T Nation

HRT Woes

I have been on test. cyp HRT for about 8 weeks now (after 2 weeks of failed Androgel ). My GP tried to send me to an endo., but he was not in touch with HRT (actually wanted me to stop after being on it for 5 weeks and had no clue that hCG is used for HRT!!!). My GP and I agreed to have Dr. John Crisler act as a consultant and my GP would prescribe the meds. Well, after spending the $300 consultation fee (out-of-pocket) and money on bloodwork, Dr. John wanted to add in hCG and Arimidex (my E2 = 41). While I was heading out the door to pick up my prescriptions, my GP called my house. He backed out of adding in this treatment for fear that he will lose his license for prescribing a “breast cancer drug for women”. What the
f%$k!!! Instead of my doc reading what these meds are used for, he decided to bail on the whole thing. So, I’m now out $300 and have the doses of the 2 meds I need to start feeling better with no way to get them. Now, the only way to get them is to fly to Michigan to have Dr. John admit me as a patient into his practice, then write out the scripts. This doc screwed me!!! I could’ve used the $300 to fly out to MI in the first place. Now, instead of spending $400 for the total office visit to Dr. John, I’m going to probably wind up spending 2x that amount now. I emailed my doc the paper on hCG, as well as, references on Arimidex and its uses for men, but I think its probably a lost cause. So, for all of you out there on hCG and Arimidex, count your blessings because some docs just don’t get it (or want to take the time to understand it). Imagine if every doc in the world bailed on something when they were challenged…we’d never advance in our treatment of any ailment!!! Any thoughts on how to convince my GP to change his mind? Thanks for listening to me vent.

Mike

I sympathize with you. I managed to convince my doc to put me on Arimidex, but no go on the HCG. According to him, the pharmacy gives him a hard time when he prescribes HCG to men, so in his words he “doesn’t want to deal with it.” How nice. My nuts are shrinking, and he doesn’t want to deal with a phone call from a pharmacist.

I’ve got an appointment to see an endo in March. Hopefully he’ll actually be willing to do his job.

Screw it. You got Crislers protocol. Do it yourself. You don’t need a scrip for Test, HCG, or anastrozole/arimidex. Get your bloodwork through LEF.

guys im sorry for asking probably such a dumb question but what is HCG and AI?

[quote]skimmy_jimmy wrote:
guys im sorry for asking probably such a dumb question but what is HCG and AI?[/quote]

Human Corionic Gonadotropin; Aromatase Inhibitor

MichaelOH,
You do need a script for test, hCG, and Arimidex!!! Also, I’m looking to do things right.

Mike

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
Screw it. You got Crislers protocol. Do it yourself. You don’t need a scrip for Test, HCG, or anastrozole/arimidex. Get your bloodwork through LEF.

[/quote]

thats what I would do. If Dr’s dont want to help or are too chicken chit to help or dont want to educate themselves because the feel they know it all already, there are plenty of places out there where you can get stuff from.

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
Screw it. You got Crislers protocol. Do it yourself. You don’t need a scrip for Test, HCG, or anastrozole/arimidex. Get your bloodwork through LEF.

[/quote]

Great idea. So when he has to travel and takes his stuff with him, like most ADULTS, he is transporting illegal drugs across state lines. Schedule 3 drugs at that.

Have fun in jail.

Possessing illegal drugs doesn’t seem like much of a big deal until your a grown adult with alot to lose. I know because Ive been there.

[quote]V R wrote:
Great idea. So when he has to travel and takes his stuff with him, like most ADULTS, he is transporting illegal drugs across state lines. Schedule 3 drugs at that.

Have fun in jail.

Possessing illegal drugs doesn’t seem like much of a big deal until your a grown adult with alot to lose. I know because Ive been there. [/quote]

In a perfect world he would not have to make the choice between self directed HRT or no HRT. Alas…we don’t live in that world.

I have chosen the former, but I do not expect that it will be that way forever. When I have more time I will find a Doc like Crisler, even if I have to go to MI.

But in the meantime I’ll be damned if I am not going to ramp up my QOL.

BTW, when I travel I do not take anything with me. I went for 47 years without HRT so I cant imagine why a few days would kill me. OTOH for those who are gone longer or who are uncomfortable with interupting then there is always UPS:) What can Brown do for you? Deliver your gear to your hotel, thats what.

These are all very individualized, personal descisions. A guy asks for advice, people give it. No one size fits all.

[quote]mikandrea wrote:
He backed out of adding in this treatment for fear that he will lose his license for prescribing a “breast cancer drug for women”. What the
f%$k!!! Instead of my doc reading what these meds are used for, he decided to bail on the whole thing. [/quote]

Mike – I am having trouble finding scholarly lit on aromatase inhibiter used in conjunction with Male HRT but here are couple links you might be able to take to your doc:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=149981

http://www.seniorfitness.com/Show_Disease_and_Healing_Protocol.html?ProtID=130&Title=Male%20Hormone%20Modulation %20%20%20%20%20Therapy,

http://www.lef.org/protocols/male_reproductive/male_hormone_restoration_01.htm


ON EDIT: here are the scholarly refs to the LEF protocols, perhaps something is to be gleaned from that:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/male_reproductive/male_hormone_restoration_refs.htm


Secondly since Crisler has already consulted is it possible to contact him to see if he really requires the office visit?

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Mike – I am having trouble finding scholarly lit on aromatase inhibiter but here are couple links you might be able to take to your doc:

[/quote]

I think his GP was not referring to the AI as a breast cancer drug but to the HCG.

Since Mike doesn’t want to do it solo I would ask Crisler’s secretary if she can recommend any Docs in MikeA’s area. I have corresponded with her but I did not think to ask her if she could refer or not. Kinda dumb!

