T Nation

Humble Request for Feedback-New Guy


#1

Hello all,

I'm 34 6'1 240 and been on trt for a few months now. Starting to feel a bit better as I was low on and off for years. I am a former collegiate athlete and have no experience with steroids. I have read the stickies and am left curious as to what would be a safe cycle for me and my goals.

I definitely have battles with depression and anxiety but since being treated with test and thyroid I am starting to see the light. I have just started eating right again and lightly training as I had surgery in September. I would be super appreciative if you can let me know your thoughts on a good cycle that I can run even though I have a history of depression/anxiety. Looking to lose fat gain some muscle and have more of a sense of well being and help with injury prevention.

Sincerely,
Michael


#2

What's your bf %?

What are you ultimate goals for this cycle? Do you want to bulk or cut (i'm guessing cut)? How often do you lift? What does training lightly mean?

For me it made my anxiety worse, but it's different in everyone.


#3

Brother it sounds to me like you are a good candidate to start introducing some HRT. Talk to your Doc about it first, but first and foremost, if you are not significantly recovering from a bad injury, or trying to put on some solid size, don't bother stressing your body. AAS's shouldn't be taken lightly.

Getting on a good low dose of some GH would really benefit your overall health and being. Fat loss, libido increase, more energy, it literally is the fountain of youth.


#4

He is on trt..


#5

Exactly. Which is why i was encouraging him to not run a cycle. It doesn't sound like he is looking to do much more than preserve his youth and restore some health. AAS would not be my top choice if those were my goals... especially if I was already on TRT.


#6

Hey guys thanks for responding. I am currently 27 percent body fat. I had back surgery and had some metal health setbacks where I are like crap and didn't exercise. I would like to cut fat and put on some lean body mass but noticing crazy. 3-4 days a week just started lifting two body parts a day and some swimming and jogging. Diet is getting better.

My biggest concern is anxiety triggers if I take something. Sorry but I really don't have much knowledge on how to proceed with a plan. I am reading a lot of posts trying to learn. What might be a safer protocol for me and how would that like with my trt?

What kind of gh and with what?

Worst case scenario how do I make current trt and hcg most effective for losing fat and gaining muscle? Estradiol is at 40 and total t is 780


#7

If you got the money I'd go with GH tbh.


#8

Are you familiar with knowing what the side effects would be if let's say I did it for three months then stopped?


#9

Of GH? Dependant on dose and you usually want to run it a little longer than 3 months.

Your best friend to be honest is going to be getting your diet in check and hitting the gym hard.


#10

First off you need to lower your estrogen, optimal level is right around 22 (reference Ksman).

Secondly, I don't think you are ready to cycle anything more than what you are taking right now. It sounds like you're just getting back into the gym, so you need to find out how to make gains on "natural" levels, or else you could be doing some asinine thing that's only working because you're on gear... and thats a nono.

You need to learn how to train and eat right first.

However, I would start reading into it now. Read the sticky's, read through the forum, read through other forums or any scholarly articles pertaining to AAS use and educate yourself. I'd say a year or two down the line you'll be ready, especially since you are on HRT now and it will make things much simpler.


#11

Did you even read the first line of the post? lawl


#12

I have read a lot on this site about how to get my estradiol levels lower but then i tell my anti Aging doctor and he sends me this and tells me not to worry about it unless i am showing signs of gyno or its really high.

"Testosterone replacement therapy has a significant role in protecting aging menâ??s health, including greater protection against heart disease, diabetes, and obesity.123 However, it naturally increases estrogen levels in men, which has brought the benefits of testosterone therapy into question.

You may have heard the warning that high estrogen levels cause prostate cancer in men, but research supporting this claim is unclear. Some studies indicate that high estrogen levels can increase the development of prostate cancer cells, while other research finds high estrogen levels are not found in men with prostate cancer. High estrogen levels may be considered a health risk, but low estrogen levels can also be detrimental to menâ??s health. The body needs estrogen to avoid cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, and metabolic syndrome.45

Letâ??s take a look at the two different arguments to understand the effects of raising estrogen levels via testosterone therapy.
Argument A: Raising Estrogen Levels is Harmful

As men age, circulating levels of estradiol increase and free testosterone levels decrease in the body. This sharp increase in estrogen has been related to prostate cancer. Prostate cancer has been suggested to originate from the presence of androgens, because testosterone is converted into estrogen by the enzyme aromatase.6 This depletes free testosterone levels and increases estrogen levels. However, the active form of testosterone, 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone, is not aromatized into estrogen and does not increase prostate cancer risks.7 Estrogen treatment has been shown to damage prostate DNA in animal studies and it is suggested that androgens act as a strong tumor promoter when estrogen, or specifically estradiol-17beta, is present.7 However, a closer look at these claims shows testosterone actually plays a significant role in sustaining prostate health and that androgens do not cause prostate cancer.
Argument B: High Estrogen Levels in Men are Actually Protective

While it has been argued testosterone therapy increases the risk of prostate cancer by raising estrogen levels, research has also shown the opposite is true. Low levels of testosterone increases prostate cancer risks. A literature review found that there is a limited capacity for androgens to stimulate the growth of prostate cancer cells.8 Another review of research did not find a significant association between testosterone or estrogen levels and prostate cancer.9 Only men that currently have prostate cancer should avoid testosterone therapy, as this is the time when androgens may further proliferate cancer cells.

