Oops…
Example no.4 Eccentric-less rowing
And technically walking or running with the prowler or sled backwards and forwards are also eccentric-less drills for the lower body.
So basically…
Biceps = eccentric-less curl (photo included earlier)
Traps, rhomboids, shoulders = eccentric-less face pull (photo included earlier)
Rhomboids, traps 2, trap 3 and rear delts = eccentric-less rear delt (photo included)
Overall back = eccentric-less row (photo included)
Shoulders = eccentric-less front raise (sled is behind you, arms are behind your body holding the handle, perform a front raise)
Chest = eccentric-less press with sled (sled is behind you, arms are next to your chest kinda like in the bottom position of a push up and you press forward)
Quads (VMO emphasis) and calves = walking or running backwards with the sled
Overall lower body = walking or running forward with the prowler or sled
BTW, to execute these movements you perform one rep, step back, do another rep, take another step back, etc.
Normally we do sets of anywhere between 10 and 20 yards and each rep is roughly 1 to 2 yards depending on the movement and strength of the pull (the harder and more explosively you pull, the further the sled will travel with each rep. So you will do less rep for any given distance, but each rep will have a higher force output).
Oh yeah, the moral of the story is: ‘‘BUY A PROWLER… EVEN IF YOU ARE A BODYBUILDER’’. A sled will do for the upper body exercises, but the prowler allows you to do better lower body work.
Fantastic stuff Thib. I’m now opening a Word document of some of the stuff you post because this is a goldmine.
Isn’t the frequency for this split a little low? There’s some overlap with the arm-training and chest/back but otherwise it’s pretty much the standard BB split of training one muscle group/lift per week.
The concentrated loading is very effective, but if volume and intensity is controlled by auto-regulation, I don’t think eccentric-less training is needed. Most lifters can handle high frequency training just fine, see the recent discussion on Pendlay’s forum, Matt Perryman’s blog and what John Broz is doing (an extreme example, but still).
[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
Isn’t the frequency for this split a little low? There’s some overlap with the arm-training and chest/back but otherwise it’s pretty much the standard BB split of training one muscle group/lift per week.
The concentrated loading is very effective, but if volume and intensity is controlled by auto-regulation, I don’t think eccentric-less training is needed. Most lifters can handle high frequency training just fine, see the recent discussion on Pendlay’s forum, Matt Perryman’s blog and what John Broz is doing (an extreme example, but still).[/quote]
John Broz and Glenn Pendlay (both guys for whom I have a lot of respect) are olympic lifting coaches. And as such 80% of their training volume is performed with drastically reduced eccentric (if not eccentric-less) stress since they can drop the bar on every rep.
Plus, Pendlay is actually one of the guys from whom I got the idea to do eccentric-less training to increase training volume.
Furthermore, the OP asked for an example of a 4-days per week program, I gave him such an example.
Darryl (IFBB pro bodybuilder) is training 6 days a week, twice a day. Obviously in his case each muscle group will be hit more often.
Coach, two quick questions:
1.Is the routine you outlined written for someone presuming the use of the Anaconda Protocol? Or can it be followed with adequate nutrition with good results?
- I had a 1month break from training (summer vacations, travelling etc), and was looking to get back into a bulking routine after this reset. I liked an article I read at EliteFTS a lot (http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/training-articles/the-young-skinny-training-with-add-guy’s-guide-to-gaining-mass-and-strength/)
Which routine would you believe would be best for the effect? Or is this a case of “find out what works best for you, and do it”?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
John Broz and Jim Pendlay (both guys for whom I have a lot of respect) are olympic lifting coaches. And as such 80% of their training volume is performed with drastically reduced eccentric (if not eccentric-less) stress since they can drop the bar on every rep.
Plus, Pendlay is actually one of the guys from whom I got the idea to do eccentric-less training to increase training volume.
Furthermore, the OP asked for an example of a 4-days per week program, I gave him such an example.
Darryl (IFBB pro bodybuilder) is training 6 days a week, twice a day. Obviously in his case each muscle group will be hit more often.[/quote]
Actually, Broz is training squats up to a daily max with 6-9 reps total for back-off sets 6x/week. Perryman is doing what is essentially full body 5 days in a row with front squats/squats, push presses, bench, rows/chins etc.