Mike I am thinking that we need to all work together on coming up with scholarly articles re the use of anti-aromatase with Male TRT. Something that doesn’t rely on Dr. Crisler either – I think he is probably a terrific doctor, but having worked with healthcare professionals for several years in the late 90s I can see how your doctor might get upset if he looked at Crisler’s website. . .there is something about the “mancave” stuff, etcetera on the site that might make a more conventional doctor feel a little funny. JMHO based on working w doctors.

At anyrate, here is something I found on an alternative medicine site that might be useful to you and me:

http://www.alternative-doctor.com/anti-ageing/testosterone.html

CAUTION aromataze

The picture isn’t quite as simple as a sounds. This is due to the fact that some testosterone is converted into an unwanted oestrogen form, by an enzyme called aromataze. More so in later life. It is this male oestrogen or xeno-oestrogen (measured as sex hormone binding globulin or SHBG) which leads to prostatic enlargement and NOT testosterone itself, as you may have been led to believe. Male oestrogen also adds to the risk of heart disease.

Dosing is therefore not a matter for self-treatment. Blood tests are required to learn the existing levels of SHBG. If it’s high, this tricks the pituitary and interferes with the secretion of LH (luteinising hormone), which then scores low. LH is meant to stimulate the testes to secrete testosterone. If LH is high and testosterone low, the regulation pathway is probably OK but the testes are not responding to the signal.

We also need to block the aromataze pathway, to prevent the convertion into male xeno-oestrogen, which is otherwise bad news. Failure to grasp the importance of this side path is the chief reason for ineffective and mis-managed male hormone supplementation. Even if you are not contemplating testosterone supplements, this build up of male ostreogen can put you in danger, through heart disease and through prostate cancer. At the very least you will tend to feminize, as older men do.

Known antagonists of aromataze are saw palmetto and zinc. If you are supplementing testosterone, you MUST take at least 300 mgm of saw palmetto and 50 mgm of zinc daily. Saw palmetto may also block metabolism of testosterone to androstenedione, another potent androgen which has been implicated in prostate disease. Also good news is that plants in the crucifer family (cabbage, kale, brocolli and brussel sprouts) contain large amounts of an oestrogen antagonist called indole-3-carbinol, I3C for short. This has been shown to be very helpful against women’s hormone dependent cancers, such as breast and cervical cancers. We men can benefit from the same breakthrough. Eat plenty from this group. Chrysin (passion flower), available as capsules or cream also has a definite beneficial effect in this context. Avena sativa (oats) is also said by some to increase free testosterone.

If the SHBG cannot be brought down to safe levels, it may be wise to consider a drug called Arimidex (anastrozole). It is prescribed to breast cancer patients, to eliminate the oestrogen problem. For a male using it in this way, the correct dose is no more than 0.5 mgm 2- 3 times a week. Obviously, this is a prescription-only matter.

Arimidex is NOT used routinely with testosterone supplements.

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
I think his GP was not referring to the AI as a breast cancer drug but to the HCG.
[/quote]

http://www.arimidex.net/

“Welcome to Arimidex.net, this website is an international information resource for healthcare professionals with an interest in breast cancer treatment.

Thanks for the responses guys. Yeah, I was referring to Arimidex as the “breast cancer drug”. I had my appointment with my GP this morning. The GP agreed to let me perform a 1-month “trial” of hCG and Arimidex. I have to pick up the prescription this afternoon. He then states that he will have more tim to investigate these meds and get all of his questions answered from Dr. John.
FYI, Dr. Crisler cannot prescribe any meds unless you were physically seen in his clinic. Also, their office does not recommend any docs to you…its against his policy.
As always, I thank everyone who responds, but I will NEVER resort to getting this stuff illegaly. The risk is certainly not worth the reward. I would rather figure a way to save up enough to fly and see Dr. John and have him write the scripts. To each their own, but I’m not about to ruin my life and the lives of my wife and kids by doing some stupid crap like that.

Mike

E-loo,
I know what you mean about the website design. I think he just is trying to get it across that its all for men.
I have accumulated a fair amount of stuff on Anastrozole and a few on hCG. Maybe it is time we get a sticky with articles to refer to.
Thanks for the response.

Mike

[quote]mikandrea wrote:

The GP agreed to let me perform a 1-month “trial” of hCG and Arimidex. I have to pick up the prescription this afternoon. He then states that he will have more tim to investigate these meds and get all of his questions answered from Dr. John.[/quote]

Hey mike that sounds really good – from what ksman has written re his treatment with AI you should see results within that period.

That is pretty much how I plan to pitch AI to my doc when I see him next month – “let’s just try it for a month and see what happens . . .”

I am also getting ready to post a thread asking people to contribute any scholarly articles they know about to support AI + TRT. Hope you don’t mind I am referring to your thread and quotes as a reason.

[quote]e-loo wrote:
“Welcome to Arimidex.net, this website is an international information resource for healthcare professionals with an interest in breast cancer treatment.
[/quote]

Oops! My bad. And thanks for the website. Gonna spend some time on that.

[quote]mikandrea wrote:
E-loo,
I know what you mean about the website design. I think he just is trying to get it across that its all for men.[/quote]

Oh I agree, and I have no doubt that Dr. Crisler is a great doctor – I’m just thinking for example how my conservative GP might react to the website – He would probably think it all looks a little “kooky”

Come now! We are here to learn from each other. Its not a combat sport. Just ignore the advice that is unsuitable to your unique circumstances. Or disagree with it. Thats fair, and useful. But there is no need for implied ad hominem attacks.

May I respectfully suggest we return to exchanging experiences and advice and skip the personal stuff?

Nuff said.

AI Case Studies

Notice the dosage used; 1 mg/day!

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v16/n1/full/3901154a.html