I Got Stronger and Fatter. What Next?

Life is too short to not be doing what you want to do. Maybe one day you’ll figure out you don’t need to obsess over your levels of body fat, but until then, if being leaner is what you want, then eating less and better is what you need to do. Maybe once you’re leaner you’ll realize you don’t like what you see and you need to gain more muscle. But get there first, then judge. Getting lean after having been fat for a long time (possibly for most of your life so far) is a terrific feeling, an experience everyone should go through at least once, and it’ll change your perspective of eating for success.

You said you’re eating well already. Write out exactly what you eat in a given day. Foods and quantities. Figure out how many calories that is. Decrease that and weigh yourself in a week. You lost 1-2 lbs? Good. Keep on. You didn’t? Time for a bigger cut in calories. 200 more maybe.

This is the path to getting lean. Unlike with getting big and strong, there aren’t others.

They both have points. It is impossible to lose weight without being in a caloric deficit, so Samul is 100% correct. You can lose weight on Twinkies. However, for many people, eating only healthy foods is a great way to create a slight deficit without really trying, so Evolv is correct as well. Personally, I eat as much food as I want all day long and have never been fat because I’m eating mostly chicken rice and vegetables. That doesn’t work for everyone, though.

Eating HEALTH-y foods is probably just a good idea for HEALTH. So if you’re fine with your current body fat and want to be in better shape, cleaning up your food choices is a good idea. If you really want to drop fat, counting calories is a good idea, but you should still probably eat healthy.

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summed up perfectly

If my goal was functional fitness, I’d try avoid getting so big that breathing becomes harder.

Pick a functional fitness goal, eat and train for that goal, track your performance against your goals and let your body do what it does - some of those 350lbs NFL guys are doing their blocking job and still running 100m in crazy times - pretty functional.

I appreciate that and I appreciate you taking the time to convey your thoughts/ideas as well!

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Okay. Let’s rewind a bit. It’s my impression that I failed in adequately expressing myself the first time around, so I’d like to take a few steps back and clarify a few things first before replying to at least some of what you have written here in this post. I’m not sure it benefits either of us — or anyone else — for me to respond to each paragraph.

First, rewinding. Your disagreement with @Evolv was not unreasonable, but you’ll notice I used a certain word: “combatative”. I believed that there was another way for you to express your point of view, but I fear I fell into the exact same trap as you. Rather than replying in a “yes, and…”-sense both you and I made the choice to respond in a “I disagree”-sense.

That’s the main reason I got involved, really. I’ve interacted with you plenty on here, and lent you an eye on a different online community other than this one and it is my impression (granted, I may be wrong) that your communication pattern doesn’t consistently result in you getting your point across but rather results into disagreement. And, while it is perfectly healthy to not agree with everyone, if I were in your shoes it’d be my preference if despite with disagreeing with one another both parties manage to see the others point.

Hopefully, that makes it clear. I’m a bit sleep-deprived so it’s quite possible that what I’m expressing here in text fails to express what my mind is adding in-between the lines. I certainly hope not. But, a brutally honest TL;DR: if you’d written your response in a slightly different way, much like you were in the beginning

I wouldn’t have written anything. Probably.


Now, an attempt to respond to your reply.

Absolutely, I have no arguments there. Nor do I have any arguments with this,

But I do not agree with this,

as long as one adheres to this,

Note that I’m not saying that it is impossible to undo, but I’m not in agreement with you that it’s too easy — even more so if an individual makes conscious choices to opt for the less caloric dense varieties when in doubt, reserving the more caloric dense varieties for after a workout. Granted, it’s not a perfect model, and I won’t defend it ad infinitum. Just offering it as an alternative to tracking calories at least when starting out to make habitual changes.

I haven’t read it. I wouldn’t dispute that there is a hierarchy of importance that goes roughly,

  1. Calories
  2. Macro-distribution
  3. Micronutrients/gut-biome impact
  4. Nutrient timing

I also believe there are other aspects beyond those that do matter. These are harder to quantify. But, enjoyment, satiety, digestion are some parameters I’d keep in mind.

Right, and my argument is that going into a deficit isn’t the first step to take for all individuals. Making decent food choices might be the first step. If someone isn’t eating a decently clean diet, then I think going into a deficit is short-sighted if it’d be an alternative to first make habitual changes to food sources before going into a structured deficit. As an example, I’ll take you @samul. You have training down, and you eat reasonably clean. If you want to lose fat, then relative to where you are and seeing as you don’t seem to have any mental problems related to dieting then yes, going for a 500kcal deficit per day is a reasonable first step.

To continue the metaphor, starting with the empty bar in a diet-context means different things for different people. A lot of us that are regulars on this forum have similar starting points, but that goes out the window in the Beginners section.