Anyway, for a concentrated loading phase, would you try to limit volume or just let auto-regulation take care of it, for example in the Push workout you described earlier, would you make any alterations if training 3 days in a row?
[quote]A. Bench press x 3 reps
Micro-ramping (5 or 10lbs increments) starting at 60% of your max and working up to the max weight you can dominate for all the reps. Shoot for roughly 12 sets.
B. Close-grip bench press
Perform 1 set of max reps with 70% of the top weight you reached on â??Aâ??
C. Incline bench press
Perform 1 set of max reps with 60% of the top weight you reached on â??Aâ??
D. Push press
Perform 1 set of max reps with 60% of the top weight you reached on â??Aâ??
E. Dips
Perform 1 set of max reps with bodyweight only [/quote]
Another question - have you experimented with a daily undulating periodization scheme, where rep ranges and loads are varied from workout to workout, or do you just let the ramping/auto-regulation take care of that?
[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
John Broz and Jim Pendlay (both guys for whom I have a lot of respect) are olympic lifting coaches. And as such 80% of their training volume is performed with drastically reduced eccentric (if not eccentric-less) stress since they can drop the bar on every rep.
Plus, Pendlay is actually one of the guys from whom I got the idea to do eccentric-less training to increase training volume.
Furthermore, the OP asked for an example of a 4-days per week program, I gave him such an example.
Darryl (IFBB pro bodybuilder) is training 6 days a week, twice a day. Obviously in his case each muscle group will be hit more often.[/quote]
Actually, Broz is training squats up to a daily max with 6-9 reps total for back-off sets 6x/week. Perryman is doing what is essentially full body 5 days in a row with front squats/squats, push presses, bench, rows/chins etc.
Anyway, for a concentrated loading phase, would you try to limit volume or just let auto-regulation take care of it, for example in the Push workout you described earlier, would you make any alterations if training 3 days in a row?
[quote]A. Bench press x 3 reps
Micro-ramping (5 or 10lbs increments) starting at 60% of your max and working up to the max weight you can dominate for all the reps. Shoot for roughly 12 sets.
B. Close-grip bench press
Perform 1 set of max reps with 70% of the top weight you reached on �?�¢??A�?�¢??
C. Incline bench press
Perform 1 set of max reps with 60% of the top weight you reached on �?�¢??A�?�¢??
D. Push press
Perform 1 set of max reps with 60% of the top weight you reached on �?�¢??A�?�¢??
E. Dips
Perform 1 set of max reps with bodyweight only [/quote]
Another question - have you experimented with a daily undulating periodization scheme, where rep ranges and loads are varied from workout to workout, or do you just let the ramping/auto-regulation take care of that?[/quote]
All olympic lifters are doing squats and front squats on a daily basis. I did when I was competing in olympic lifting. At one time I was squatting up to 3 times a day.
But his athlete’s (as with all other olympic lifters’) volume is at least 70% on the competitive lifts or their derivative, with 20-30% on other lifts such as the squat. Broz is basically using the Bulgarian system of only doing the competitive lifts as well as front and back squats (only one of those two per workout). So 2 out of 3 exercises per workout are basically eccentric-less.
OF COURSE THERE IS NO NEED FOR HIM TO DO MORE ECCENTRIC-LESS EXERCISES… HE IS ALREADY DOING THEM AT LEAST 70% OF THE TIME!!!
From experience, there is a limit to concentrated loading. While the ‘‘technical lifts’’ can be ‘‘practiced’’ every day; I personally have found that most average individuals will get injured quickly if training intensely on the same lift more than 3 days in a row.
Understand that for olympic lifters, the snatch and clean & jerk (which they perform daily) is THEIR ACTUAL SPORT. Just like playing football is the sport of the football player. Put somebody who is genetically gifted for football and recovers well from that kind of punishment and he’s progress just fine on daily football practices. But take a guy who is as frail as a pre-pubescent girl and he will get injured in a month of the same training.
