T Nation

How's The Bible Right - Being a Good Person?

Ok, I have read a few of the topics here on religion. I see logic in both points of view SOMETIMES. But, how does one explain how the way the Bible and holy books describe how we should live and be better people by following those lesson’s, and be so right?

I guess what I’m trying to say is how it describes for instance, watching who you associate with because it will make you like them. That holds true today, yesterday, and forever. Where could such a wisdom come from, so long ago?

[quote]mbdix wrote:

I guess what I’m trying to say is how it describes for instance, watching who you associate with because it will make you like them. That holds true today, yesterday, and forever. Where could such a wisdom come from, so long ago? [/quote]

Seems like common sense to me. If someone could dream up such stories, it doesn’t seem to be a far stretch that they were smart enough to make such a statement as above.

[quote]mbdix wrote:
Ok, I have read a few of the topics here on religion. I see logic in both points of view SOMETIMES. But, how does one explain how the way the Bible and holy books describe how we should live and be better people by following those lesson’s, and be so right?

I guess what I’m trying to say is how it describes for instance, watching who you associate with because it will make you like them. That holds true today, yesterday, and forever. Where could such a wisdom come from, so long ago? [/quote]

Really?

Do you think that people were totally unenlightened barbarians back then?

Ever heard of Aristotle ? Seneca ?

In terms of practical wisdom or insights the Bible contains very little that was new for it’s time.

[quote]mbdix wrote:
Ok, I have read a few of the topics here on religion. I see logic in both points of view SOMETIMES. But, how does one explain how the way the Bible and holy books describe how we should live and be better people by following those lesson’s, and be so right?

I guess what I’m trying to say is how it describes for instance, watching who you associate with because it will make you like them. That holds true today, yesterday, and forever. Where could such a wisdom come from, so long ago? [/quote]

(For the fifth time on PWI)

People are just people. We are not all a bunch of special snowflakes who work in unique and mystical ways. People today, when they come out of the womb aren’t that terribly different than people from 2000, 3000, 4000 years ago. Sure we end up believing different things and learning different things, but we are truly the same slate (for the most part). Of course general social psychology lessons will apply millennia later. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you: monkeys pick bugs off each others backs for goodness sake and they didn’t need a book to realize that that benefits them both.

I am a Christian, but to use the fact that such basic ideas of human interactions are in holy texts as evidence for divine origin is flimsy at best. This also discounts the incredibly large volume of ridiculousness in some of these texts.

[quote]CornSprint wrote:<<< I am a Christian, >>>[/quote]Not another one.

Whaddya mean, “not another one”?

[quote]Karado wrote:
Whaddya mean, “not another one”?[/quote]

You see, Tirib is a real Christian, and all of these other pretenders who don’t necessarily believe that Noah actually funneled two polar bears onto his boat are just heretics masquerading as believers.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Whaddya mean, “not another one”?[/quote]

You see, Tirib is a real Christian, and all of these other pretenders who don’t necessarily believe that Noah actually funneled two polar bears onto his boat are just heretics masquerading as believers.[/quote]

+1 internets

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Whaddya mean, “not another one”?[/quote]

You see, Tirib is a real Christian, and all of these other pretenders who don’t necessarily believe that Noah actually funneled two polar bears onto his boat are just heretics masquerading as believers.[/quote]

+1 internets[/quote]

Even though you’re a Godless heretic, high five!

I would expect a “true Christian” to be way more hesitant than to mock like that

…just my expectation - guess I wouldn’t really know for sure. Is that what the Bible teaches?

Internecine debates always are much better than with those outside the faith.

X says I am a Christian.
Y says you are no true scotsman.
Z says bugger off you are no scotsman either.
And its on.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Whaddya mean, “not another one”?[/quote]

You see, Tirib is a real Christian, and all of these other pretenders who don’t necessarily believe that Noah actually funneled two polar bears onto his boat are just heretics masquerading as believers.[/quote]
You win.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Whaddya mean, “not another one”?[/quote]

You see, Tirib is a real Christian, and all of these other pretenders who don’t necessarily believe that Noah actually funneled two polar bears onto his boat are just heretics masquerading as believers.[/quote]

+1 internets[/quote]

Even though you’re a Godless heretic, high five![/quote]You two should get along just fine. lol. You’re well on your way already.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:

I guess what I’m trying to say is how it describes for instance, watching who you associate with because it will make you like them. That holds true today, yesterday, and forever. Where could such a wisdom come from, so long ago? [/quote]

Seems like common sense to me. If someone could dream up such stories, it doesn’t seem to be a far stretch that they were smart enough to make such a statement as above.[/quote]

What makes common sense, common?
If it’s so common, why do people consistently fuck it up?

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
Ok, I have read a few of the topics here on religion. I see logic in both points of view SOMETIMES. But, how does one explain how the way the Bible and holy books describe how we should live and be better people by following those lesson’s, and be so right?

I guess what I’m trying to say is how it describes for instance, watching who you associate with because it will make you like them. That holds true today, yesterday, and forever. Where could such a wisdom come from, so long ago? [/quote]

(For the fifth time on PWI)

People are just people. We are not all a bunch of special snowflakes who work in unique and mystical ways. People today, when they come out of the womb aren’t that terribly different than people from 2000, 3000, 4000 years ago. Sure we end up believing different things and learning different things, but we are truly the same slate (for the most part). Of course general social psychology lessons will apply millennia later. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you: monkeys pick bugs off each others backs for goodness sake and they didn’t need a book to realize that that benefits them both.

