HRT - Injection Frequency?

[quote]PV Wolf wrote:
Hi All - after 4 + months on 10g (mg?)
androgel with little relief of depression/anxiety/fatigue, today,I am going
for my first T shot of 100g/weekly.
Questions : My Agel #s were between 450 and 500 on average, free T was between 13
and 16, is it likely that getting my numbers over 700 or so would make a big difference or am I barking up the wrong tree with HRT ? Can I use Agel to smooth the bumps between shots ? I have also been on Zoloft for a few months and thats doing very little as well. Hoping to really up the T, feel better and lose the meds.

I guess my big question is : with my Agel #s and no relief, does it seem possible that shots could actually
make a difference ? E-loo, are you still improving ? thanks- PV[/quote]

See if you can get on HCG 250iu EOD and 1mg arimidex/wk. The shots may still leave you not feeling right in terms of mood, energy and libido. There may be a month or so where you feel great then that may fade as SHBG increases and E levels compete for T receptors. My TRT was giving me high levels, good anabolic and androgenic responses, but mood, energy and libido were not right. The TRT was failing for me on some issues like that. The thing that made it work was the arimidex/anastrozole.

One answer to the lows of weekly injections is simply to inject more often. Your testes did not release T once a week. The time-release aspect of testosterone esters is very much imperfect. Perhaps weekly injections with HCG and AI would have not been such a poor result for me, but I did not have the options to get on AI until 6 months into TRT.

Yo Mike. im 17 right now and im taking Deca 100mg every 2 weeks injection (Have the purest Deca available)
Danabol DS 10mg 4 pills a day and Anabol yellow thai’s 10mg 2 caps a day and Testrostrone Suspension. From all this i gained over 50lbs and incresed my bench by 75lbs since September 2006 till now. You would see results after your first workout with Danabol DS.

tdawg,
Thanks, but I think you’re in the wrong forum. We’re all using test to get our numbers back to normal, not cycle. Be careful with what you do and read as much as you can.

To everyone else, I see my endo. on the 17th and hopefully, he will put me on HcG. I’ve got the papers from Dr. John Crisler and the research study that eloo or KSMan provided me with. I called ahead of time and they said he sees “a lot” of TRT patients so we’ll see what happens. Have a great weekend everyone.

Mike

hi i cant see myself putting gel on and worrying about sweating it off anymore. i called the doc today and she switched me to 100mg test shots a week.

now is this true that EOD injections, compared to once weekly, A) provide more stable levels B) overall is more efficient (ie. more testosterone over a 7 day period is “enjoyed”) and C) can fit into an insulin syringe, making this injection easiest to administer(?) as well as the least painful(?)

my last question is, if i read from multiple reputable sites online instructions with pictures, do i still really need to have a human show me first?

and my last last question is the vastus lateralis the “best” injection site? for what reasons?

not kidding, seriously last question: is using a heating pad truly worth it? or is it like using a belt ot squat

haha got you good you f******. whats up with this ELMA cream i hear about?

[quote]KSman wrote:
PV Wolf wrote:
“The shots may still leave you not feeling right in terms of mood, energy and libido. There may be a month or so where you feel great then that may fade as SHBG increases and E levels compete for T receptors. My TRT was giving me high levels, good anabolic and androgenic responses, but mood, energy and libido were not right. The TRT was failing for me on some issues like that. The thing that made it work was the arimidex/anastrozole.”

KSman is clearly well-informed and knowledgeable. I would offer another view. A clue is in the quote and in the OP original observation: transdermal T lowered his measured serum T level.

The most potent suppressors of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis (HPA), responsible for the secretion of LH (for which HCG is a convenient substitute) is not testosterone, but DHT and estrogen. Some men–among them diabetics, the obese, the sick and the aging–have high levels of aromatase. The skin has high levels of 5alpha reductase (PM Cy Willson for confirmation.) So, the paradoxical drop in T–and otherwise unexplained low T levels–can be due to estrogen and DHT suppression of the HPA.

Testosterone secretion and levels can be boosted in many–not all–men with an aromatase inhibitor (letrozole or anastrazole). A month of treatment can give prolonged benefit. (Clomid propable does not effect the DHT receptor in the HPA axis, but works nevertheless. It does not inhibit peripheral aromatase acitivity, so estrogen levels also may rise in men on Clomid.)

Thoughts outside the box, perhaps?