It’s fine. I have my own n=1 experience too, and that impacts how I respond in these matters. This summarises my experience fairly well,

bild

@EyeDentist wrote something absolutely beautiful related to this,

and what I’m arguing is that depending on one’s starting point one should at least consider starting with this,

and start thinking about how you’re going to eat for the rest of your life.

and retain weight (assuming you aren’t at an unhealthy, obese weight), and once that becomes second nature tweak the intake using a vertical approach. The reason I mention this is because OP does not fit this description:


I wasn’t defending him as much as “attacking” you if we are going to use those words. I don’t really agree in whole with either one of you. I read what you both write and go “yes, but…” a lot.

In the context from which you asked that, all I can say is this: if I eat 3000 kcal clean, I’ll have so much energy to do stuff with. I’ll inherently be more active. Not maybe to the point of putting me into a deficit (fat loss) but certainly enough to make the surplus less aggressive. And, those calories will be feeding activity that is beneficial to me. I’ll be getting more fresh air, doing added mobility work, and having a lot of fun using my body as a medium. Repeat 365 days and I’ll be more physically equipped than if I were eating trash.

No argument there, but I like to consider things other than solely fat loss seeing as in relation to

eating also triggers other things. An influx of energy, with which to do things. Happiness. Sadness. :woman_shrugging:


Random side-bars

Isn’t rice quite low in the micronutrient department? And quite high in the arsenic department unless properly soaked etc.

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That’s Chinese rice… the OP and @samul should be fine😅
That said, I find rice to be quite a waste of calories if trying to cut and too filling when trying to bulk

Dude, there was nothing combative about his reply. He was stating a fact. Clean or not if you eat above maintenance you will gain weight. Lifting weights does not burn many calories so, “eating clean and training correctly” is not going to keep fat gain at bay.

If your maintenance is 2000 calories 3000 calories will make you feel like shit and get fat. Not only from the extra calories but, the volume due to it being “clean” food. You will not have boundless energy, you will not magically be training more.

You eat rice because it is an easy to digest carb source. Not for the micronutrients.

You overthink diet and training too much. You make diet/training plans with unnecessary detail and you are now considering fat loss blitz…why? Where you not trying to gain muscle? You are not fat, you do not carry much muscle.

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When have you cut or bulked? You look exactly the same in all your photos.

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Maybe not, that was my subjective interpretation.

Fair. I was speaking from my experience and the difference between my maintenance and 3k at that time wasn’t that big so that it caused those issues.

Nothing magic about it. I had plenty of fuel to make due with and time and opportunity to do so.

He was asking what was bad about rice. Its the only downside to it that I could think of.

True

True

I think I’ve been quite candid about it. Is the why rhetorical?

Absolutely

I agree. And yet I feel as if I am (relating back to your earlier why)

No argument here.

True, but my parents have made me eat plenty of rice.

Just doing a thought experiment :sweat_smile:

Evening all,

I’ve finally read through everything, including all the articles. Thank you for so much input l.

To be clear, I’m only interested in fitness and health, not looks. They often overlap, but I don’t need to be as lean as a competitive bodybuilder.

What’s interesting to me is that everyone seems to have suggested lifting heavy and conditioning at the same time if I eventually want both, rather than 3 months of one than 3 months of the other. That’s really pleasing for me because I prefer to train both at the same time. Thanks for that :slight_smile:

However, the diet side I confess I’m super confused as to what to do on such a fundamental point.

So for simplicity, I think I only have 2 questions and then 4 options of what I should actually do. Can you tell me if I should do A, B, C or D below?

The only other thing I’d say is that I’d enjoy doing A the most. It “feels” the most fun and seems balanced.

1: Do I need to drop fat? (for better conditioning or for heart health etc - don’t care about seeing abs etc).

If no to 1 above, should I:

A: Shoot for maintenance over the week, with more Kcal on heavier lifting days and lower kcal on non-lifting days. I’ll lift heavy and do conditioning. Result: Stronger, leaner (because pro rata fat % lower due to more muscle) and better conditioned.

I’ll assume that my ability to increase strength won’t be hurt by “only” being in maintenance and not surplus.

OR

B: Eat surplus. Lift heavy and do conditioning. Eat deficit at a later date. Result: Stronger and better conditioned, but fatter before I eat deficit in 6 months’ time.

If yes to question 1 above…

2: Can I build strength on a deficit?

If yes, should I:

C: Be on a deficit: lift heavy and bring in some conditioning. Result: stronger, leaner and better conditioned.

If no to question 2 above, should I:

D: Be on a surplus, lift heavy and do some conditioning. Result: Get stronger, better conditioned and fatter.

E: Be on a deficit, lift heavy and do some conditioning. Result: Lose/maintain strength, get better conditioned and reduce fat

Thanks again everyone. Hoping I can get that clarity now and crack on.

Again.

How tall are you?

What are you eating and how are you training?

