HST Vs Bill Starr's Madcow 5x5

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

People are also underestimating things with this overtaining stuff. You can be natural and recover from a large volume of physical activity! That is, if you take away time from other stressors in life. However, if you were to have NO real job or other stressful obligations and were getting paid to be physically active, you could work up to a very high level of physical work throughout the week. 20 hours of physical activity is not even uncommon for some college athletes. Granted, all of this activity is not all intensive work such as weight training and plyos. But it is a far cry away from the shitty 3 hours most people get, that is if they even attempt to get this much. Refer to JB’s G-Flux article. [/quote]

Actually i think that tbt are harder to recover than splits. Not everyone (even some advanced guys)can make progress in a tbt routine from start, because you need some overall conditioning to keep a good level of intensity in this kind of workout. Plus, i know a lot of fighters who use split routines, because they train right before fight training, and they can recover from a back and biceps workout(keeping the volume reaseonable) but not from a full body workout before fight training. Waterbury also said in a past article that he uses a upper/lower split rather than tbt for people who start with a low work capacity.

About the discussion about HST, this its a interesting post i found in the James Chan’s blog (that guy who wrote the “Shotgun” article last week):

Also, the other stuff in this blog are worth reading.

[quote]Analysis of HST

HST or Hypertrophy Specific Training is a popular training program, partly because it has a marketable name. For those of us who are more concerned with mass (and not so much athletic performance), then a name like Hypertrophy Specific Training will raise a lot of interest. HST is the brainchild of Bryan Haycock, and it espouses these principles:

Train each body part every 48 hours, or basically three times per week.
Increase the weight each and every workout.
Decrease the reps every two weeks.
Decondition the muscle before you do it all over again.
There’s more to it than that, but those are the basics. For instance, HST prescribes 2 sets per exercise. Here’s my take on HST:

  1. The high frequency of training is good for size. For gaining, retaining and building on what you’ve gained in size, it is always better to train more frequently (3-4 times per week). For high frequency training, then HST fits the bill.

  2. Two sets per exercise really doesn’t incur as much growth as higher set totals. This is one drawback to HST. Two sets per exercise works well for beginners and old people, but not so much for the intermediate to advanced lifter. High frequency/low set training is great for strength, but crappy for size and hypertrophy. Unless you’re doing other physical activities (MMA, strongman competition, shotput, etc.), then it’s better to vary your set totals from workout to workout: i.e. 3 sets-6 sets-2 sets.

  3. The periodization of reps should be compressed into a week’s span. I know, I keep pounding this point in, but it needs to be said: your body responds better to compressed cycles of reps rather than longer cycles. Whereas HST has you doing 15 reps in Week One, 10 reps in Week Two and 5 reps in Week Three, you will get better results by doing it all in one week: Monday (15 reps), Wednesday (10 reps), Friday (5 reps).

Cycling your reps within the week is much better, because you will gain size and strength at a faster rate. Overall, HST is not a bad program. But if you vary the sets and use weekly cycles of reps, then HST will be a great program.

Posted by James Chan, NSCA-CPT: at 8:35 AM

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nice article, i agree with what he said about the mixed reps within the week

about tbt being more intense than splits, i know it definitely has to do with just switching things up (and my week off was right before i switched) but damn, i switched to an upper/lower split on saturday from full body routines which i stayed with for about 6.5 months (besides a 5 week period) and i am so damn sore after doing upper saturday and lower sunday. seriously every movement i make i feel sore. its nice in a way since i havent felt like this in a while lol

I’m not sure if its more intense, but i think its more demanding on recovery because its lets you completely exausted. But about soreness its more likely to get sore from a bodypart workout because you spend a whole workout hitting a lot few areas of the body rather than hitting everything but with less volume.

Regarding the mixed reps within the week, IMHO it has the advantage of being always training everything, not staying away from some rep range for long… but this 2week phases in each rep range have the advantage of cycling the stress on your body: you start easy (actually not easy, but a weight that feels heavy but you are 100% sure you can do )on the 15s then you build up to some maximal sets of 15, and then you back off start easy on the 10s and start to build up to maximal sets of 10, and so it goes on… If you mix the reps during the week you start easy on all the rep ranges and then you build up to maximal sets on everything, what makes you to have a lot of very hard workouts in a row.

I’m on the Bill Starr/Madcow 5x5, and I’ve been on it for almost 3 months now, with excellent gains. I’m going to travel in about another month, so I’ll switch up my training to mainly bodyweight, and then I was planning to go for 2 months of HST before returning to the Madcow programme. Really interesting to read this thread, as it’s very relevant to my needs!