Same thing goes for weightlifting. Those who get the respect necessary to be able to serve as an example are those who rise above the pack. And those who rise above the pack are genetically gifted for their selected activity, regardless of what they or their coach is saying. And because of that, what applies to them doesn’t apply IN IT’S ENTIRETY to most folks. The same PRINCIPLES might apply, but the APPLICATION will vary.
I not only have the utmost respect for John Broz but I admire Pat Mendes’ performances, they boggle the mind. However I also know personally at least 50 olympic lifters who trained as often and with a similar methodology and intensity and who couldn’t qualify for the Canadian Nationals. At some point, genetics do play a role… sadly. And although it can be tempting to take the results that a certain training approach pproduced on said elite and believe that it can be applied to everybody is just not possible.
As I mentionned, I personally tolerate physical training very well. For a 6 months stint I would drive 2 hours to train with my coach, we trained for 3 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon then I drove back for 2 hours and did this eveyr single day but Sundays. I progressed just fine.
Then when I started to work as a coach, most of my clientele were pro hockey players and some national level athletes. These guys were also gifted to tolerate physical training so they responded well to concentrated loading 4x per week plus track work.
Then I became the strength coach of a sport school where I trained over 300 teenage athletes from 27 sports per year. Because they were young and neurally inefficient they too could tolerate my training approach fine.
These experiences led me to believe that everybody could thrive on such an approach.
When I began working with average Joes… guys and gals with full-time jobs and average (or below) genetics for muscle-building and physical work tolerance I noticed how I was wrong to believe that every would respond well to such an extreme approach.
What IS possible though is to understand the physiological and neurological principles that make a certain approach work with elites and adapt them so that even the genetically screwed can benefit from it.
And this comes from experience training A LOT of average folks (which are not the ‘‘client base’’ of John Broz).
YES I do understand that doing the competitive lifts and squats 6 days a week is doable. And those genetically suited to be weightlifters or who are getting some pharmaceutical help can actually thrive on such an approach. But most of the population will not.
And that is the problem I see with a lot of elite coaches…they are used to working with individuals who are gifter for the activity of weightlifting, their body is built to tolerate that type of stress well. Obviously all coaches will refuse to admit that because it doesn’t make them look as good. But I have trained all portions of the spectrum and can tell you with 100% certainty that it is true.
A few years ago I would actually have told you that training the same lifts 5-6 days a week was a fantastic way to progress. Why? Because when I competed in olympic lifting that’s when I made my best gains. But as I began working with more and more individuals, I came to realise that my body was built to handle hard physical work and that I recovered easily from it.
The same training that made me and a few of my elite clients progress fast, lead to injuries and stagnation in a lot of others.
A lot of the people reading the internet are young beginners. These individuals often do not have the neurological efficiency to be able to use a large percentage of their physical capacity. To them, working at their ‘‘practical’’ maximum is probably asking their body to work at 70% of their maximum output. So obviously these people CAN train the same exercise VERY often and progress very well… probably faster than if they were training each muscle group once a week.
For example, I have a female client who can power clean 40kg for 5 reps… for her doing the power clean on a daily basis is quite easy.
However as someone becomes more neurally efficient, if he is not structurally built for physical performance, training a movement that often will become problematic.
If someone can bench press 150lbs I have no problem in having him bench press 4-5 times weekly or even more. But if someone can do 400+ his shoulders will crumble on such a regimen, unless he is built like a plow horse.
If you are a beginner, training a lift 5-6 days a week is fine.
If you are genetically built to be a weightlifter it is also fine regardless of your level of efficiency.
But other than that I find that the limit of concentrated loading for a muscle group or movement is 3 days in a row.
Now, obviously other coaches may have other opinions and that’s fine.
I’m only giving you mine based on my own experience. But contrary to most coaches I trained an competed in most strength sports (olympic lifting for 5-6 years, bodybuilding for 5-6 years, powerlifting thrown in there, did two strongmen competitions also trained for football for many years). I have also worked with a wider variety of clients than ‘‘lifting coaches’’ (pure olympic lifting and powerlifting coaches) …
- From 6 years of age up to 80 years of age
- From a guy who could barely walk after severe neurological trauma to olympic and pro athletes
- From beanpoles up to guys who could bench press 315 at 15 years of age the first month they started training
- From guys able to devote their whole day to training and recovery up to individuals working physically 70 hours a week
Over the past 10 years I worked with at least a thousand clients from all over the genetic spectrum and it is from that experience that I can tell you that as much as I’d like extreme concentrated loading to be the ultimate answer because I really believe in that concept and that it works great for me… it isn’t. At least not for most of the population in North America.
