T Nation

I Have a Better Routine Now

Upper / Lower split.

I’m 172cm and 75kg.

A Upper. Monday

Flat bench 3 x 10
Incline bench 3 x 10
Bent over barbell row, pronated, wide grip 3 x 10
Lat pull downs, supinated, medium grip 3 x 10
(advised as doing two heavy pushes, no shoulder press) SO lateral delt d’bell raises 3 x 10
Tricep push downs 3 x 10
Barebell curls 3 x 10
Decline crunches 3 x 10 and when becomes easy will add weight

A Lower. Tuesday.

I cannot do squats or deads at the mo due to old knee probs. If and when they feel up to it I will put squats and deads into my rouine eventually, Until then, carefully does it -

Leg press 3 x 10
Calf press 3 x 10
Glute machine (rear abduction or something, it works your glutes in isolation) 3 x 10
Hyperextension 3 x failiure, careful form, will go weighted when comfortable with it.

WED - REST / steady state cardio, swim or elliptical. Or if not feel rested, just rest.

B Upper. Thursday.

Chins - 5 sets of v low reps at the moment so when done will do 3 x 10 lat pull down, wide grip, good form.
Dumbell rows 3 x 10
Flat bench 3 x 10
Incline flies 3 x 10
Arnold press or millitary barbell press 3 x 10
dumbell curls 3 x 10
tricep dips 3 x 10

B Lower. Friday

Leg extension 3 x 10
Ham curls 3 x 10
calf press 3 x 10

(My legs are shortish and pretty thick compared to upper bod so am comfortable with this level of intensity for legs and I can lift way more with them than my upper body.)

Sat rest.
Sun, some steady state low intensity cardio if I feel rested.

I have tried 5 x 5 and 4 x 6 in the past and it never gave me as good hypertrophy as 3 x 10 so i will stick with 3 x 10 or 3 x 8 if that is better advised.

I have bought 3 months worth of ‘Gold Standard’ Whey protien powder which gives you tons of bacs and protien precursors and all that stuff. It’s a goodun, most expensive in the store here in Shanghai.

At my current 75kg I will go for around 140g protien a day and clean carbs and veg.

I will take a 25g serving of the whey powder and a portion of carbs an hour before each workout and another 25g shake after. The other 90g protien will be my 3 meals a day, rice or pasta with meat / fish / eggs etc and servings of veg.

On non training days I guess take a protien shake in the a.m. and one before bed?

All thoughts on my exercise choices and reps / sets welcomed. Also whether I should do 4x a week or 3x a week. My work is not very physical, so no probs there.

Is abs and lower back hypers just once a week good or should I do 2x?

I DO NOT do warm up sets, just 3 straight work sets with the same weight after some light cardio and stretching, and when I can do more than 3 x 10, I up the wieght and if I need to on third set, do a drop set until I am making 3 sollid sets of ten without the drop set and then up the wieght. This is because I like to keep things simple as possible.

I am looking to get lean gains and when I am at around a good body fat percentage and look for my height and weight to be quite honest with you, I will progress obviously, as will get stronger, or if I platue will change routine after 3 - 6 months. But as I said, tbh when I am a solid lean 75 - 80 kg I will be looking to maintain so will not up protein too much and will just look to stay in that shape.

I like the lean defined look, but not the bulky look. No offense to anyone. Think a middle wieght boxer or a welterweight mma fighter - that is my preferred look, is right for my weight and height and is where I’ll be wanting to stay. Any advice as to how one ACTUALLY DOES THAT - MAINTAIN, will also be very welcomed.

Cheers.

[quote]leon36 wrote:

I DO NOT do warm up sets, just 3 straight work sets with the same weight
[/quote]

Seriously? I think I know where your knee problems come from.

Looks dumb.

How about you do something, stick with it, and adjust when it stops working? This is the 4th or 5th routine you posted to have critiqued in the last week.

[quote]leon36 wrote:
I like to keep it simple - go in, lift the wieghts I can for 3 sets and gtfo without thinking too much.[/quote]

That’s from your other thread.