The one thing I’ve been wondering is, how many sets per exercise are optimal in HST? I’m asking because I want to pick big compound exercises, and I don’t think I’d be able to do even 3 honest sets of deadlifts, squats, bench press, military press, etc in one workout, let alone 3 times a week!

From HST FAQ:

[quote]

I suggest you do 2 sets per exercise during the 15s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 10s, and 1 set during the second week of 10s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 5s, and finish doing one set (after warm ups of course) during the last week of 5s. Always warm up first regardless of how many work sets you are doing.

The volume isn’t necessarily supposed to decrease each minicycle. It often does, simply as a result of the increasing poundages and cumulative damage.

If you are doing HST properly you won’t be able to just increase your volume at will. If you are doing HST properly you should already be using as much volume as you can reasonably handle and still feel healthy (no injuries etc).

HST builds strength sure enough, however, the actual manifestation of that strength depends on the recovery of the CNS (and other neuromuscular factors) from workout to workout. Sometimes a person will gain a little ground on their CNS recovery and their strength output will go up. Those who zigzag are more likely to experience significant “strength” gains mid cycle.

The size gains are dependant on what’s happening to the tissue. This of course is dependant on the absolute load as well as the relative condition of the tissue at the time.

So, should you increase, maintain or decrease “volume” as the cycle progresses? It depends! I know how many people hate to hear that…but its true. Here is how you decide. Keep in mind that these factors are to considered �??collectively�??, meaning each factor must be weighted, not taken as an absolute indicator.

Increase volume if:

You are never sore
You are never tired
You are not growing

Maintain volume if:

You are slightly sore most of the time
You are tired enough to sleep well, but not so tired you lose motivation to train.
You are noticeably �??fuller�??

Decrease volume if:

You are experiencing over use pain, and strain symptoms in joints and/or muscles.
You are tired and irritable all the time, yet don�??t sleep well.
Strength levels are significantly decreasing.

I said, �??The number of Sets is determined by the minimum effective volume (this changes over time according to current load and Conditioning.)" You said, �??I thought �?� that the expression of the hypertrophic genes was increased in proportion to time under tension, i.e. ‘more is better’ up to a rational point.�??

If I understand correctly, you are concerned about the �??minimum�?? effective volume part. Why should a person adjust the # of sets according to the minimum effective volume if �??more is better�??? Answer, because other factors such as Training Load and Training Frequency are inversely related to training volume. In other words, the higher the volume of exercise, the lower the Load and Frequency that can be effectively maintained over time. Likewise, the lower the training volume, the higher the Training Load and Training Frequency that can be effectively maintained.

It is just a matter of defining �??minimum�??. In this case, �??minimum�?? means as many sets as you can do without having to reduce the Load from set to set and the without having to reduce the frequency beyond 48 hours.

Keep in mind that some signaling proteins are turned on by the combination of time and tension, sometimes referred to as the �??time-tension integral�??, and others are turned on primarily by the magnitude of tension without regard to time. Nevertheless, both signal-types will respond with a flattened out bell curve. There is a point where the signaling response to the stressor is at maximum. Further load and/or volume will not elicit a greater response.

So yes, there is “a point of growth/no growth”. That point is determined by the Load, the Volume, and the level of Conditioning of the tissue. To understand this we have to look at what has to happen to the muscle during a workout in order to get it to grow.

In order of importance:

  1. Satellite cells must be activated, differentiated, and fuse with existing fibers, donating their nuclei.
  2. Mechanical stress must be transmitted to the sarcolemma (mechanotransduction) and contractile protein structures within the sarcomeres. This will trigger focal adhesion kinases (FAK) that in turn initiate the downstream signaling events leading to an increase the contractile and cytoskeletal protein expression/synthesis.
  3. pH and oxidative stress must be acutely increased within the muscle fiber.

Focusing just on the workout, this pretty much sums it up. If #1 doesn�??t happen, you will not grow�?�ever. If number two doesn�??t happen, you will grow a little, but you will soon reach the limits of the sarcoplasmic/nuclear ratio and growth will stop. If #3 doesn�??t happen, you will still grow quite significantly, but the rate of growth might be enhanced or facilitated if #3 is achieved.