[quote]foxdie wrote:
hi i cant see myself putting gel on and worrying about sweating it off anymore. i called the doc today and she switched me to 100mg test shots a week.

now is this true that EOD injections, compared to once weekly, A) provide more stable levels B) overall is more efficient (ie. more testosterone over a 7 day period is “enjoyed”) and C) can fit into an insulin syringe, making this injection easiest to administer(?) as well as the least painful(?)

my last question is, if i read from multiple reputable sites online instructions with pictures, do i still really need to have a human show me first?

and my last last question is the vastus lateralis the “best” injection site? for what reasons?

not kidding, seriously last question: is using a heating pad truly worth it? or is it like using a belt ot squat

haha got you good you f******. whats up with this ELMA cream i hear about?[/quote]

Your first question should be self-evident. The short thin insulin needle is more comfortable and a lot less scary than a 1.5" needle.

The quads are easy to inject because you do not need to be looking at your backside when you inject. The quads are also safer as there are no major nerves at risk compared to an improperly sited glut injection. With the EOD injections of TRT doses, the injected volumes are very small and muscle pain does not happen.

With the quads, at least you can see veins under the skin and avoid these and not get the bleeders and bruises that can otherwise occur. Your T levels will be very steady. The peaks of weekly injections are avoided which are thought to create higher levels of E which would also increase SHBG.

With 1.5" needles in the butt, one probably wants the re-assurance of having someone with experience, professional or not, showing them what to do. With the 1/2" insulin needles, the quads are something that you could start on your own, but you still want to know what the ground rules are for location, technique, aspiration and hygiene etc.

The vastus lateralis is a large muscle group that is easy to see and reach. For many, they have thin skin there. That helps with seeing veins and needle depth.

Anyone with fat legs would have to use #25 1" needles. For the lean, 1/2" #29 .5ml is best. Do not use 1.0ml syringes, the larger piston size will reduce the pressure created by the plunger force and make the injection slowerrrrr. The markings on the .5ml syringe are easier to work with than with a larger capacity syringe.

There is also a loss or wastage with a large syringe with removable needles. The waste with insulin syringes is considered ‘zero’ in comparison.

Heating pads are for those who get pain otherwise and those are usually injecting LARGE doses. Does not apply to you or EOD injections. (In many of the cases where guys get sore from glut injections, they probably are injecting into a muscle that is chronically tight and tender. Massage will fix that muscle and the pain.)

You can inject elsewhere other than the quads if there is little fat. The quads may end up being more comfortable compared to other areas. The skin sensitivity varies by location.

The vastus lateralis is often recommended as it is a concise description. In general, inject from the top of the leg or off to an exterior angle, to the outside of the femur, one hand span away from the hip and knee.

Never inject in the inside half of the quads as there are nerves and large blood vessels there that must not be put at risk. Flex your quads to see the muscle groups and their bulk.

If one has very little muscle, injecting seeks scary. TRT can lead to increased muscle bulk to inject into.

If you are going to, or end up later, injecting HCG to save your nuts, you will be using the same size/length/gauge syringes and could inject 250iu SQ EOD on the same day that you inject T. That works well.

The HCG is not a IM injection, no need for that. Disregard what you read otherwise. The 3000iu injections of HCG for female fertility treatment is IM to get sudden and timed effects. Does not apply to your needs.

With 100mg/wk as 28mg EOD (.14ml for 200mg/ml), you will be steady. But you probably will end up with E2 levels that are non-optimal. Optimal is considered around the 17-20 range. E2 above that increases SHBG which reduces FT. The TF–>E2 aromatization reduces the FT and TT.

The increased E2 competes with FT at the T receptors. Increased increments of E2 levels can have disproportionate effects because of the leverage of these multiple effects. But every one’s E2 and SHBG response to TRT will vary and one’s symptoms and libido losses from E2 are also different.

Many docs will not treat E2 levels unless they are above reference range. You need a doc that will treat your symptoms and not [just] your lab results. It is a QOL issue. Keeping your testes working is also a QOL issue.

I tend to think that all need TRT+AI+HCG. Some who claim that they do not need all of that or their docs tell them that, may not understand that they could be feeling better in many regards than they do without these added items. Age will also have a big effect on things as SHBG increases with age.

