T Nation

HRT Guys - Anti-Aromatase?

I know this thread may produce a little rehash of some of the older threads, for example:

ksman’s “In Praise of TRT+AI”
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1399735

The last time I had E2 tested it was:

Estradiol 40 pg/mL (12-45 normal male range)

One poster in the above thread says his doc tells him optimum E level is between 18 and 25ng

When I talk to my current endo about it, he says E2 is not imporant – “estrogen level doesn’t matter, only the testosterone to estrogen ratio. Only steroid abusers need aromatase inhibitors”

I am looking to change doctors. I have one in mind who I have talked to casually about treating me. I have not done labs yet with him or talked E2.

I am wondering how you convinced your doc to include AI’s like arimidex.

Thanks –

.

I’m curious how you’re supposed to know your Test/E2 ratio without testing for E2.

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that he’s right in saying that the E2 number by itself doesn’t tell you much and I’m skeptical of any number with the blanket description of “best” because we know it just isn’t that simple.

I’d always look first for symptoms. Do you have any reason other than a number (or lack of one) to cause you to question your E2 levels?

You certainly don’t need a doctor for Anastrozole and it’s much cheaper to buy the generic anyway, but I wouldn’t take anything unless I was convinced that I truly needed it.

Just my 2 cents…
Good luck!

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
You certainly don’t need a doctor for Anastrozole and it’s much cheaper to buy the generic anyway, but I wouldn’t take anything unless I was convinced that I truly needed it.

Just my 2 cents…
Good luck![/quote]

I have to agree strongly with happydog48 - especially when it comes to AI’s. AI’s are indiscriminate as to where they bind up aromatase enzyme. Aromatase enzyme in target tissue and organs play a very important role.

Take the brain for instance. Spontaneous aromitazation occurs in the substantia nigra so that dopaminergic neurons function. Without proper aromatisation symptoms of Parkinsonism occur. Another value to the spontaneous aromatisation of androgens to E2 at the brain if neural protection from blunt force trauma.

When you smash your head against something hard enough to damage the brain - the brain responds by spontaneous aromatisation of E2 at the site of the injury which is a potent anti-inflammatory and bathes the wounded area stunting additional damage.

There is also some evidence that the thyroid hormone metabolism in target tissue - possibly more important that serum levels of thyroid hormone - may be mediated by aromatisation to E2 in target tissue.

AI’s should not be used with a cavalier attitude IMHO.

  • Carl

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

I went off the herbal AI’s for three weeks to see how high my E2 was getting. 105! No wonder I feel tired, puffy, temperamental and no more uncontrollable woodies. My GP will not give me Adex, because it is a drug for women. So I went to C1 to fix the problem myself.

My “real” doctor is overseas and I wish she was here. She is progressive about HRT and E2 issues. I do have access to b/w so I will follow the accepted protocols to get into the 20-30 range instead. I’ll let you know if I am my “old self” in a couple weeks…
KNB

[quote]triceptor wrote:
happydog48 wrote:
You certainly don’t need a doctor for Anastrozole and it’s much cheaper to buy the generic anyway, but I wouldn’t take anything unless I was convinced that I truly needed it.

Just my 2 cents…
Good luck!

I have to agree strongly with happydog48 - especially when it comes to AI’s. AI’s are indiscriminate as to where they bind up aromatase enzyme. Aromatase enzyme in target tissue and organs play a very important role.

Take the brain for instance. Spontaneous aromitazation occurs in the substantia nigra so that dopaminergic neurons function. Without proper aromatisation symptoms of Parkinsonism occur. Another value to the spontaneous aromatisation of androgens to E2 at the brain if neural protection from blunt force trauma.

When you smash your head against something hard enough to damage the brain - the brain responds by spontaneous aromatisation of E2 at the site of the injury which is a potent anti-inflammatory and bathes the wounded area stunting additional damage.

There is also some evidence that the thyroid hormone metabolism in target tissue - possibly more important that serum levels of thyroid hormone - may be mediated by aromatisation to E2 in target tissue.

AI’s should not be used with a cavalier attitude IMHO.

  • Carl[/quote]

Well, I think taking a little bit of AI is fine. If you take AI’s to combat excessive estrogen, you will be fine.

1 mg/week of arimidex is fine. As long as you keep estrogen in the normal range…you got it…you’ll be fine.

There is too much pros with taking an AI for the above purpose than cons; especially if you do it right. If you take exogenous T, it is in your own best interest to take a little AI with it.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:I’d always look first for symptoms. Do you have any reason other than a number (or lack of one) to cause you to question your E2 levels?

