T Nation

I Am 'Done'


cut and copied from my training log in the old guys forum:

Ran into the neurosurgeon I have an appointment with at work night before last. He was nice enough to pull up my previous MRI (from about 8 years ago) and look at it, and discuss the symptoms I am having now.

the good news...He thinks the problem with my hands going numb is more likely carpal tunnel syndrome, not a cervical disc problem.

the bad news...He said there was no point in getting a new MRI... because as far as my low and mid back pain issues go, the symptoms are the same as then. My old MRI showed multiple thoracic and lumbar disks worn down and "nearly bone-on bone"..."diffuse disease" of my spine, "and I am pretty sure things have not gotten better in the last few years"..."you are DONE" and far as heavy lifting is concerned...and even if I stop now..."your looking at long term pain management for the rest of your life"

I am not having radicular pain...all my pain is axial...and I have diffuse degenerative disease, not just one or two bulged/herniated discs, so there is no surgical option for me.


high rep high volume upper body stuff and lots of prowler for my lower body in my future I guess...


...Or you can figure out other ways to load the lower extremities without excessive axial loading. Belt squats are a great alternative. Single leg variations still tax the lower body without having to have increased axial loading. It sucks, but no need to get a "woe is me" mentality.

Also, I'd like to add that MRIs are great and when combined with symptoms they can provide a great deal of information into what is going on with your body. But did he perform a movement assessment with you as well? If you are lacking thoracic mobility or the proper strength for your lumbar stabilizers, this may be placing too great a load on your thoracic spine.

Fix any underlying mobility and movement pattern pathologies, and it may help improve symptoms enough to where you won't have to completely ditch the squats and other heavier axially loaded lifts.

You mention you posted in the "old guys" forum. How old are you? How long have you been training? What is your training history like?


wow. k, it was a mistake to post over here, will not happen again...dude I have been keeping a training log over here since like 2003. I don't expect you to know this but if anyone has the opposite of a "woe is me" attitude it is me.

I have been training around and through multiple injuries, surgeries...etc. I have just had it.

I am sure a smart ass reply is coming back, as NOBODY on the internet every is wrong or has ever misspeaks and puts there foot in their mouth...or is capable of an apology...I will not bother posting here again.

the last work is yours if you care to even read this.


I'm sorry if you felt I was being a smart ass, but that was not my intensions. I was never claiming you had a "woe is me" attitude, but was just saying not to go down that path as it seemed as if you were willing to give up on lower extremity lifts for the most part with your quote "high rep high volume upper body stuff and lots of prowler for my lower body in my future I guess...".

So I gave specific advice and examples of spine sparing/reduced axial loaded lifts for the lower body that would probably be better alternatives and not increase symptoms. The reason I asked about your training history, age, etc is to be able to give some added advice with more specific details. I assumed that you were asking for advice since you posted about it, but maybe you just wanted to vent about your issues.

Regardless, I offered my advice. If you wish to take it awesome, if not more power to you. Regardless, best of luck with your continued lifting and I really do feel that my advice could give you some great options outside of just prowler pushing. I hope you don't decide to leave this forum or stop posting as I feel everybody can contribute in some way, but in the end it is your decision.


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Do you have a link to a study conducted with the glucosamine? That is the first I have heard of that.


If that is true, i'm assuming that would be beneficial to one suffering from disc problems?


Spine J. 2007 Sep-Oct;7(5):601-8. Epub 2007 Jan 2.
Glucosamine HCl alters production of inflammatory mediators by rat intervertebral disc cells in vitro.

Walsh AJ, O'neill CW, Lotz JC.

Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Orthopaedic Bioengineering Laboratory, University of California, San Francisco, 533 Parnassus Ave., Box 0514, San Francisco, CA 94143-0514, USA.

BACKGROUND CONTEXT: Studies on cartilage have shown anti-inflammatory effects of glucosamine related to inhibition of inflammatory mediators. Intradiscal injection of glucosamine has been proposed as a treatment for chronic discogenic low back pain. However, there have been no studies of the direct effects of glucosamine on disc cells.

PURPOSE: To determine the effects of glucosamine HCl on pro-inflammatory mediator production by intervertebral disc cells.

STUDY DESIGN: An in vitro, experimental study of interleukin-1 (IL-1) stimulated rat intervertebral disc cells treated with and without glucosamine HCl.

METHODS: Rat annulus and nucleus cells were cultured in alginate beads and exposed to IL-1a (10 ng/mL)+glucosamine HCl (4.5 mg/mL), IL-1 alone, or neither for 4 and 7 days. Cell viability and IL-6, tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha), prostaglandin E(2) (PGE(2)), and NO levels in the medium were quantified and compared across treatments.

RESULTS: Annulus cells, 7 days: Glucosamine completely inhibited IL-6 and TNF-alpha, increased NO (by 75%), and reduced viability (by 89%) compared with IL-1 alone. Nucleus cells, 7 days: Glucosamine reduced IL-6 (by 89%), PGE(2) (91%), and NO (90%) with no effect to viability.

CONCLUSIONS: Glucosamine inhibits inflammatory mediator production by IL-1 stimulated disc cells, but also adversely affects the viability of rat annulus cells. The response is cell-type dependent, illustrated by differences for annulus and nucleus cells.

PMID: 17905323 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Here's another:

Glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate supplementation to treat symptomatic disc degeneration: Biochemical rationale and case report
Wim J van Blitterswijk,corresponding author1 Jos CM van de Nes,2 and Paul IJM Wuisman3

The case suggests that long-term glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate intake may counteract symptomatic spinal disc degeneration, particularly at an early stage. However, definite proof requires well-conducted clinical trials with these food supplements, in which disc de-/regeneration can be objectively determined by MRI. A number of biochemical reasons (that mechanistically need to be further resolved) explain why these agents may have cartilage structure- and symptom-modifying effects, suggesting their therapeutic efficacy against osteoarthritis in general.




Thanks for those! I always like to keep a log of journal articles as reference. Appreciate the input.


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