Several studies indicate that low estrogen levels in men can be detrimental and raising estrogen levels has protective benefits, such as strong bones, sustained cognitive function, and cardiovascular health. In fact, increasing estrogen levels is not harmful when optimal testosterone levels are present. The ratio of estrogen to testosterone is what matters most, as low testosterone and high estrogen blocks testosterone receptor sites.10 Testosterone therapy is a beneficial way to restore healthy testosterone levels and balance the testosterone/estrogen ratio. Testosterone therapy was given to 207 men between the ages of 40 to 83, finding the therapy had a significant decrease on prostate volume, prostate-specific antigens (PSA) levels, and lower urinary tract symptoms.11
Conclusion: Optimal Hormone Balance

So, what is the final verdict? Estrogen is not harmful to men. This can best be explained by Dr. Neal Rouzier, who has stated,â??Many conclude that estrogen may be responsible for the high prevalence of prostate cancer in men. That has been extrapolated to [imply that] estrogen causes cancer in men and now everyone thinks that itâ??s bad and everyone is on this kick to lower estrogen in men to protect against that. What does the literature say?â?¦All of the studies to-date, 50 years of studies, where testosterone has been utilized to increase estrogen levels, show it aromatizes to estradiol and all of these levels [testosterone, estradiol and estrogen] are increased. There is no study to support any increased risk of cancer of the prostate when estrogen levels are raised.â??

It is only when estrogen levels are too high and testosterone levels are too low that negative effects can occur in menâ??s health [Estrogen Dominance in Men]. Testosterone levels should be restored to their optimal range to avoid the detrimental effects of this imbalance. â??Again, 50 years of studies demonstrate that testosterone administration, which raises serum estrogen levels, does not cause prostate cancer.â??10
References

Wang C, Cunningham G, Dobs A, et al. Long-term testosterone gel (AndroGel) treatment maintains beneficial effects on sexual function and mood, lean and fat mass, and bone mineral density in hypogonadal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 May;89(5):2085-2098
Darby E, Anawalt BD. Male hypogonadism: an update on diagnosis and treatment. Treat Endocrinol. 2005;4(5):293-309.
Watt PJ, Hughes RB, et al. A holistic programmatic approach to natural hormone replacement. Fam Community Health . 2003; 25(1):53-63.
Miner MM, Seftel AD. Testosterone and ageing: what have we learned since the Institute of Medicine report and what lies ahead? Int J Clin Pract. 2007 Apr;61(4):622632.
Amin S, Zhang Y, Felson DT, Sawin CT, et al. Estradiol, testosterone, and the risk for hip fractures in elderly men from the Framingham Study. Am J Med. 2006 May;119(5):426-433.
Shibata Y, Ito K, Suzuki K, Nakano K, et al. Changes in the endocrine environment of the human prostate transition zone with aging: simultaneous quantitative analysis of prostatic sex steroids and comparison with human prostatic histological composition. Prostate. 2000 Jan;42(1):45-55.
Bosland MC. Sex steroids and prostate carcinogenesis: integrated, multifactorial working hypothesis. Ann NY Acad Sci. 2006 Nov;1089:168-176.
Morgentaler A, Traish AM. Shifting the paradigm of testosterone and prostate cancer: the saturation model and the limits of androgen-dependent growth. Eur Urol. 2009 Feb;55(2):310-320.
Roddam AW, Allen NE, Appleby P, Key TJ, et al. Insulin-like growth factors, their binding proteins, and prostate cancer risk: analysis of individual patient data from 12 prospective studies. Ann Intern Med. 2008 Oct;149(7):461-471.
Rouzier N. (2007). How to achieve healthy aging. Salt Lake City, UT: WorldLink Medical Publishing.
Pechersky AV, Mazurov VI, Semiglazov VF, Karpischenko AI, et al. Androgen administration in middle-aged and ageing men: effects of oral testosterone undecanoate on dihydrotestosterone, oestradiol and prostate volume. Int J Androl. 2002 Apr;25(2):119-125.

#13

Lose some fat and get tested again. You are carrying around 40+ lbs of extra fat.


#14

yeah, i'd lay off on the plan for a "real" cycle and let the TRT, diet and exercise have some time to work.

if you had low test AND thyroid, your metabolism is gonna be picking up quite a bit here.... but like others suggested, talk to your doc about getting the estrogen under control (with an aromatase inhibitor).