T Nation

Hpbcd Thoughts

Hello Everyone,

I have seen HPBCD mentioned and was wondering if anyone has had any thoughts.

I am planning a first cycle and am not wanting to inject.

I have my cycle and pct all planned and have most of the required components. I just want to do a sublingual test no ester 25mg 5x daily for 12 weeks. this comes out to 825/wk. The reason I have it this high is because I know even if I do get HPBCD to complex the TNE with I will not get the full amount every dose. So I am hoping with this setup I will still end up roughly 700/wk and with it being spread into 5x daily it should keep it the levels fairly stable as well.

The cycle as planned-
Weeks 1-12
25mg TNE 5x daily
HCG 150iu/day planning to run full cycle if not i may start HCG 3-4 weeks in
Arimidex .25mg/day will continue to use Arimidex though pct as well.

PCT as planned-
Two days after final dose of TNE I will start pct as follows-
Weeks 1-4
Clomid 50/50/30/30
Nolva 40/40/20/20
and as stated above I will continue Arimidex though pct.

Open to all suggestions or tweaks to the above cycle.

It looks like I may have to order 1kg of the stuff from china and I know I do not need that much.

thanks all that reply,
Brightside

P.S. If I do get the HPBCD I will post and document the entire cycle for everyone to show how it works out.

33yrs
240lbs
bf% more then it should be
not sure of orm on lifts been away a while figured i would figure those back out during cutting back down to 10% bf before i start the cycle mentioned above. will also let me settle back into lifting in strict form so ill be ready for the weight ill be moving during cycle.
6ft 4in tall.

From what I remember about the oral efficacy of testosterone it is only about 7% of orally ingested testosterone actually makes it into the blood stream. So taking 825/week orally would be more like taking 57.75mg testosterone per week. So basically useless…

Also, why would you run hcg all the way up to your PCT?

Why not? I have found injection to be an educationally rewarding experience. Hell, most doctors and nurses have probably never injected themselves.

BigSkwatta,

I will be taking the tne complexed with hpbcd (hydroxypropylbetacyclodextrin) sublingualy i have heard this method is a lot more efficient then taking orals. i am not going to take orals because of the liver toxicity issues.

HPBCD Basics
By David Tolson

One of the primary issues concerning steroids and prohormones is that of optimal delivery. While most drugs and supplements are taken orally, there are a number of reasons why this method is largely ineffective with most prohormones. When taken orally, these compounds are extensively metabolized in the liver, making the dose used much larger than the amount that gets through. This may also place undue stress on the liver, especially with certain substances. Because of this, other delivery methods, such as transdermal, sublingual, and intranasal, have all become popularized, and each has advantages and disadvantages. This article discusses the compound hydroxypropyl-beta cyclodextrin (HPBCD), which can be used to facilitate prohormone delivery in a number of ways.

Cyclodextrins are a group of compounds that are commonly used in medicine to increase the aqueous solubility of drug substances by complexation [1]. Cyclodextrins are cyclic oligosaccarides, or sugars, which contain alpha-1,4 linked glucopyranose units (in the case of beta-cyclodextrins, seven of these units) in a truncated cone shape [2]. This results in a molecule that has an internal cavity that is hydrophobic and easily forms a complex with a steroid/prohormone molecule, while the outer surface of the cyclodextrin is hydrophilic, and this makes the complex easily dissolvable in water [2-4]. This renders prohormones much more bioavailable, and cyclodextrins are capable of enhancing nasal, sublingual, and transdermal delivery [5-6], among others. Moreover, cyclodextrins will cause much less irritation than other methods [3, 7].

The cyclodextrin of choice for prohormone delivery is HPBCD. When compared to other testosterone beta-cyclodextrin complexes, HPBCD was 1,533 percent more soluble in water, while another study found that HPBCD-steroid complexes were effective while beta-cyclodextrin-steroid complexes were not [4]. HPBCD also has an excellent safety profile.