You certainly don’t need a doctor for Anastrozole and it’s much cheaper to buy the generic anyway, but I wouldn’t take anything unless I was convinced that I truly needed it.[/quote]

Yes, I did have symptoms – brainfog, mediocre libido, fatigue. In addition I could not lose fat around middle despite intense efforts.

In late April I did begin to use a generic Anastrozole out of frustration w how I felt. Since then libido has markedly improved. Able to lose fat. In June one morning I had a revelation: I have my mind back, clear thoughts, clear analysis, I could learn things again. . .which I had begun to believe I would never get again.

I still experience fatigue but that might be related to some chronic shoulder pain.

I have not had an E2 test since starting that, although I requested E2 w my last 2 blood tests there was always some “mixup” w my endo so that it did not get ordered.

True – I guess I am to the point in my like that I would rather do something under Dr’s supervision. So I would prefer if possible not to continue w the generic. I’ve got some other medical conditions – would make me feel better if all was under Dr. supervision. Make sense?

I went from 105 to 44 in 15 days on liquid a-dex. 1mg day 1, 1 mg day 3, and .25mg EOD until day 14. B/W on day 15. I hope this helps.

cheers

[quote]triceptor wrote:

I have to agree strongly with happydog48 - especially when it comes to AI’s. AI’s are indiscriminate as to where they bind up aromatase enzyme. Aromatase enzyme in target tissue and organs play a very important role.

Take the brain for instance. Spontaneous aromitazation occurs in the substantia nigra so that dopaminergic neurons function. Without proper aromatisation symptoms of Parkinsonism occur. Another value to the spontaneous aromatisation of androgens to E2 at the brain if neural protection from blunt force trauma.

When you smash your head against something hard enough to damage the brain - the brain responds by spontaneous aromatisation of E2 at the site of the injury which is a potent anti-inflammatory and bathes the wounded area stunting additional damage.

There is also some evidence that the thyroid hormone metabolism in target tissue - possibly more important that serum levels of thyroid hormone - may be mediated by aromatisation to E2 in target tissue.

AI’s should not be used with a cavalier attitude IMHO.

  • Carl[/quote]

I don’t agree with this at all. Arimidex cannot turn off aromatase activity at all. And with TRT guys having high-normal T levels, the increased T levels drive more T–>E conversion at the aromatase reaction sites.

We are taking about lowering levels of E that are clearly not healthy for guys down to the levels of younger lean men. Young lean men are not suffering from low E.

Femara can be very harsh and small amounts can turn off E, but this is not something that should be used for TRT.

For non-believing doctors, one can get their own anastrozole and E2 blood work and do things right on their own.

[quote]e-loo wrote:True – I guess I am to the point in my life that I would rather do something under Dr’s supervision. So I would prefer if possible not to continue w the generic. I’ve got some other medical conditions – would make me feel better if all was under Dr. supervision. Make sense?
[/quote]

It’s your life and your health and I would never recommend doing anything that you’re not comfortable with.

That having been said up front, is it supervision or blessing that you’re looking for. If the Dr. prescribes the AI, he’s still going to need blood work to know if the dosage is correct. If you take the AI on your own, the blood work is still going to show if your dosage is correct. In other words, the “supervising” part is the reading of the blood tests and the comparison to “before” levels and that doesn’t have anything to do with who prescribes the AI.

I take test, hcg & anastrozole that I prescribe for myself. My doctor and I look at my blood results together and discuss them. Everything I do is under a doctor’s supervision. He just doesn’t know it.

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
e-loo wrote:True – I guess I am to the point in my life that I would rather do something under Dr’s supervision. So I would prefer if possible not to continue w the generic. I’ve got some other medical conditions – would make me feel better if all was under Dr. supervision. Make sense?

It’s your life and your health and I would never recommend doing anything that you’re not comfortable with.

That having been said up front, is it supervision or blessing that you’re looking for. If the Dr. prescribes the AI, he’s still going to need blood work to know if the dosage is correct. If you take the AI on your own, the blood work is still going to show if your dosage is correct. In other words, the “supervising” part is the reading of the blood tests and the comparison to “before” levels and that doesn’t have anything to do with who prescribes the AI.

I take test, hcg & anastrozole that I prescribe for myself. My doctor and I look at my blood results together and discuss them. Everything I do is under a doctor’s supervision. He just doesn’t know it.
[/quote]

This is great. You understand the bio and the ‘drugs’. It is a sad state of affairs that you could be put in jail for taking care of yourself.

What would be wrong with prescriptions? Might be cheaper.