#1 is achieved when a certain level of microtrauma is experienced by the fibers. This is brought about by load, eccentric contractions, and to a much lesser extent, hypoxia (A.K.A. #3) When load, eccentric contractions and #3 occur, each fiber will produce and release muscle specific-IGF-1 (sometimes called mechano-growth factor) The IGF-1 in turn seeps out of leaky sarcolemmas and acts on nescient satellite cells to initiate #1. Microtrauma is rapidly reduced from workout to workout (Repeated bout effect) thereby limiting the effectiveness of any given load to induce further hypertrophy.

#2 is achieved by loading a muscle that is actively contracting.

#3 is achieved by contracting a muscle (doing reps) until you create an oxygen deficit and subsequent hypoxic byproducts (e.g. lactate and oxygen radicals).

The afore mentioned physiological principles of muscle growth are what we follow in order to ensure that 1,2 and 3 happen.

1 set is not necessarily “better” than 3 sets.

As far as muscle hypertrophy is concerned, high duration of load is best. The cellular signals that are initiated by strain on the structural and contractile proteins of the cell are increased as time under load increases. If it weren’t for the involvement of fatigue in performing the actual reps and sets, you would be better off doing tons of sets and reps.

HST uses lower numbers of sets because the muscle is trained much more often. So, the muscle isn’t actually loaded for less time, its just that the loading is more evenly spread out over time to keep the signal more constant. If there are any factors that allow a person to do more sets per workout, he/she should do them.

From what other research there is on the time course of genetic expression in response to overload, it is clear that we don�??t even come close the amount of time needed to elicit the greatest hypertrophic effect. But what are you going to do? We have to lift the weight a lower it over and over in order to overload the muscle. From the overload research, I personally feel longer time under tension is better. But you have to balance that with CNS fatigue, and absolute load.

More sets with heavier weight is better than fewer sets with less weight. But there is a limit to our exercise tolerance. So you have to figure out a way to get as much loading of the muscle as you can, as often as you can, and still be able to constantly increase the load over time, without burning out or getting injured.

Keep in mind that HST does not dictate that the total volume (i.e. number of sets per body part) over the course of the week should be lower than what a person is accustomed to using with traditional routines. HST only advises that the volume be evenly distributed over more workouts in the same time period. So if you are used to doing 9 sets for back on “back day” using a traditional routine (e.g. training each body part once per week), HST would have you do 3 sets at a time for 3 different workouts.

Obviously, a guy who is used to doing something like 12 sets for back once per week, is not going to gain much by dropping to doing only 1 set for back even if it is 3 times per week. He went from 12 sets to 3 sets per week. Not only that, but HST would have him use submax weights most of the time where he is obviously plateaued and used to doing 100% max weights (Not true 100%, but 100% with the fatigue that inevitably accumulates by the 3rd set). This is just too great a reduction in training to provide him with significant gains. The key here of course is Strategic Deconditioning, that would then allow him to begin growing again, with less “average” weight and volume, but higher frequency.

Well, for me, 2 sets is enough on most bopdyparts. But then again, with body parts like back, I will usually do 3 sets at different angles of pull and grip widths.

But the amount of volume each person is used to varies. I am not saying that you have to train to your volume limit. I’m just saying that if 1 set isn’t enough, do another. Do too much and you’ll begin to get progressively weaker, and/or injured and you will lose your desire to train.

At first, you won’t know how much is too much and how much is too little. So, start with 1 work set per body part per exercise, and work up from there.

Sometimes, you will find that you need to do more during the lighter workouts, and fewer sets during the heavier workouts. I hate to say this, but play it by ear, while you stick to the principles. You have to learn what it feels like. You have to actually experience growth from a series of workouts to be able to associate the specific feeling of “enough” work with subsequent growth.

But just a hint, you will feel whether the set is a good one or not before you finish the set. You will literally feel the strain of the weight on the muscle itself. You have to look past the effort required to lift it, and try to feel the mechanical strain on the muscle. “Off the record” it is a type of pain, kind of like the pain you feel when you stretch a muscle. Its mild, but it is in the “belly” of the muscle. When your done with the set, the muscle will pump, and in the morning you will be a little stiff in that bodypart. I hate to talk in such subjective terms like this but this is where experience actually means a hill of beans.

Yes, you can damage a muscle to such a degree that it doesn’t work properly 36-48 hours. The thing is, this type of damage isn’t necessary to get it to grow. In fact, you can get necrotic fibers (dying fibers) if the damage is too severe. So too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

It isn’t absolutely necessary to be able to “feel” this in the muscle. It is just a way of judging something that is inherently hid from view.

