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I Don't Get It...

I’m a little confused here and could use some input here guys.

I’ve done my fair share of cycles in the past all ranging from massive bulk cycles with anything and everything in high dosages to smaller cycles used to help me bridge or slim.

I’ve recently decided to try a different approach to my cycles. These dosages may seem a little low, but just go with me here…I’m currently on 400mg test cypionate and 200mgs deca per week. I’m going on week 5 and I’ve gained 30lbs already.

In the past I have NEVER had any issues with gyno, however, just off these small doses my nipples are extremely sensitive and I’ve developed a very tiny lump under my left nipple.

I started taking Nolvadex which is helping, but I just don’t get it. How can I take a gram a test a week with no problems and now when I’m only doing 400mgs a week am I having problems.

Any ideas? Thanks guys

-Have you taken deca before at 200mgs?
-No? drop the Nolva get something called Caber
-While your at the store, pick up some armidex or letro, just in case it is the test - or for future higher dosage cycles. But start the Caber when you get it.

-30lb’s in 5 weeks with test c HAHA what? so it probably kicked in week 2, so that’s 30lb in 3 weeks… Look bro slow down the weight gain, cause a good amount of it has to be fat unless it’s gyno haha - I joke. No one (that I’ve ever heard of) has even put on 15 lbs of muscle in 12 week cycle.

but is 200mg deca really going to cause prolactine gyno?

shouldnt he up the dose of nolva to see if it is estro related gyno first, then resort to caber?

and like RB said, 30 lbs is a lot, and if its not all lean gains (likely its not) then this could effect “gyno” (could just be fat? maybe your shirts are getting to small?haha).

check your diet.

retailboy…

No i’ve never run Deca before period, this is my first time. I was always a fan of running EQ instead.

As for my diet. When I start bulking I up my carbs to 600-1000 per day all from oatmeal, brown rice or black beans. I do have the occasional pizza (I AM bulking), but try to keep that at a minimum.

My calorie intake is usually between 4500-5500 per day. My body really responds well when I up my carbs really high like that. Last year I put on almost 50lbs over winter.

[quote]Dylanj wrote:
shouldnt he up the dose of nolva to see if it is estro related gyno first, then resort to caber?

[/quote]

No, don’t do that. Nolva can exacerbate prolactin related gyno. Cabergoline is the way to go, for starters.

what would you guys recommend for dosages on Cabergo? and where could i get that anyawys?

Yes 200 mgs deca can cause prolactin gyno in people sensitive to it.

get caber asap.

anytime you take a test/deca or a test/tren cycle you should have a’dex and caber with you.

adex helps with the Test, and caber with the gyno caused by the Deca.

Lots of bad advice in this thread imo.

Why are you guys recommending caber? He hasn’t said he’s lactating.

I think prolactin has been confused with progesterone.

I agree… i whole heartedly agree.

Arimidex. all the way - letro if you have it actually… but arimidex WILL solve the issue.

start quite high at around 0.5mg a day and reduce that (as felt necessary) over time down to a comfortable dose - usually around 0.25mg/ED-EOD. Your gyno doesnt sound too worrying ATM but it needs attention to be sure. If you have no arimidex, i would think about stopping the cycle for a week or two, and using high doses of nolvadex until your order of ARIMIDEX or letrozole (albeit harder to dose and prolly not necessary here) comes through.

The deca is making the estrogen mediated gynocomastia worse and it is best delt with by reducing as much of the aromatase as possible.

Well picked up there Rolling stone.

Lots of lads i have respect for posted here but i also notice not one of you have managed to recommend dosages for the caber… it feels to me that caber is the drug of the month and is the only reason it is being recommended.
Up until a month or two ago it would have been a recommendation for arimidex all the way. That shouldn’t have changed.

Caber is good for actual lactation issues or especially IMO for reducing prolactin induced erectile dysfunction - one of the reasons deca and tren is much more potent at laying the little lad down for the night* (read:*next few months!). It has outstanding sexual benefits and should be utilised more… but in the correct context.

Now i am no “prescriber” but still…

Brook

Well, all I have is what I’ve read. I see nothing where nolva helps prolactin or progestin induced gyno. The recommendation is caber, .5mg twice a week.

I have read where after stopping a 19nor, nolva can help, but not while taking it.

Thanks Brook for the heads up. I’m thinking of jsut stopping the Deca all together. This is my first time ever running it (I was always a big fan of EQ instead) and I’m not liking it too much.

I’m thinking of going back to my “old ways” with the bigger cycles. Yes it costs much more and you have to be more careful, but I always had much greater/better results in the end. My favorite was always test enanthate/eq/anadrol with a test prop taper. I gained 50lbs off that last year.

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.

[quote]5.0 wrote:
Well, all I have is what I’ve read. I see nothing where nolva helps prolactin or progestin induced gyno. The recommendation is caber, .5mg twice a week.

I have read where after stopping a 19nor, nolva can help, but not while taking it. [/quote]

You are right, it doesnt (for the record i am not recommending nolva but adex or better yet, letro).

BUT removing the estrogen WILL remove the main hormone that is responsible for causing the problem.
Gyno cannot happen without estrogen IIRC, and tren induced gyno i strongly suspect is dependant on the small(but high enough) levels of estrogen present in the male at the time.

The estrogen built up from the aromatase enzyme converting the excess testosterone is enough to cause gyno in most men… the deca IS a progestin, which acts to aggravate the estrogen much like actual progesterone would.
This makes the existing estrogen even more capable of causing estrogenic sides such as gyno.
It makes estrogen more effective simply.

The answer? Remove the excess estrogen with an effective AI. Adex is fine for most all cases i have seen here so far.