I have a question about the correct dose of Armidex, but I did not want to start a new thread. I ordered some online but I have read many many different ideas on dosage on these forums. Post I have read here say anything from .5 ml twice weakly to 1 ml a day. I know that I have to see what works for me, but then I have also read that the product may be self limiting, so I could end up taking too much and wasting it.

Here is a bit of background:

I am male, 28 years old and the doc had my test checked because I was having bouts of depression and low energy levels. I had 228 test. I did not get any other numbers from him.

I also have been a lifter/exercise enthusiast for years mainly trying to shake a spare tire my whole life it seems. Then after the hypo gonad diagnosis from my doctor, I started to Google a LOT. I have read countless post, articles, and such (much of which on Tnation) and my life reads like a text book hypo gonad case to me, also I seem to have every thing pointing to elevated E2 levels including a lot of excess stomach fat, some small gyno in the chest, and a VERY hard time losing fat.

I eat better, work harder, do more cardio than anyone I know, but always the gut. I can lose fat, I get to the point where I have a lot of vascularity in my legs and arms but still the love handles, chest fat, and stomach fat persist.

So, now I am on Androgel and have decided to try Armidex with it right off the bat. I hope to see some nice results if I have always been high E2 and low test as I suspect. I already am seeing some changes from Andro, but I hope more will happen with the AI as well, but I want to know what to take.

I weigh 258lbs currently and I estimate I have about 20-30% bodyfat. So far I have been at .5ml of Armidex a day so far. Should I just stay at this level and look for results, or should I try a lower or higher dose.

FWIW I don’t care about “blessings”

My concern is

– it would be nice to have a prescription

– if not, it will be bad when generics are shut down

– it would be nice to be upfront w my doc given my other medical conditions.

[quote]LeoDeSol wrote:
I have a question about the correct dose of Armidex, but I did not want to start a new thread. I ordered some online but I have read many many different ideas on dosage on these forums. Post I have read here say anything from .5 ml twice weakly to 1 ml a day. I know that I have to see what works for me, but then I have also read that the product may be self limiting, so I could end up taking too much and wasting it.

Here is a bit of background:

I am male, 28 years old and the doc had my test checked because I was having bouts of depression and low energy levels. I had 228 test. I did not get any other numbers from him.

I also have been a lifter/exercise enthusiast for years mainly trying to shake a spare tire my whole life it seems. Then after the hypo gonad diagnosis from my doctor, I started to Google a LOT. I have read countless post, articles, and such (much of which on Tnation) and my life reads like a text book hypo gonad case to me, also I seem to have every thing pointing to elevated E2 levels including a lot of excess stomach fat, some small gyno in the chest, and a VERY hard time losing fat.

I eat better, work harder, do more cardio than anyone I know, but always the gut. I can lose fat, I get to the point where I have a lot of vascularity in my legs and arms but still the love handles, chest fat, and stomach fat persist.

So, now I am on Androgel and have decided to try Armidex with it right off the bat. I hope to see some nice results if I have always been high E2 and low test as I suspect. I already am seeing some changes from Andro, but I hope more will happen with the AI as well, but I want to know what to take.

I weigh 258lbs currently and I estimate I have about 20-30% bodyfat. So far I have been at .5ml of Armidex a day so far. Should I just stay at this level and look for results, or should I try a lower or higher dose.[/quote]

3.5mg of a-dex a week is probably too much. A little goes a long way. The potential problem from too much a-dex is joint pain, heart trouble, and the upset of brain function. Yes, really. 1.5 mg is a really effective dose especially for the small amount you are taking. Has your doctor ever done an A.M. cortisol test? If I were you, I would adjust my a-dex dosage, and get new b/w in 30 days.

A well circulated study had normal young males take 1 or 2mg/day of arimidex. After a while, can’t remember… 10-14 days, both groups ended up with the same E levels, 17pg/ml. The conclusion is that arimidex is self limiting in effect. It does not [normally] take males to levels that are unhealthy. However, I do know of one guy that reacts very strongly to arimidex and now uses 1/8mg per week.

So for most, more is simply a waste of product.

But femara is not self limiting and can unpredictably take some to very low levels. In view of how femara works, the concept of arimidex having predictable self limiting action makes it very useful.

I thought I would add these links to remind all of us about the need for a little Estrogen. 17pg/ml may be okay for young males with good hearts and strong bones… but since these young males are not on an AI for potentially the rest of their lives, these may bad test results for the rest of us.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=149981

http://pharmweb.usc.edu/brinton-lab/documents/Requirements%20of%20a%20Brain%20Selective%20Estrogen%20-%20Journal%20of%20Alzheimers%20Disease%202004.pdf

I will add to the list when I find more…