That blew my mind…well said CT.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]unimog416 wrote:
Coach -
Due to work and family I can only work out M,T,TH,F in the gym. I can do cardio other days.
Would I be better to modify I Bodybuilder by dropping out Wednesday or to Modify Mechanical Drop?
I think I would do that modification by dropping the off day on day 5 and moving day 6 to day 5.
Going to start new program on Monday, your thoughts and time are greatly appreciated.
Unimog416[/quote]
I’d recommend a variation of the method I’m using now.
DAY 1 - PUSH
A. Top half bench press from pins
Ramping sets of 3 reps
B. Push press
Ramping sets of 5 reps
C Incline bench or DB press
Ramping sets of 5 reps
D1. Push press using 70% of the top reached on B.
Max reps
D2. Dips bodyweight only
Max reps
D3. DB lateral raises
Max reps with a weight you can do 8-12 times
D4. DB shoulder press
Max reps with the same weight as in D3.
D5. Push ups
Max reps
D1 to D5 are performed as a circuit with as little rest as possible between stations
The circuit is performed only once
DAY 2 - PULL
A. Bent over barbell row
Ramping sets of 5
B. Lat pulldown
Ramping sets of 5
C. Power shrugs
Ramping sets of 5
D1. Power upright row
Max reps with a weight you can do 8-12 times
D2. Bent over row 70% of what you used on A.
Max reps
D3. Lat pulldown 70% of what you used on B
Max reps
D4. Chest supported rear delts raises
Max reps with a weight you can do 8-12 times
D1 to D5 are performed as a circuit with as little rest as possible between stations
The circuit is performed only once
DAY 3 - LEGS
A. Jump squat with 20% of your max squat
3-5 sets of 5 jumps
B. Leg press or front squat
Ramping sets of 5
C. Romanian deadlift
Ramping sets of 5
D1. Leg press or front squat with 70% of the weight used in A
Max reps
D2. Romanian deadlift with 70%
Max reps
D3. Leg extension
Max reps with a weight you can do 8-12 times
D4. Lying leg curl
Max reps with a weight you can do 8-12 times
D5. Bodyweight squat
Max reps
D1 to D5 are performed as a circuit with as little rest as possible between stations
The circuit is performed only once
DAY 4 - ARMS
A. Incline close-grip bench press
Ramping sets of 5
B. Preacher curl
Ramping sets of 5
C1. Incline close-grip bench with 70%
Max reps
C2. Preacher curl with 70%
Max reps
C3. Nosebreaker
Max reps with a weight you can do 8-12 times
C4. Standing reverse curl
Max reps with a weight you can do 8-12 times
C1 to C4 are performed as a circuit with as little rest as possible between stations
The circuit is performed twice[/quote]
very nice to see, that ideas like max rep sets on some already activated exercises, that I intuitively added to my 3 rep workouts after doing them solely for about half a year, are also used by you and your clients Coach. By the way, this max rep sets gave me half an inch on my arms (on the triceps mostly) and size that i cant put in numbers on my lats, in only about 5-6 weeks, just awesome 
by the way, two of my friends who play hockey in Austria, that i have trained for a half a year, also using max force principles, have been in Ontario at the Nike BTNL Camp over July, they told me, that without learning from me (in other words, from you) about how to produce as much force as possible and how to be as explosive as they have got through such an approach, they would have gotten their ass kicked even more than they already got, and I thought that I whipped their ass… they learned better in Ontario lol
internet: “what a wonderful invention”
keep up the good work!
This thread is very interesting. CT, you recently posted about accommodating the resistance curve with bands and cables by doing an exercise such as curls, low-pulley curls and curls with resistance bands, in a tri-set fashion. I can’t seem to find this post anymore, do you have the link for it? I was thinking of adding this method to the 4-day program the OP had asked for. How would you incorporate this method to the program you mentioned for the OP at the beginning of this thread?