Trial and error is just as good as “feeling it”. If you get so sore that you can’t move, you’ve obviously overdone it. You will recover, but it isn’t necessary to cause that much damage. The serious damage is usually the result of too much too soon after a layoff. Too much burn won’t cause it. It is usually the result of super high volume when one is not accustomed to the weight nor volume. [/quote]

[quote]Time under load (TUL) - how much does it matter when loads are increasing

People often make the mistake of overthinking this. It doesn’t take much time for a given (effective) load to trigger signals inside muscle cells to start growing. In a sufficiently deconditioned muscle, only 1 set of 10-12 reps is sufficient to cause measurable anabolic changes.

However, the more you train, the more resistant your muscle becomes to the training stimulus. We’ve know this for years, and recently we have some good research to demonstrate it by measuring signaling molecules in trained and untrained exercisers after a single bout.

So, the first solution to the problem of becoming resistant to the lifting stimulus is to create a more potent stimulus by lifting more weight. You can do this until you reach your strength limits.

Another solution is to lift the same amount of weight a bit longer by doing more sets and/or reps. This works to a point, but soon (2-3 weeks) will fail to produce growth once again.

The problem arises when guys continue to increase volume because they are at their strength limit. This begins to drain the CNS and recovery takes longer and longer. Eventually, they have to rest so long between training each bodypart that they are unable to produce consistent gains…the stimulus is just too infrequent.

I won�??t go into just how deep the misinformation and misunderstanding runs in bodybuilding. Suffice it to say, VERY few people who are serious about lifting understand how muscle grows and how best to train for growth. They have some idea of course, but there is enough doubt in their minds that they continually change their methods in hopes that it will work better. Eventually, they will experience gains once in a while, but because they do not understand the true cause and effect of those gains, they misattribute the gains to something else, usually something coincidental to the period during which they made gains. This leads to all kinds of false notions about what works and what doesn�??t.

In HST, the reason volume tends to decrease as load increases, is to spare the CNS and allow more frequent training. It has NOTHING to do with what people call periodization. If a young guy can handle 2-3 sets during the 5�??s, and still feel good for the next workout, go for it! Unfortunately, most guys can�??t do this, and they experience dramatic results nonetheless with 1 or 2 sets. The gains they might experience by doing one more set would most likely not be noticeable as long as frequency is high, anyway.

I can’t really tell you how you should feel after a set. If your muscle is resistant to growth, you will have to do a little more to get it to grow, and hence, you will feel more tired. However, if your muscle is sensitive to the training stimulus, you can do less and still grow and hence you will not feel nearly as tired after an effective workout.

I would suggest that you try to do 2 sets during the 5s if you don’t “feel” much from doing only 1 set. I do 2 sets on the basic movements and then I might throw in another exercise of 1 or 2 sets (depending on the muscle group) just to top things off.

Many people will also be stronger on the second set than on the first set of 5s. For this reason a second set of the same exercise would also be recommended.

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Thanks a lot, Sagat! Exactly what I needed!

Hey G87, make sure to read this stuff before trying the program: hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin/ib314/ikonboard.cgi?act=SF;f=13

madcow’s 5x5 plus an arm-only day is your best bet. Of course you train almost your whole body each day, but it works very well and it has been proven to work well, for everyone. Search for some threads on elitefitness and you can find result threads and such. The whole notion that it is for beginners is total BS, there are a lot of big strong bastards who use this program (and certain variations, like the periodized version) and still get results.

The intermediate version of the 5x5 would be good to start with.

here is a good resource:

The advantage to this program is that it uses the KISS methodology. When beginners use this program for the first time it is like christmas every training session. By that I mean weekly increases for almost all the lifts.

But for god sakes include an arm day. 9 sets for bis, 6-9 sets for tris (although with all the pressing it might be best to keep the volume down).

The arm day I usually tack onto the program looks like this:

DB Curls 4 sets, 8 reps (go up in weight each set)
DB preacher curls 3 sets, 8 reps
DB Hammer curls 3 sets, 6 reps
Inclince DB curls 2 sets, 8 reps

Weighted dips 3 sets
Skullcrushers w/ ez-bar 3 sets
Pushdowns 3 sets
1 arm DB extension 2 sets

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
MrQ wrote:
CT is natural
[/quote]

dont know if anyone mentioned this (cuz i didnt read through the whole thread), but why not alternate b/w high frequency/low volume and low frequency/high volume? you know, to get the best of BOTH worlds. works GREAT for me, and i think that approach would work for everyone! remember, no training system will work forever.