want, and to balance the economy with social welfare and the environment. Hearing other POVs is important to develop as a person, and to learn new things… its the reason why Executives want t a team that isnt afraid to offer differing opinions- it either strengthens their existing opinion or it challenges and changes them for the better.

Part of me finds this to be one of my biggest irritations with the left. They have succeeded with thought control to a point where there is little respectful debate or exchange of ideas anymore. It’s a take it leave it, you’re with us or against us mentality, and it is incredibly dangerous to the fabric of civilized society. Having lived in places like Japan where they focus so much of education on sameness, I can see the advantages (very little violent crime and a real sense of community) and disadvantages (distrust of foreigners). I want and think we can have both a community and diversity. I feel like the problem is that we abandoned that sense of training ourselves to be a community. On the other hand, I do believe much of our strength comes from the combination of so many different backgrounds and beliefs, so we need both. While I don’t want too much of the “sameness” I do think we need more than we have. Perhaps the abuse of that educational training (primarily with native Americans) may have forever poisoned it though.

The darker side of me fears that current events are putting my hopes that people from different backgrounds and belief systems can learn to respect each other at risk. I’ll have to find it, but I read an article not too long ago by an Israeli whose parents survived the holocaust, and he eventually became friends with a Palestinian. I forgot who was who, but one parent developed an optimistic viewpoint that different peoples could learn to live in harmony, and the other the pessimistic view that Jews would always need to fight for survival. I’m afraid the jury is still out in my view, and perhaps that’s the ultimate point. We will always have this fight because the “us” and “other,” while in some sense are always changing, will always be with us.

I’m frankly not sure where that leaves me. One would think that by my mid-40s and years of study would have left me with more answers, but I’m becoming much less certain of anything as I get older. I just know I want my children well-educated, more successful than me, independent of thought, kind to others, and safe from violence. My confidence in some of those is higher than others. Much isn’t in my control.

ETA: I’m rambling through several points here, but I’m on my phone.

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Cross posting on some similar thoughts. I just put up a video on @thunderbolt23 's old Mindless Partisanship Thread that gets to some of what you’re talking about I think.

Yeah, I have a few thoughts about what you said and I’ll try to come back when I have more time. I’ve had some really similar thoughts lately. We have this wonderfully diverse country, but it is really discouraging to see how we seem to be unable or unwilling to see the other side.

Ha! Same. Let’s tell ourselves this is a sign of maturity.

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Your thoughts reminded me of the saying from the Toe te Ching, “Every force, calls forth a counter-force.”

In politics, it often goes like this. I say something a little bit left, and so you say something a little bit right. So then I say something a little further left, and you say something a little further right… x 10! There has to be some fundamental desire for unity, something that pulls people together so they even have a desire to see the other side and understand. That doesn’t happen if we’ve determined that the other is the enemy, has no truth, has nothing of value. If we sense any of that, we’ll not only delight in pushing back, but we’ll feeling really justified in doing it.

I don’t have any answers in terms of fixing our polarized nation, but in our personal lives, I think we try to respect and respond to the humanity in other people. To suspect that sometimes we’re wrong, and maybe distorting the intentions of other people, or being self-righteous, blaming, assuming to understand intentions.

A lot of what we see (and do) lacks any humility, any intention to really understand or to try to help. At it’s worst, it’s just labeling and criticizing. I’ve had sort of an epiphany about that recently in myself that’s pricked my conscience a bit. Also that we humans are very, very good at protecting our perceptions of ourselves so we can be right, be the one that is hurt, be the one that was wronged, have the moral high ground. Anyway, I think that applies to both the way political parties work (our political thoughts), and in our personal relationships.

Hi there. I think some of the topics you’re thinking of maybe came from other threads, in Off Topic but I’ll try to respond to a couple of things.

Amen. We aren’t equal, and there’s no way to avoid suffering. We teach correct principles, and allow people to mostly govern themselves. To try to remove consequences for actions is neither possible, nor desirable. To achieve this “utopia” would deprive people of the freedom to make their own choices, which quickly becomes a form of hell.

@ Your comments about how you want to live your life (the specific things that you value, or that matter to you) vs. societal expectations or ethics. I think this is how a lot of us come to a primary value of individual freedom. We try to let other people have that same privilege to follow their own set of values. As much as possible, we avoid making decisions for others, or assuming we know what’s best for them, or that we can safely wield that kind of power.