In many states, one can simple ask for a box of insulin needles and get them. Otherwise you need a specific prescription.

my god Ksman. thank you so much ive never seen a board with such great help.

you have fed me so much relevant information; thank you for aiding in my knowledge.

ok so today i injected before i read this though:

i opened a 25 gauge 1.5" syringe

popped the cap off of the test bottle

pulled the needle stopper until full with air

plunged into bottle, flipped upside and drew

i pulled and the harder i pulled the harder it got to, and slowly, very very slowly test dribbled into the chamber. it wasnt a nice “full” flow, as in no air in the syringe as it filled.

pulled the syringe out of the bottle

at the end i pushed the needle plunger a bit to push out the excess air. when it got close to the testosterone oil, i stopped pushing.

cleaned area on the outside left part of my left thigh (aiming for the vastus lateralis) at the “equator” so to speak of my thigh (midway point on y axis)

i then got the needle in one hand and held back the skin with the other hand

i took a deep breath, and pushed the whole damn thing in up to the neck

no pain (ok maybe a little pinch at first) then i slowly pushed the plunger…is it bad to push harder on it, or should i try to go very very slowly

how long should it take to withdraw the oil from the bottle?

how long to shoot it into my muscle?

after it was very very close to the end of the oil, i stopped because i thought that at the end would be some air, does that matter?

then i pulled in one smooth brisk movement the needle out

done

what are your thoughts?

also, instead of using this stupid big 3ml 25 gauge 1.5 inch needle, which i just bought 30 of

should i switch to .5ml 29 gauge .5 inch (is this a standard insulin needle?) ? is .5 inches into my vastus lateralis enough? how can 1.5 inches get to the right spot and .5 inches get there too?

so basically injecting every other day is a smaller needle, and easier and faster draw, and provides better consistency of levels?

im thinking of switching from 1ml a week of 100mg to an every other day approach or every 3 days, whatevers easier to measure

Where to start!

Never push 1.5" into your quads or almost never anywhere except the gluts. If your legs are lean, 3/4" to 1" depth is all that you need.

The longer the needle, the more flow resistance. 1.5" for #25 is very slow. When you fill, pull the plunger down. You checked that the needle was tight on the syringe right?, the alcohol in the test ester, perhaps 1%, will boil as the syringe fill. When it gets to a bit past where you need, push in the plunger. The vapor reincorporates. Push out any remaining gases and adjust the dose amount.

A small amount of air injected into your muscle is nothing of concern. Some put a tiny bit of air in the syringe to push the dose out to reduce waste left in the needle.

Injection rate. You can push hard if you want. The rate of injection can cause pain for large injections. If you took 15-30 seconds to inject that would be ok, but many would injected .5ml faster than that. Whatever you feel comfortable with. The 1.5" #25 will be slow.

A larger capacity syringe will inject slower than a smaller one as the smaller piston creates higher pressure for a given force. That is why I tell guys to use a .5ml insulin syringe and not 1.0ml for EOD injections. That is critical for a #29 .5" needle.

So time to load and inject takes longer for smaller gauge (bigger number) needles and also longer for longer lengths. Don’t worry about boiling when filling. Don’t inject that deep. Once past the skin, there is almost no feeling as you go into the muscle. So go slower. And if you feel that something is obviously wrong, you can abort.

And you did not report that you aspirated.

You are very brave when you do your first injection!

[quote]foxdie wrote:
also, instead of using this stupid big 3ml 25 gauge 1.5 inch needle, which i just bought 30 of

should i switch to .5ml 29 gauge .5 inch (is this a standard insulin needle?) ? is .5 inches into my vastus lateralis enough? how can 1.5 inches get to the right spot and .5 inches get there too?

so basically injecting every other day is a smaller needle, and easier and faster draw, and provides better consistency of levels?

im thinking of switching from 1ml a week of 100mg to an every other day approach or every 3 days, whatevers easier to measure[/quote]

Please read the package. 100mg/ml is rare. Most are 200mg/ml. So are you injecting 100 or 200mg?

With small doses, you do not need to be deep in the muscle to get the job done. 1.5" is way to deep. Why do more damage and injury that needed. Damage is diameter times depth.

Smaller doses will draw faster, but a #29 never draws fast. Yes, more often with smaller amounts for the same dose/week will be provide steadier T levels.

The insulin needle is more comfortable and causes less damage.

foxdie wrote:
also, instead of using this stupid big 3ml 25 gauge 1.5 inch needle, which i just bought 30 of
[/quote]

What did you get charged for those needles?

At Sam’s Club with a business membership, 100 #29 1/2" .5ml insulin syringes cost $12-$13. 100 #25 1.5" 3ml syringes cost me $18 something a year ago. Walgreen’s will sell individual of those needles for a bit over $1.00 each. You may want to buy in bulk.

Are you using alcohol swabs?

4 dollars for 30 syringes, and she said i can exhange them if i bring them back for another type

so if im going to do EOD test injections then the needle i want is a 29 gauge .5ml .5 inch “insulin” needle?

and alcohol pads, yeah im gonna get those. i used purell alcohol based sanitizer to clean the area this time. im a stupid college kid so i do brash things sometimes.

and im trying to figure out the most i can get from my injects based on what i am given through the script. i have 3000mg of test to use before Oct 21st '07. I have already taken out about 1.7ml of the first bottle. What dose can i use every other day to fully use up all the test by Oct 21st '07? or how about 50mg every 3 days? that sounds easy to measure ya know?