Take your own advice. Do a 3x5 program for a few months. If you really want to bodybuild and don’t care about strength, here: http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/reg_parks_5x5_program

You do all know that 5 x 5 = 25 reps and 3 x 8 = 24 reps and 6 x 4 = 24 reps and all thusly equal same poundage shifted?

Please tell me you at least know that.

And in general 5 x 5 is for stength over hypertrophy and 3 x 8-10 for a good compromise of hypertropy, endurance and strength.

At least tell me you know that.

[quote]leon36 wrote:
You do all know that 5 x 5 = 25 reps and 3 x 8 = 24 reps and 6 x 4 = 24 reps and all thusly equal same poundage shifted?

Please tell me you at least know that.

And in general 5 x 5 is for stength over hypertrophy and 3 x 8-10 for a good compromise of hypertropy, endurance and strength.

At least tell me you know that.[/quote]

Weight used in a 5x5 and weight used in a 3x8 are going to be different. Therefore stimulus will be different.

[quote]leon36 wrote:
You do all know that 5 x 5 = 25 reps and 3 x 8 = 24 reps and 6 x 4 = 24 reps and all thusly equal same poundage shifted?

Please tell me you at least know that.

And in general 5 x 5 is for stength over hypertrophy and 3 x 8-10 for a good compromise of hypertropy, endurance and strength.

At least tell me you know that.[/quote]

It doesn’t quite work that way for most people. If that logic held true then 5x5 would also be the same as 25x1 or 1x25. The 6x4 is a close comparison because it would be closer to the same %ORM as 5x5.

I for one think your exercise selection to be innovative. No, scratch that. Inspired. And your set rep scheme… well all I can say is “genius”. If this routine isn’t the one that turns you into some brad pitt in fight club ripped and lean looking mother fucker I don’t honestly know what’s wrong with the world.

leon, have you ever thought of maybe using a workout template until you’ve got a little more time under your belt? Your exercise selections are oddly placed and you have a lot of volume on your upper days, your lower days, not so much.

If your goal is hypertrophy, you will do better with 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps than you will with a 5x5 or 4x6. You’ve got that part right.

When you stated this: “I will take a 25g serving of the whey powder and a portion of carbs an hour before each workout and another 25g shake after. The other 90g protien will be my 3 meals a day, rice or pasta with meat / fish / eggs etc and servings of veg.”, did you mean that you will be having three meals a day + your three shakes or that you are having three shakes as meals and eating rice or pasta with meat, fish or eggs as one meal? Hopefully not the latter but I was a little confused so just asking.

What type of knee problem do you have? I ask because sometimes the leg extension is not really the best idea.

[quote]leon36 wrote:
You do all know that 5 x 5 = 25 reps and 3 x 8 = 24 reps and 6 x 4 = 24 reps and all thusly equal same poundage shifted?

Please tell me you at least know that.

And in general 5 x 5 is for stength over hypertrophy and 3 x 8-10 for a good compromise of hypertropy, endurance and strength.

At least tell me you know that.[/quote]

Neurological adaption that needs to take place in your body will not happen with 3x8 as much as it will with 5x5, due to weight differences and separations of 1RM%. 5x5 is not for strength over hypertrophy, and 3x8 is not a compromise of hypertrophy and endurance while building strength.

The physique you want is built easily and the fact you want a small physique and are arguing tells me you don’t want to train. You’re just addicted to working out and you want to do what you want to do, convinced everyone on this board doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

You’ve been in the game for 3 weeks. Shut the fuck up and learn, or do what you want. Either way, stop posting.

P.S. - For arguments sake, let’s say you bench 100lbs for 5x5. 5x5 w/ 100lbs = 2500. You would not use this weight for 8 reps. So let’s say, 3x8 w/ 80lbs = 1920. 6x4 would be a little heavier, lets say 110lbs. 6x4 w/ 110lbs = 2640. The poundage moved is not the same, though the total reps are the same.

Regardless, total volume vs. intensity are different things. Working up to a 1RM is different than benching 5x5. Benching 5x5 will get me more volume than working up to a 1RM, most likely, but the 1RM will get me more results. This is dependent on training age and experience with a certain movement. Volume has it’s place, as does intensity.