You wrote you are on a 100 calorie deficit but, have not written what you eat or how much.

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There’s a very accomplished user on here, @T3hPwnisher, whose advice has largely changed my perspective on training and eating.

I’ll sum up what I think his philosophy on this stuff is. I’m not trying to be him, so this is my personal interpretation, if he feels I didn’t describe it well enough, I’ll leave it to him.

The answers to the questions “what should I do”, “what’s the best way to reach my goals,” are:

You should do what you want. Is that being leaner? Drop fat. How? Eat less and find a way that keeps you consistent while doing it. It can be through finding your favorite low-calorie foods or through sheer discipline. The latter hardly ever fails.

Can you build strength during a deficit? Does it really matter? If you want to get leaner, you are going to need to be in a deficit. You can’t get around that. So it doesn’t matter if you can or can’t build strength while you’re at it.

Therefore, you train as hard as you can, condition as hard as you can; you give it your best effort. You can’t quantify this. You need to know you’re giving it your best effort. You’re gonna get to the end of your day saying, “I’m not where I want to be yet, but I did all that was in my power to get closer to it. And tomorrow I’ll do the same to get one step closer yet.” Only then, will you find out whether building strength, increasing conditioning, and getting leaner at the same time is possible. If it is, it’s a win. If it isn’t, it’s a double win because you’re now leaner and you know what you can’t do. Time to find out what you can do.

I could spoil the answer to you and say that, when proper effort is applied, it is indeed possible to gain strength in a deficit, but what fun would it be? Find it out, then come back and tell me how much you love the progress you made which you didn’t think was possible.

Did I answer all of your questions?

P.S. Start a training log if you haven’t already, and a food journal as well. You were asked what you eat three times and still haven’t replied. The things I don’t like to talk about are usually the ones I know I’m fucking up the most. So get out of your comfort zone and you’ll become a better version of yourself all around.

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No - not if you want to get stronger

Yes do this. Only eat a small surplus and keep the diet fairly clean. If you have survived this long as a human and don’t know the difference between eating healthy and eating shite then I can help you.

The only things to add are, consistency and time. Now start a log and do some work.

You’re on the right track(train for performance, add conditioning, clean up diet) but also overcomplicating things a bit.

Make one main change for the next 12 weeks and evaluate.
-Basically add conditioning/change training to a program like I suggested and keep diet about the same or keep training the same and put all the focus on diet.

IMO no need to cut calories further, from your other post I see you are in your thirties so I presume you have a career, responsibilities and a life, maybe kids. So basically do what gives you the most energy for those(hint feeling flat from low calories, no bueno). I believe Samul is 19 and a student so coming from a different place

For clarity go through steps here…

If want to push it down the line try this…

Evening all,

@samul I previously avoided listing out my exact diet because I didn’t want a debate around a specific food to take everyone off topic. My thinking is that my original question was about what I should be pursuing (fat loss, strength gain or conditioning) and that you can’t decide what diet to have until you decide what you want to achieve. However:

I can tell you that when I was underweight at 70kg (154lbs), and felt generally awful (tired, weak, IBS), I was eating around 2,200-2,300 kcal. I really don’t want to go there again.

I’ve been eating 3,000 - 3,100 to gain the weight/strength listed previously. The diet hasn’t been filthy, but not clean; still mostly whole foods, lots of meat and veg, but big portions of potatoes and rice with my meals and 4 meals a day. Biggest culprit by far was eating out 4 times per week with work guys for lunch at street food places.

Example day when gaining weight:

Breakfast:
3 fried eggs on 2 toast

Lunch 1:
Salad and chicken

Lunch 2:
Chicken, rice, Broccoli on a clean day OR steak, chips, salad OR Thai noodle [these last 2 would be eating out with work]

Dinner:
Jacket Potato, chicken, 2 veg

Snacks:
4 Nairns ginger oat biscuits (oat-based, lower sugar biscuit, but still ultimately a biscuit).
After dinner 1 to 2 squares of dark chocolate

I’ll add in my partner’s perspective which is that even with my extra fat I look the healthiest I have, I’m at my strongest and fastest I’ve ever been and also, somewhat unbelievably, by eating everything my IBS has magically been cured.

I am 178cm (5 foot 10), @lucasmon

Having read everyone’s thoughts, both on the specifics of training but also on mindset/overall philosophies, I’ve decided on a path.

I think that @RampantBadger is correct in his points about over thinking. I am prone to (genuine) OCD and therefore want The Correct Answer and The Exact Correct Training. My brain finds it hard to accept that there is an element of intuition, “see how you feel”; the art as well as the science. However, it’s probably true that no one knows exactly how minor nuances will effect an individual and also that trusting intuition is a generally better way to live life for good mental health :blush:.