@ Ron Swanson. I’m not a Parks and Rec watcher, so I had to look him up. Some very funny clips. Ha! The extreme Libertarian guy.

This is one of the dangers in social media. We are cut off from direct human contact where we can understand a person’s history and at least some of why they see the world as they do. We can’t read body language, or self effacement, or ironic hyperbole, or irony, and it becomes a battle of “likes” and the easiest way to get likes is to pick a strong position on one side and fight like hell.

This flag controversy is a good example. And look, I have a deep visceral reaction to kneeling for the flag and anthem. I have several family members who served, some of whom were KIA, one of whom put a gun to his own head, and I don’t like people screwing with that. Then again, I also know the military has been using the ceremony as a recruiting effort, and I continue to be pissed off how the country chews up and spit out veterans with little support, so I’m not sure all that flag waving is honest. What I do know is that people died defending the right of people to kneel, and many wives, sons and daughters have been handed that flag after losing fathers, brothers and sons. I stand and always will, but that’s me. And yes, I don’t agree with the protests. But it’s their right. Just an example of why a meme just won’t cut it.

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sunnbeaches, I’ve been thinking a lot about the NFL controversy as well. Take a look at this Jonathan Haidt, Bill Moyers interview. Check out the moral sliders at minute marker 17. Then look at the clip about flags from 22-24.

@thunderbolt23, we’ve talked a lot about partisanship. The entire video above is very good, but if you don’t have time to watch it, you might really like it from about minute 30 on. A really intelligent discussion about our partisan divide.

Back to symbols - You can see some really fundamental differences in the way liberals and conservatives look at symbols of loyalty to country, what is sacred. part of the disconnect, lack of communication in the current NFL debate has to do with people not recognizing that.

On the other side, we’re NOT living in a post-racial world, and it’s understandable that AAs want everyone to recognize that, and try to rally around stopping any discrimination wherever we can. We have not moved beyond our racist past in every instance, and something like 85% of AAs express some support toward BLM, so that at least tells us that in people’s real lives they feel like it’s still very much a thing. We’d have to be nuts to not think that there’s some truth to that for a lot of people, and I suspect we’ll always have that with us, but hopefully to a lesser extent.

About BLM specifically, we have lots of research over the past several years about policing in America, so we have Conservatives quoting research statistics (I believe there were at least four major studies on race and policing and the likelihood of being shot by cops, etc… over the past couple of years). Lots of conflict over what’s really happening in terms of numbers. Anyway, just lots of things that make me wonder how we’ll know when this situation improves, aside from emotional anecdotes which I think we’ll never fully fix. I’m talking real data and research, of which there is quite a lot now that doesn’t support many of the BLM assertions. We’ll always have some idiot, or some racist out there doing something.

About symbols like the flag. Some of this really comes from the kinds of things Haidt is talking about, but also about a naive understanding of what symbols mean to other people, or the ability for someone to take a historical symbol like a national flag, or the Christian cross, and redefine it to mean something discrete and limited to a certain movement, a certain place in time, and expect other humans to be able to translate and accept that new meaning.

We’re watching NFL players take a knee, as they have narrowly defined the American symbols (the flag and national anthem), as standing for police brutality and racial inequality. Regardless of the merits of that cause (and you could certainly be a lot more disrespectful), I think some of the problems in the polarization around it come from thinking that we can redefine something like this, for example. “No, no. This doesn’t mean what your society has traditionally associated with it, or what it has meant to you personally over the course of your life. For this period of time, for this specific protest, it means something else.”

Analogies are never perfect, but I was thinking it was a bit like someone saying to fellow Christians, “For me, this cross means pedophile priests. So, I hope you’ll all stand behind me when I do something disrespectful to this symbol. You shouldn’t be offended, because I’m defining the symbol to be something different here.” It’s a bit of a disconnect in understanding how imagery, symbols, language work for the other humans, to imagine that we can quickly adapt to that kind of thing, even if we wanted to.

The merits of NFL protests aside, people put more or less importance on the symbolic meaning of these iconic images. I was thinking about the flag and what it means and doesn’t mean. Here’s Magritte saying, “This is not a pipe.” It’s a bit like telling someone that this flag isn’t what you think it is.

pipe

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