Please see my replies to your quoted post - inside the quote box after each question.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
“leon, have you ever thought of maybe using a workout template until you’ve got a little more time under your belt? Your exercise selections are oddly placed and you have a lot of volume on your upper days, your lower days, not so much.”

Dave Draper and various other trainers reccomend this Routine - what more is there to say?

"If your goal is hypertrophy, you will do better with 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps than you will with a 5x5 or 4x6. You’ve got that part right. "

Yes, I thought as much. I am going for hypertrophy mostly. I will of course be getting stringer also into the bargain, just not as much as I would on 5 x 5 which I have done before.

“When you stated this: “I will take a 25g serving of the whey powder and a portion of carbs an hour before each workout and another 25g shake after. The other 90g protien will be my 3 meals a day, rice or pasta with meat / fish / eggs etc and servings of veg.”, did you mean that you will be having three meals a day + your three shakes or that you are having three shakes as meals and eating rice or pasta with meat, fish or eggs as one meal? Hopefully not the latter but I was a little confused so just asking.”

The shakes PLUS THE THREE MEALS A DAY OPF COURSE!

“What type of knee problem do you have? I ask because sometimes the leg extension is not really the best idea.”

Not sure. Physiotherapist says there is nothing at all wrong with my knees physically, so it might just be nerve damage. I know that when I am tired or have drank alcohol it gets worse, if I’ve been booze free and insomnia free for a cpl days it dissapears. I cannot afford an MRI…

[/quote]

Well yesterday I did

3 x 10 leg press
3x10 calf press
3 x 10 goblet squats (only with a 10kg d’bell out of fear)
as well as 3 x 10 hypers and 3 x 10 on this ‘arse abduction machine’ as I call it.

And then I ran the ten min run home and walked up ther whole 13 florrs to my apt instead of taking the elevator and I was shocked to sday the least that the knees feel fine!

As to the knee issue itself.

One day during a period of overtraining (Full body 3 x a week plus treadmill HIIT, step sprints and tabata sprints and hapkido 3 x a week) They had been getting really sore after doing full bod workout invcluding squats and SLDL’s and then doing HIIT on the treadmill. One day I was walking to the bus stop and my knees gave out.

No pain, just a feeling there was ‘nothing there’ and I couldn’t support myself on them. The doc said weakened menisci. Had a yr of daily physio, you know, hot pack, ultra sound, manipulation etc. Then eventually although I could still feel the pain or ‘twinge’ he said there was no longer anything physically wrong with them and my legs were actually very strong.

These days they feel bad if I sprint too much on the elliptical for too long or leg press at an angle over the reccomended ammount to try and ‘feel the press’ more in my hams and quads. They are fine after swimming and fine after most leg movements with the cable machines.

But after the goblet squats yesterday they were fine too, which blew my mind as I feared they would crumble to bits! I think I’ll do less sprints for cardio (I use elliptical or swimming) elliptical and try and avoid leg cardio overtraining. W ill bring squats into my training for sure now and maybe even deads eventually - but will go light and slow with those.

Cheers.

[quote]mlupica wrote:
I for one think your exercise selection to be innovative. No, scratch that. Inspired. And your set rep scheme… well all I can say is “genius”. If this routine isn’t the one that turns you into some brad pitt in fight club ripped and lean looking mother fucker I don’t honestly know what’s wrong with the world. [/quote]

Many certified trainers on the net reccomend this EXACT split for intermediate trainers, which I am.

And your sarcasm is almost very exact, I PREFER the brad pit in fight Club look, but a bit more bulk. As I said before - think welterweight MMA fighter or middle weight boxer. Want to do movies - Di Nero in Raging Bull. But the bodies of the peple in actual b’builder mags look like horrid freaks to me (cutler, coleman et al) and I prefer the physiques in Men’s Fitness or Men’s Health.

Each to our own.