Sublingual delivery

Sublingual delivery (administered under the tongue) presents an attractive alternative to traditional oral administration. Because of the limited surface area, the amount of prohormone that can be absorbed at one time appears to be 25 milligrams or less. However, when compared to oral delivery, even this amount is advantageous. One study found that a cyclodextrin complex containing 10 mg of testosterone delivered sublingually raised testosterone levels by 900% over baseline, with a 485% elevation at the two hour point. In contrast, even 200 mg of oral testosterone only raises levels by around 500% at the peak. A study comparing oral and cyclodextrin complexed 4-androstenediol also found that the sublingual version lead to a 261% greater increase in testosterone with one quarter of the dose, with the peak levels at 40 as opposed to 90 minutes. [4]

All in all, sublingual delivery is much more effective than oral for the amount used, but it does require more frequent dosing. Sublingual prohormones are usually taken 3-5 times daily.

Intranasal delivery

Intranasal delivery takes the trend of sublingual delivery even further. It is doubtful that more than 20 mg at a time will be absorbed using this method, and blood levels quickly spike 15 minutes after delivery and then dissipate to baseline by 90 minutes. Running a cycle using this method is impractical, as one has to dose up to 10 times daily. However, bioavailability is further increased ? intranasal delivery has the highest bioavailability of all prohormone delivery methods, short of injection [7]. Additionally, intranasal delivery provides the most direct route to the brain [6, 7]. For these reasons, this method has become popular for pre-workout stimulant purposes. Many people report increased workout intensity from intranasal prohormones. DHT precursors are best suited to this purpose, although some other prohormones may make effective pre-workout stimulants as well.

Conclusion

HPBCD complexes can allow for a number of novel effective prohormone delivery methods. Each one has unique advantages and disadvantages.

Vortura,

My reasoning behind not injecting at this point is one it is my first cycle and it is test no ester so if i was to inject i would be pinning alot and i work 12hr shifts so thats a big risk for me there. also if this cycle does not accomplish what i expect i have enough to run 700mg/week for three more cycles i could always figure a way to pin on those cycles. i would just rather not inject. i am not a wuss and not afraid of pain its the thought of me sticking myself that i do not like lol.

BigSwatta,

the reasoning behind running the hcg through cycle is that it will keep most of testicular atrophy from happening, meaning if you do not have to wait for them to perk back up the quicker your pct will kick the testosterone making process back on.

But you shouldn’t run hcg all the way up to pct… hcg is also suppresses the HPTA so I would stop using hcg 2 weeks before PCT…

Also, the hpbcd is interesting. That is something I have not read a lot about. I’m reading some about it now, and it seems pretty interesting. Based on the abstract from this article, it looks like since E2 levels aren’t elevated for a sustained time that estrogen sides may be less…And since it is quickly absorbed I can see this being good for pre-training/competition… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1902483

I might have to try this myself, not as a full cycle of course, but more as an addition to a cycle.

it definately got my attention while reading up on it but now i am thinking of going test prop for first cycle hpbcd can get quite expensive if you need a lot of it. the way you mentioned using it seems more logical since you would not need as much for what your going to use it for.

I guess ill just have to get over the fact that i dislike the idea of pinning myself and do the prop way instead eod would not be that bad.

Thanks for the info on not running the hcg up to PCT.
I think i may just use the hcg from weeks 5-10 during cycle does this seem good or should i use from week 1-10?

Thanks for the advice.

I would go ED on prop, but EOD won’t be bad. 100mg EOD or 50mg ED will be a good first cycle.

I can’t find anywhere that sells the hpbcd so I have no clue what the prices would be on that, but if I find a place I may try it.

If you don’t mind, check your PMs

If you gonna pin HCG you might as well pin test its not that bad suck it up buttercup

There is a sublingual hcg method as well lens. And yes i am just going to pin up when i have everything at hand and in order.

BigSkwatta, hpbcd is legal as far as i know, i found it on a site (trying to remember which one it was at work so i have no access to my home comp) it was like 3.30/gm for hospital grade and 1.50ish for technical grade. once i remember which site it is i will let you know. tried to pm back but not enough posts yet lol.

Just remembered check CTD Holdings, inc Trappsol Cyclodextrins, on left side scroll down to and pick Beta Cyclodextrins. its about half way down the Beta Cyclo list its the HydroxyPropyl BCD.

Thanks I will check into the legality/that site…

It would be a nice way to add a pre-workout boost maybe. 5x a day dosing would be a little inconvenient though.

Yea, after thinking about it i agree 5x dosing/daily even though it would be sublingual would be a hassle especially for 12wks straight.

If you do give it a go as a pre-boost let me know how it goes.