I think the point about other priorities is also good. I don’t have kids, but I sold my house to start a business a few years ago and that feels like a child that needs constant attention! I should channel my most detailed, OCD-thoughts into that.

Having thought about it all I’m therefore going to:

  1. Carry on strength training, but have a period in the slightly higher rep ranges (4x8-3x12 rather than 2x2 – 4x5) - just an example.
  2. Add in conditioning (which will involve some strength/power work (e.g. Kettlebells) in the even higher rep ranges. This is my primary change that I’ll focus on.
  3. I’ll add some conditioning goals, and probably even some higher-rep-range strength targets, too.
  4. I’m not specifically aiming for deficit/maintenance/surplus, but I’ll rather try to be more intuition-led. I’m going to remove the ‘dirtiest’ elements of my diet, which will naturally result in a small drop in Kcal. If I notice negative effects (fatigue, reduced output), either in this cycle or when I return to heavier weights (see point 5) , then I’ll re-think.
  5. After this cycle (not sure if 4, 8 or 12 weeks) my plan is to keep the conditioning (but maybe scale back a bit), but reduce the reps on strength work and increase the weight to push my 1RMs up again.

My prediction is that I’ll probably lose some fat and improve my conditioning. I think I may gain strength in the higher rep ranges I’m working in, partly due to better conditioning and having more energy to finish reps. I’ve actually been training like this for 2 weeks already and my muscles have definitely grown (probably all the 4x8 work). My hope is that my low rep strength remains on the big three so that when I move on to the next cycle I don’t feel I have to cover old ground again.

Planned example diet (total 2,900, so slightly less than before):

Breakfast:
2 eggs (125 kcal), 2 toast (200kcal – it’s a small piece), margarine (100kcal)
Workout normally goes here

Lunch:
Fruit smoothie (250kcal), Rice (400 kcal), tuna (200 kcal), big salad, saladcream (100 kcal)

Dinner:
Jacket potato (350 kcal), margarine (75kcal), steak, fried (350kcal), Broccoli (50kcal), Peas (50kcal)

Post dinner:
2 square dark chocolate (100 kcal)

Other/snacks:
Tea with skimmed throughout the day (150kcal), 3 oat biscuits (150 kcal)

This comes out at 2,650. I actually want to be at 2,900, however I think I will because over the course of a week I’ll have:

• 3 bottles of beer, which averages to 50kcal extra per day
• 3 “somethings”, at 400 kcal each, averaging out to 171kcal. This could be anything from snacking on a couple of sausages to a pudding. If I decide I need to reduce more than I have done, this will be what is targeted. However, this category is also kinda the essence of pleasure from life, so if my conditioning is improving I won’t drop this.

The total of the proposed diet is therefore just under 2,900.

Note: I’m happier making quantitative changes than qualitive changes to my diet because for the first time in my life I no-longer have IBS. I generally respond well to eating wholemeal carbs, for example.

Thanks again everyone for your input. It really is super appreciated.

Why do you want to be at 2.9k calories? If you quote on quote got fat from eating 3.1k calories, there is no way you’re losing fat at an appreciable rate (or even at all) on only 200 calories less. If you’re gaining fat at that caloric intake, you might be anywhere from 300 to 500 calories above maintenance (possibly more), so if you want to aim for a 500 calorie deficit, you’re going to have to decrease your intake by anywhere from 800 to 1000 calories.

You can do it progressively if you aren’t used to it, but I don’t really recommend that. If you even decrease by 200 calories each week, it’ll take you around a month to get to the intake you should be at, and that’s pretty much wasted time. Remember: you don’t want to be dieting for too long. You should aim for that sweet spot that gets you there as fast as possible and without going too low with the calories.

I usually have 3.1k calories daily as well when I’m gaining mass. When I cut, I go to 2000-2,200 calories. It works just fine for me. I bet if you do it and stick to it (no extra beers and bullshit, only eat what you decide in advance) for 6-8 weeks, you’ll be amazed by the results.

Summing up:

  • train hard 3-5 days a week. Focus on beating your pr’s and aim for gaining strength
  • eat 2000-2200 calories a day. Have 1 g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Slightly more if so you feel. Partition the remaining calories between carbs and fats however you prefer
  • have lots of veggies to keep you full and choose mostly nutritious foods
  • don’t neglect conditioning. Do 1-2 hard conditioning sessions a week, and as many easy conditioning sessions you want. Auto regulate on this. You can ride a bike, take a walk or jog, whatever. Keep your activity levels high. I like long walks for easy conditioning and hill sprints (I actually hate those, but you gotta pick your poison).

I left some freedom, as I’m sure you noticed, regarding training. Do what has been working for you.

Stick to this plan. No excuses. I lost 10 pounds throughout this pandemic so far and I didn’t even have a barbell. Don’t cheat yourself and in a month or two you’ll be so happy about your accomplishments.