I appreciate the comprehensive response. I should clarify that I only mentioned Broz to illustrate what is possible - with a combination of genetics and years of building up volume/frequency tolerance.
Obviously the average Joe wouldn’t be able to handle or thrive on that type of frequency.
I do, however, have experience with average Joe’s and concentrated loading, and with proper auto-regulation within short 3-4 week cycles it can be very productive.
Also see Natural Pro Tommy Jeffer’s experiment a couple of years ago, when he followed a block training approach designed by Lyle McDonald (in case you have access to his “evil” forum).
3 days of 15 reps on e.g. pushing exercises, 1 day of rest, 1 day maintenance for the rest of the body, 1 day rest
Repeat cycle with 10 reps
Repeat cycle with 5 reps
etc
Obviously also a genetic freak, but his gains were impressive.
I agree that 3 days is probably the max for training the same quality, lift or muscle group, followed by 3 days of rest and maintenance-type training (or at least less volume) for the rest of the body.
My main questions were:
- do you vary volume in a planned fashion, or do you let auto-regulation take care of that
- do you vary rep ranges, or do you basically follow the same template you outlined earlier, i.e. ramping up to 3-5 reps on the main exercise, 3-5 reps of 5 at 70% and/or giantsets of 4-5 exercises at max reps (8-12 rep range)?
If this is information you will publish in a later thread or article, I completely understand.
Coach-
Performed the workout this morning and just wanted to drop another thank you.
As to the other posts, I am no beginner, but no gifted genetic monster either. Just a 43 year old with all the normal time challenges, who loves the process of continually learning to lift, feed and rest more effectivly for growth. I am using Annaconda2 along with a normal clean bulking type diet.
Last 60 days added 10 lbs of muscle with 5/3/1, verified by bod pod, canâ??t wait to post the results after the second cycle of this program.
Thought we would run it for 4 to 6 weeks and then do a deload week and repeat, sound ok?
Thanks again, your willingness to go well beyond the call is once again appreciated.
Unimog416.
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Darryl’s program is too complex to write down… well not really, but it’s a chore!!!
- In the PM he has an eccentric-less workout for the muscle trained in the morning.
[/quote]
Hey, Coach, I know you’re just writing about one guy here, but it brought a question to mind:
Do you ever use the paradigm of concentric-only reps for the AM workout and regular-to-extra eccentric stimulus, for the same muscle group, in the PM workout?
Thanks,
Brian
[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
I appreciate the comprehensive response. I should clarify that I only mentioned Broz to illustrate what is possible - with a combination of genetics and years of building up volume/frequency tolerance.
Obviously the average Joe wouldn’t be able to handle or thrive on that type of frequency.
I do, however, have experience with average Joe’s and concentrated loading, and with proper auto-regulation within short 3-4 week cycles it can be very productive.
Also see Natural Pro Tommy Jeffer’s experiment a couple of years ago, when he followed a block training approach designed by Lyle McDonald (in case you have access to his “evil” forum).
3 days of 15 reps on e.g. pushing exercises, 1 day of rest, 1 day maintenance for the rest of the body, 1 day rest
Repeat cycle with 10 reps
Repeat cycle with 5 reps
etc
Obviously also a genetic freak, but his gains were impressive.
I agree that 3 days is probably the max for training the same quality, lift or muscle group, followed by 3 days of rest and maintenance-type training (or at least less volume) for the rest of the body.
My main questions were:
- do you vary volume in a planned fashion, or do you let auto-regulation take care of that
- do you vary rep ranges, or do you basically follow the same template you outlined earlier, i.e. ramping up to 3-5 reps on the main exercise, 3-5 reps of 5 at 70% and/or giantsets of 4-5 exercises at max reps (8-12 rep range)?
If this is information you will publish in a later thread or article, I completely understand.[/quote]
I’ll get back to your questions a bit later on (dinner time), but regarding Jeffer’s experiment, I actually did something similar myself 5 years ago. I would train 1 main muscle group and it’s no.1 synergist 5 days a week and the rest of the body at maintenance level on the 6th day.
But each day was a different rep scheme…
E.g.