Im bad with math and tried to figure it out haha

Yes, 50mg E3D will work as you suggested. But if your appointment gets pushed back you will have no cushion left.

Those syringes were very cheap.

Test is 200mg/ml?

For E3D you are injecting 50mg or probably .25ml. A 1.0 or 0.5 syringe would be easier to read and push. A #25 syringe at .5" would be ok. You could use a 1" and go .75 deep.

Don’t be using more when you do BW in September as your doc may then cut back on your dose if your levels look too high.

There are boxes of 100 or 200 alchohol prep pads that cost $2 - $3.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Yes, 50mg E3D will work as you suggested. But if your appointment gets pushed back you will have no cushion left.

Those syringes were very cheap.

Test is 200mg/ml?

For E3D you are injecting 50mg or probably .25ml. A 1.0 or 0.5 syringe would be easier to read and push. A #25 syringe at .5" would be ok. You could use a 1" and go .75 deep.

Don’t be using more when you do BW in September as your doc may then cut back on your dose if your levels look too high.

There are boxes of 100 or 200 alchohol prep pads that cost $2 - $3.[/quote]

test is 100mg/ml

and your saying with 3 10ml 100mg/ml bottles, they will last from now until my script runs out? I wanna make sure before i start using 50 every three days. (that would mean monday, wed, fri, which is the same as every other day right?)

I really don’t think you need to split that up into 3 shots per week, I would say 2 at the most and probably just 1.

I tried splitting up 250/mg per week into 2 shots, and then I just did one shot per week. I felt very little difference. If you are on for life, your going to get sick of needles 3 times a week. Good luck to you.

Monopoly

as the bottle of test cyp empties, do i have to put the end of the needle close and closer to the rubber top of the bottle as i hold it upside down to get the stuff out when theres not much left in the bottle?

like in short, can i/how do i make sure i can utilize all 10ml in the 10ml bottle.

[quote]foxdie wrote:
as the bottle of test cyp empties, do i have to put the end of the needle close and closer to the rubber top of the bottle as i hold it upside down to get the stuff out when theres not much left in the bottle?

like in short, can i/how do i make sure i can utilize all 10ml in the 10ml bottle.[/quote]

Do as you describe, you will get more air than usual to expel.

i would like to try once weekly until i can notice a difference that drives me to inject more frequently. dont wanna try and fix whats not broke yet. so with that in mind, and with 100mg per ml, what needle would u use for weekly injections?

also is 5 weeks the right time to get my first blood work? and if im sneaking in a little more than 100mg each inject, how many weeks out from the blood test should i taper the amount down to normal/slightly below normal?

OR

is it easier to just get my blood work done the last day before my next injection so levels are nice and low, and i can just lie to my doctor that it was done at the haflway point? I really want to get into the highest “safe” levels.

thanks so much! and i will NEVER go back to the gels again!

The fact that your prescription runs out on oct. 21,2007 simply means that you have until then to purchase all the refills on the prescription. It does not mean that you have to use up all off the refills. At 100mg/ml per weekly injection your bottles will last 10 weeks each or 30 weeks total. you do not have to wait until you finish a bottle before buying another one.

When you are getting low or your prescription is about to expire get another bottle. just be sure to purchase all refills before the prescription expires or make sure that your doctor will write another one before you run out of the testosterone.

[quote]foxdie wrote:
with that in mind, and with 100mg per ml, what needle would u use for weekly injections?

also is 5 weeks the right time to get my first blood work? [/quote]

#25 1" for quads (vastus lateralis) or #23 1.5" for gluts. DO YOU know where to inject etc?

For EOD injections of 200mg/ml, .14ml via a #29 .5" .5ml insulin syringe. 100mg/ml would be .28ml and might be too tedious to draw up and inject.

You will be injecting 1ml for 100mg. But most test esters are 200mg/ml for a .5ml injection. PLEASE check the product label to confirm mg/ml. Maybe you can switch to a 200mg/ml product to reduce injection volumes.

I would do the blood work later if there is going to be an E2 test. It takes a while for E2 to raise its ugly head. Suggest 6-8 weeks. You will also want time for the effects to change so you can record and discuss your [E] symptoms with your doc.

I do not play with my dose as I want to know what the lab results really mean. I guess I care because I end up paying over $400 for my blood work and I don’t want to read an artifact of jacking the dosing up and down.