Letro is said to have some anti-progesterone benefits, how true that is i do not know, but could be useful in this situation.

Caber would be good too… but is more expensive, and not as directly effective IMO as all the estrogen would STILL be there even if prolactin is controlled (as would the progestin).

I am not recommending nolvadex.

Not having a go - just sayin :wink:

Brook

[quote]Johnny367 wrote:
Thanks Brook for the heads up. I’m thinking of jsut stopping the Deca all together. This is my first time ever running it (I was always a big fan of EQ instead) and I’m not liking it too much.

I’m thinking of going back to my “old ways” with the bigger cycles. Yes it costs much more and you have to be more careful, but I always had much greater/better results in the end. My favorite was always test enanthate/eq/anadrol with a test prop taper. I gained 50lbs off that last year.

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.[/quote]

No probs… that works too… get some arimidex mate… i strongly recommend it.

By the way, i LOVE deca - fancy sending it to me…? :wink:

[quote] Brook wrote:
You are right, it doesnt (for the record i am not recommending nolva but adex or better yet, letro).

BUT removing the estrogen WILL remove the main hormone that is responsible for causing the problem.
Gyno cannot happen without estrogen IIRC, and tren induced gyno i strongly suspect is dependant on the small(but high enough) levels of estrogen present in the male at the time.

The estrogen built up from the aromatase enzyme converting the excess testosterone is enough to cause gyno in most men… the deca IS a progestin, which acts to aggravate the estrogen much like actual progesterone would.
This makes the existing estrogen even more capable of causing estrogenic sides such as gyno.
It makes estrogen more effective simply.

The answer? Remove the excess estrogen with an effective AI. Adex is fine for most all cases i have seen here so far.

Letro is said to have some anti-progesterone benefits, how true that is i do not know, but could be useful in this situation.

Caber would be good too… but is more expensive, and not as directly effective IMO as all the estrogen would STILL be there even if prolactin is controlled (as would the progestin).

I am not recommending nolvadex.

Not having a go - just sayin :wink:

Brook[/quote]

No arguments there. The consensus is definitely that if the estrogen is controlled, then whether using a 19-nor or not, gyno is controlled. A’dex all the way.

Well fucking shit.

Adex for deca sides would this work for tren which i was led to believe the progesterone would antagonize the prolactin therfore use caber.

Or is it adex now???

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[quote] Brook wrote:
5.0 wrote:
Well, all I have is what I’ve read. I see nothing where nolva helps prolactin or progestin induced gyno. The recommendation is caber, .5mg twice a week.

I have read where after stopping a 19nor, nolva can help, but not while taking it.

You are right, it doesnt (for the record i am not recommending nolva but adex or better yet, letro).

BUT removing the estrogen WILL remove the main hormone that is responsible for causing the problem.
Gyno cannot happen without estrogen IIRC, and tren induced gyno i strongly suspect is dependant on the small(but high enough) levels of estrogen present in the male at the time.

The estrogen built up from the aromatase enzyme converting the excess testosterone is enough to cause gyno in most men… the deca IS a progestin, which acts to aggravate the estrogen much like actual progesterone would.
This makes the existing estrogen even more capable of causing estrogenic sides such as gyno.
It makes estrogen more effective simply.

The answer? Remove the excess estrogen with an effective AI. Adex is fine for most all cases i have seen here so far.

Letro is said to have some anti-progesterone benefits, how true that is i do not know, but could be useful in this situation.

Caber would be good too… but is more expensive, and not as directly effective IMO as all the estrogen would STILL be there even if prolactin is controlled (as would the progestin).

I am not recommending nolvadex.

Not having a go - just sayin :wink:

Brook[/quote]

Nice post, but I’m confused as to why you would not recommend nolva then. You’ve got some level of estrogen acting up, probably made worse by the progestin, so you should control it with adex or letro. Fine. But while you’re doing that, why not use nolva as BBB says? nolva is selective and tends to act pretty strongly on breast tissue, so if you’re getting sensitive there I’d think you should use nolva to keep things in control until you get the actual E levels down with adex.

I also suspect you are correct about tren/deca aggravating small E problems. You need E present to have gyno. No E, no gyno. But I think progestins might be pretty good at potentiating E’s effects in breast tissue.

because - (and bear with me here as i do not have the information to hand, and it needs a thorough search) Tamoxifen has been shown to make progesterone sides worse, i THINK it is due to the fact that it acts as an Estrogen in so many other tissues.

But that is really vague i know. I have read a couple lengthy posts on it on other forums and the last time i tried to find any decent literature on it in relation to Oxymetholone, i couldn’t.

But it is a just in case measure. I PERSONALLY find that nolvadex is OK when using Drol and Test (ALONGSIDE LETROZOLE I MIGHT ADD) but i have definitely heard of Nolvadex making these particular symptoms worsen.

In the end though, even if nolvadex didnt make it worse, i STILL would recommend an AI first, as they are so much more effective at the job. They reduce the conversion at the root, not just block one receptor.

Brook

[quote] Brook wrote:
because - (and bear with me here as i do not have the information to hand, and it needs a thorough search) Tamoxifen has been shown to make progesterone sides worse,

i THINK it is due to the fact that it acts as an Estrogen in so many other tissues.

[/quote]

You are correct, Brook. I don’t have the research with me, but I recall some conversations we had about this same thing which prompted me to look deep into it.

Right on bbb you really know how to simplify things in a way i can understand!!!

God bless you roadee.

And brook i like how you jumped in there dog as of late there seems to be some curve balls being thrown by some well new members.

Anywho i guess it keeps this shit interesting which it does.

Sweet thread,
THE JUDGE