I boxed at middleweight for several years, an I’d never done anything other than pull ups, pressups, and hill sprints. I had just over 13" arms. Brad Pitt in fight club does not look like any fighter I have trained with, or fought against. Brad Pitt in fight club, except with more muscle, does not look like any boxer at middleweight. If you want to look like a fighter, drop the weight training, sprint, dip, pressups and pull ups, and heavy bag work will make you look like one.

Fighters tend to drop a lot of weight for fights as well (GSP is supposed to drop from over 190lbs down to 170, in the space of a few days). You will not replicate that look for walking around with your shirt off. Noone looks like pro fighters on weigh in day all the time, not even pro fighters.

I wanted to take up training at a local MMA gym but I can’t with my knees. Tried doing some of the old hapkido kicks and moves and it’s not the sort of thing I can do anymore, makes the insiodes of my knees sore. Could do just boxing, but even then, the jump rope would kill my knees.

Fair enough. Your goals are nobody’s business but your own. That said, you would be surprised how unremarkable most top fighters physiques are. I toyed with going pro, and have sparred some top pros, and being a good fighter has bugger all to do with pretty mirror muscles.

[quote]leon36 wrote:

[quote]mlupica wrote:
I for one think your exercise selection to be innovative. No, scratch that. Inspired. And your set rep scheme… well all I can say is “genius”. If this routine isn’t the one that turns you into some brad pitt in fight club ripped and lean looking mother fucker I don’t honestly know what’s wrong with the world. [/quote]

Many certified trainers on the net reccomend this EXACT split for intermediate trainers, which I am.

And your sarcasm is almost very exact, I PREFER the brad pit in fight Club look, but a bit more bulk. As I said before - think welterweight MMA fighter or middle weight boxer. Want to do movies - Di Nero in Raging Bull. But the bodies of the peple in actual b’builder mags look like horrid freaks to me (cutler, coleman et al) and I prefer the physiques in Men’s Fitness or Men’s Health.

Each to our own.[/quote]
I think you missed my point. So, I will be more blunt. I think your a troll, and this whole thread is ridiculous, with no aim or goal other than your amusement.
And two other points:

  1. I have no idea what you specifically mean by intermediate trainee, but you are in a beginner forum.
  2. No program on the face of the earth can make you look like Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman without a bus load of steroids. So honestly, what the hell are you talking about.

[quote]leon36 wrote:
Please see my replies to your quoted post - inside the quote box after each question.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
“leon, have you ever thought of maybe using a workout template until you’ve got a little more time under your belt? Your exercise selections are oddly placed and you have a lot of volume on your upper days, your lower days, not so much.”

Dave Draper and various other trainers reccomend this Routine - what more is there to say?

"If your goal is hypertrophy, you will do better with 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps than you will with a 5x5 or 4x6. You’ve got that part right. "

Yes, I thought as much. I am going for hypertrophy mostly. I will of course be getting stringer also into the bargain, just not as much as I would on 5 x 5 which I have done before.

“When you stated this: “I will take a 25g serving of the whey powder and a portion of carbs an hour before each workout and another 25g shake after. The other 90g protien will be my 3 meals a day, rice or pasta with meat / fish / eggs etc and servings of veg.”, did you mean that you will be having three meals a day + your three shakes or that you are having three shakes as meals and eating rice or pasta with meat, fish or eggs as one meal? Hopefully not the latter but I was a little confused so just asking.”

The shakes PLUS THE THREE MEALS A DAY OPF COURSE!

“What type of knee problem do you have? I ask because sometimes the leg extension is not really the best idea.”

Not sure. Physiotherapist says there is nothing at all wrong with my knees physically, so it might just be nerve damage. I know that when I am tired or have drank alcohol it gets worse, if I’ve been booze free and insomnia free for a cpl days it dissapears. I cannot afford an MRI…

[/quote]
[/quote]

If Dave Draper and others recommend this routine, then what exactly are you asking?

[quote]mlupica wrote:
I think you missed my point. So, I will be more blunt. I think your a troll, and this whole thread is ridiculous, with no aim or goal other than your amusement. [/quote]

Personally, I disagree.