Day 1. Sets of 3 reps with a submaximal weight (roughly 70-75%, explosive, a lot of sets… mostly a neural activation workout)
Day 2. Sets of 5 reps, ramping (autoregulation)… this was my ‘‘main muscle building day’’… today I would do ramping sets of 3 reps
Day 3. Sets of 12 reps, short of failure, basically active rest… today I would do an eccentric-less day here
Day 4. Same as day 1
Day 5. Sets of 8 reps to failure (normally 3 sets per exercise) … today I would do ramping sets of 5 reps just short of failure.
The spec split would be…
Week 1. Back and biceps
Week 2. Chest and triceps
Week 3. Legs and abs
Week 4. Shoulders and traps
Week 5. Deload
It actually worked very well for me and was the foundation of the original I,BODYBUILDER workout. But when you analyze it there is 2 days that you would consider ‘‘hard’’ days (2 and 5)… 2 days that would be considered ‘‘activation’’ or ‘‘neural charge’’ days (1 and 4) and one would be an active recovery and volume accumulation day (3). It wouldn’t be 5 hard workouts.
I actually liked that set-up very well personally.
Coach, if someone wanted to use this example for a 6 workouts over 8 days approach, how would the second leg workout look, that i assume would be deadlift based?
[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
I appreciate the comprehensive response. I should clarify that I only mentioned Broz to illustrate what is possible - with a combination of genetics and years of building up volume/frequency tolerance.
Obviously the average Joe wouldn’t be able to handle or thrive on that type of frequency.
I do, however, have experience with average Joe’s and concentrated loading, and with proper auto-regulation within short 3-4 week cycles it can be very productive.
Also see Natural Pro Tommy Jeffer’s experiment a couple of years ago, when he followed a block training approach designed by Lyle McDonald (in case you have access to his “evil” forum).
3 days of 15 reps on e.g. pushing exercises, 1 day of rest, 1 day maintenance for the rest of the body, 1 day rest
Repeat cycle with 10 reps
Repeat cycle with 5 reps
etc
Obviously also a genetic freak, but his gains were impressive.
I agree that 3 days is probably the max for training the same quality, lift or muscle group, followed by 3 days of rest and maintenance-type training (or at least less volume) for the rest of the body.
My main questions were:
- do you vary volume in a planned fashion, or do you let auto-regulation take care of that
- do you vary rep ranges, or do you basically follow the same template you outlined earlier, i.e. ramping up to 3-5 reps on the main exercise, 3-5 reps of 5 at 70% and/or giantsets of 4-5 exercises at max reps (8-12 rep range)?
If this is information you will publish in a later thread or article, I completely understand.[/quote]
Now this is going to be a minor thread hijack, but judging from your screename, Blade_MyR, and your location, Norway, I feel like it is a pretty good bet that you are Borge Fagerli, the famous Norwegian trainer who pioneered the MyoReps system that has become so popular overseas. What I am wondering, then (presuming you are who I am assuming you are), is what you think of CT’s HTH ideas about maximum muscle growth, and what piqued your curiosity about his methods to motivate you to start posting here?
Sorry CT for the minor hijack, just wanted to say I tried using this type of workout setup with my chest workout yesterday, and did something like this:
A. Incline Db Press: Ramped to 6
→ 70% of top weight = 5 x 5 (Deadstop reps, 3 sec pause at bottom)
B. Flat BB Press: Ramped to 6
→ 70% of top weight = 5 x 5 (Deadstop reps, 3 sec pause at bottom)
C1. High Cable Crossover
C2. Dips
C3. Db Flys
C4. Pushups (Bosu Ball turned upside down, gripping handles)
C5. Low Cable Crossovers
Performed the Circuit Twice.
I liked the workout, especially the A and B exercises, because I am really trying to focus on pressing with my pecs and the whole mind-muscle connection. However, I am not so sure I would want to keep the circuit, as I tend to get in a groove with an exercise where I am performing the reps perfectly, but with the circuit i felt as if it was harder for me to get into that groove of proper performance which would thus limit my results. I am currently trying to mentally workshop some circuit alternatives. Just wanted to know what you thought about my workout and ideas about the circuits at the end.