T Nation

HPTA and HCG Long Term

This might be a stupid question and if it is I’m so very very sorry. This is a theoretical question only and I have no thoughts of doing this.

If HCG use at 250iu’s e3d or twice a week is good to keep your boys up and running which in theory prevents any shutdown of the HPTA, why can’t HCG be run for extended periods of time? Say one was to use a blast and cruze method for a year or more and run HCG the entire time, wouldn’t your boys be G2G once you dropped the hormones?

Again,

Sorry if this is a stupid question, and I am guessing that there would be some long term issues with HCG use.

The larger part of suppressive effect from added testosterone – whether from injection or production stimulated by HCG – is from increased estrogen.

If E2 levels were kept low normal then there might well not be significant suppression issues, and no reason not to use long term at a moderate dose such as you mention.

This is on the assumption that the cycle would be properly run with use of AI and PCT. What kind of PCT would one look to for recovery in such a case? Would the normal 40/40/20/20 apply?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The larger part of suppressive effect from added testosterone – whether from injection or production stimulated by HCG – is from increased estrogen.

If E2 levels were kept low normal then there might well not be significant suppression issues, and no reason not to use long term at a moderate dose such as you mention.[/quote]

Interesting.

So given that information, might you think it would be acceptable for someone to blast and cruise (say, 8 weeks on, 4 weeks cruising, 8 weeks on followed by a stasis/taper plus a SERM) and still recover? (Assuming HCG is used on cycle and estrogen is kept in low normal ranges?)

Obviously, it’s impossible to say if one will recover, but I’m just curious about your opinion.

Well, one of the positive aspects of doing things the way I usually recommend is that there is no doubt about what is happening, despite spending no money on tests.

If instead deciding to go right to using HCG, and not doing any tests, then it remains unknown as to whether LH production is recovering or not. One might be allowing the suppression to continue for yet more months on end, with the result being a problem much harder, or impossible, to recover from.

Of course, testing for T level as a marker of recovery is useless while taking the HCG.

On the other hand, while the pricing for LH tests at the local lab was always quite high when I checked and for that reason I never made a practice of recommending it, I saw yesterday that LEF is charging only a little over $40 for the test. That is quite reasonable.

So if willing to do that, then yes, that would be a reasonable thing to do.

Could a combination of D-Aspartic Acid and Clomid during the “cruise” portion of a year-round “blast and cruise” beneficial for stimulating LH & FSH production?

Maybe running hCG 250iu ED-E3D and an AI the whole time, “blasting” for 6-12 weeks, and then “crusing” on low-dose test (~100mg/week) for 2-4 weeks while taking clomid and DAA, and repeat. Could something along these lines help prevent permanent HPTA damage?

I know there is a lot of hype surrounding DAA even though there really has that one study, but it was a very interesting study and so far anecdotal reports I’ve seen seem to correlate.

Well, personally I wouldn’t consider Clomid for life time use because it does have some slight DNA damaging activity (as does tamoxifen.)

If you meant for the Clomid use to be still only a fraction of the time, then that would be better. However if keeping E2 levels low-normal, I would think a SERM can be omitted once T production is restored, rather than using it for months on end.

As to whether DAA is useful long-term, I don’t know. It’s a reasonable thing to try.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Well, personally I wouldn’t consider Clomid for life time use because it does have some slight DNA damaging activity (as does tamoxifen.)

If you meant for the Clomid use to be still only a fraction of the time, then that would be better. However if keeping E2 levels low-normal, I would think a SERM can be omitted once T production is restored, rather than using it for months on end.

As to whether DAA is useful long-term, I don’t know. It’s a reasonable thing to try.[/quote]

Oh, I meant using Clomid during the “cruise” portion at a low-ish PCT dose, maybe combined with tamox or torem with both compounds at low doses each.

For example:

3 Months “blast”: High Dose AAS, hCG, and AI
1 Month “cruise”: ~100mg/week Test, Clomid, DAA
Repeat

Rather than to control excess estrogen, I figured that the Clomid would be beneficial for stimulating LH production while on low dose Test “cruise”. I wouldn’t expect levels to reach normal so fast or in the presence of low dose Test, but maybe it could at least prevent permanent damage and help make recovery more manageable when finally coming completely “off”.

Any merit in that speculation, or am I totally off base?

[quote]jMill2 wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Well, personally I wouldn’t consider Clomid for life time use because it does have some slight DNA damaging activity (as does tamoxifen.)

If you meant for the Clomid use to be still only a fraction of the time, then that would be better. However if keeping E2 levels low-normal, I would think a SERM can be omitted once T production is restored, rather than using it for months on end.

As to whether DAA is useful long-term, I don’t know. It’s a reasonable thing to try.[/quote]

Oh, I meant using Clomid during the “cruise” portion at a low-ish PCT dose, maybe combined with tamox or torem with both compounds at low doses each.

For example:

3 Months “blast”: High Dose AAS, hCG, and AI
1 Month “cruise”: ~100mg/week Test, Clomid, DAA
Repeat

Rather than to control excess estrogen, I figured that the Clomid would be beneficial for stimulating LH production while on low dose Test “cruise”. I wouldn’t expect levels to reach normal so fast or in the presence of low dose Test, but maybe it could at least prevent permanent damage and help make recovery more manageable when finally coming completely “off”.

Any merit in that speculation, or am I totally off base?[/quote]

I believe you would want to maintain the HCG levels on the 1 Month “cruise” period as 100mg of test is enough to shut you down.