I think it’s more “I want to look better than I do now but I don’t want to look like a huge bb-er; I’ve done a lot of cardio and I’m going to keep doing it to stay sane; I’ve read a fair amount but I’m still confused, some stuff worked for me, some didn’t, and I’m worried about doing a program that will waste my time”. And, that his lack of confidence in what he’s doing, when combined with a certain amount of denial, causes him to come across a bit more overconfident/certain with things, rather than humble. Which I agree, sounds troll-like at first glance.

Not everyone is able to say “I want to look a certain way, but I really have no clue what I need to do, can you please help me?” Instead, it’s “I want to look a certain way; I used my best guess and came up with this program, what do you think?” some feedback “how about this one?”, etc.

OP:
This might be common sense, but here’s my best advice. If you want to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club, do a side by side comparison between a picture of him then, and a picture of you now. Figure out where he’s bigger than you. Find some exercises to train those muscles, and find a set/rep scheme that works for those muscle groups. Train those areas. If you’re not seeing adequate growth, focus on your food intake. There’s a ton of knowledgeable people on this site. If you start stalling, change something up; again, search/ask for advice here.

Repeat until you’re built like that.

There are some good stickies in the bodybuilding forum if you’re wondering how much volume you should be training muscle groups, etc.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]leon36 wrote:
Please see my replies to your quoted post - inside the quote box after each question.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
“leon, have you ever thought of maybe using a workout template until you’ve got a little more time under your belt? Your exercise selections are oddly placed and you have a lot of volume on your upper days, your lower days, not so much.”

Dave Draper and various other trainers reccomend this Routine - what more is there to say?

"If your goal is hypertrophy, you will do better with 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps than you will with a 5x5 or 4x6. You’ve got that part right. "

Yes, I thought as much. I am going for hypertrophy mostly. I will of course be getting stringer also into the bargain, just not as much as I would on 5 x 5 which I have done before.

“When you stated this: “I will take a 25g serving of the whey powder and a portion of carbs an hour before each workout and another 25g shake after. The other 90g protien will be my 3 meals a day, rice or pasta with meat / fish / eggs etc and servings of veg.”, did you mean that you will be having three meals a day + your three shakes or that you are having three shakes as meals and eating rice or pasta with meat, fish or eggs as one meal? Hopefully not the latter but I was a little confused so just asking.”

The shakes PLUS THE THREE MEALS A DAY OPF COURSE!

“What type of knee problem do you have? I ask because sometimes the leg extension is not really the best idea.”

Not sure. Physiotherapist says there is nothing at all wrong with my knees physically, so it might just be nerve damage. I know that when I am tired or have drank alcohol it gets worse, if I’ve been booze free and insomnia free for a cpl days it dissapears. I cannot afford an MRI…

[/quote]
[/quote]

If Dave Draper and others recommend this routine, then what exactly are you asking?

[/quote]

Why anyone would doubt his reccomendations and accuse the routine as being shite.

Actually, I accept that even though I have trained on and off for 16 yrs, I am a beginner as haven’t worked out (with wieghts) for over 2 yrs and most of that time was spent drinking a lot of booze…

Tried the 4 day upper / lower. Damned killer. Exhausted on 2nd day and most of 3rd day (rest day.)

Going back to my tried and trusted 3 sets x 10 reps full body 3 x a week (as reccomended by many experts I’m not allowed to link to and in fact is what trainers used to do before the steroid era…)

A.

Flat bench
Horizontal row
Military press
Squat
Bicep curls
Heavy abs

B.

Incline bench
Chins or Lat pull downs until can hit the numbersa on the chins
Dumbell lateral deltoid raises (2 x 12)
Deadlifts
calf press
Tricep push downs

Mon / wed / fri - ABA / BAB

Tues - cardio
Thurs - cardio

Sat sun - rest.

You’ll see it’s very simmilar to starting strength / madcow etc, bar the rep ranges.

I am considering ham curls, but I think deads should be enough and that is enough volume.

If I was a troll, I’d post gay pics or something. I just don’t get the blindess to 3 x 10 full body workout around here when many other repsected sites and trainers reccomend it.

It seems to be “The first rule of T-Nation is you do some variation of 5 x 5 if you’re a beginner”

The 2nd rule of…

etc…