I am a Christian, but to use the fact that such basic ideas of human interactions are in holy texts as evidence for divine origin is flimsy at best. This also discounts the incredibly large volume of ridiculousness in some of these texts.[/quote]

The human interactions are not the basis for divine origin, it’s just part of the package.

“This also discounts the incredibly large volume of ridiculousness in some of these texts.” <- that makes no sense, can you explain that?
Based on what you said, you claim to be a Christian who does not believe in the Bible? It begs the question, have you read it, or just read things others have said about it?

Pat 1: People as a whole are far from perfect-I would propose that the vast majority of us understand the basis of many teachings that would make our lives more pleasant and amicable (golden rule in particular) but fail to apply it when tempers rise. It is definitely easier to speak on theory than to practice it.

Pat 2: The first sentence is fair-I was just referring to what was proposed in this thread as one reason.

In terms of the “ridiculousness” I reference, I’m speaking mainly on some of the (in my mind) overly restrictive/antiquated tenants set forth in the Old Testament (dietary for instance). Incredibly large was hyperbole-it is indeed vastly outweighed by either neutral or positive messages. I got caught up in my end of the discussion.

In regards to my religious beliefs-I have read the Bible in its entirety once and specific sections more often. From my reading/readings I have found more value personally in approaching it (Old Testament in particular) in such a way that I take the lessons but not the literal words themselves to heart. For me the over-arching messages remain the same but the minutia I run into day to day falls into the realm of the mind and teachings God has given us.

[quote]CornSprint wrote:
Pat 1: People as a whole are far from perfect-I would propose that the vast majority of us understand the basis of many teachings that would make our lives more pleasant and amicable (golden rule in particular) but fail to apply it when tempers rise. It is definitely easier to speak on theory than to practice it.

Pat 2: The first sentence is fair-I was just referring to what was proposed in this thread as one reason.

In terms of the “ridiculousness” I reference, I’m speaking mainly on some of the (in my mind) overly restrictive/antiquated tenants set forth in the Old Testament (dietary for instance). Incredibly large was hyperbole-it is indeed vastly outweighed by either neutral or positive messages. I got caught up in my end of the discussion.

In regards to my religious beliefs-I have read the Bible in its entirety once and specific sections more often. From my reading/readings I have found more value personally in approaching it (Old Testament in particular) in such a way that I take the lessons but not the literal words themselves to heart. For me the over-arching messages remain the same but the minutia I run into day to day falls into the realm of the mind and teachings God has given us.[/quote]

I never ever post in this section and don’t know what kind of political or worldly spin I can put on my beliefs. I’m sure that I will be ignored or ripped to shreds but so be it.

We are all far from perfect in our behavior. The difference between Christians and people that aren’t is forgiveness. Yes, some do struggle with maintaining their temper. We all are war with flesh but if you can learn to control your tongue, you can control your body. Also, being Christian is not a feel-good club. We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.

The Old Testament is not null and void; you should be familiar with it as its teachings should still be known. Having said that, we are living during the time when New Testament rules apply - walk in love.

The Bible is living Word and should constantly be read. I would always pray before I read that God would reveal His glory to me and teach me through his Word. He never failed me. As you mature in spirit, you will understand more. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you reject the guide that He has given to you. Good deeds are not what gain you entry to heaven.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:
Pat 1: People as a whole are far from perfect-I would propose that the vast majority of us understand the basis of many teachings that would make our lives more pleasant and amicable (golden rule in particular) but fail to apply it when tempers rise. It is definitely easier to speak on theory than to practice it.

Pat 2: The first sentence is fair-I was just referring to what was proposed in this thread as one reason.

In terms of the “ridiculousness” I reference, I’m speaking mainly on some of the (in my mind) overly restrictive/antiquated tenants set forth in the Old Testament (dietary for instance). Incredibly large was hyperbole-it is indeed vastly outweighed by either neutral or positive messages. I got caught up in my end of the discussion.

In regards to my religious beliefs-I have read the Bible in its entirety once and specific sections more often. From my reading/readings I have found more value personally in approaching it (Old Testament in particular) in such a way that I take the lessons but not the literal words themselves to heart. For me the over-arching messages remain the same but the minutia I run into day to day falls into the realm of the mind and teachings God has given us.[/quote]

I never ever post in this section and don’t know what kind of political or worldly spin I can put on my beliefs. I’m sure that I will be ignored or ripped to shreds but so be it.

We are all far from perfect in our behavior. The difference between Christians and people that aren’t is forgiveness. Yes, some do struggle with maintaining their temper. We all are war with flesh but if you can learn to control your tongue, you can control your body. Also, being Christian is not a feel-good club. We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.

The Old Testament is not null and void; you should be familiar with it as its teachings should still be known. Having said that, we are living during the time when New Testament rules apply - walk in love.

The Bible is living Word and should constantly be read. I would always pray before I read that God would reveal His glory to me and teach me through his Word. He never failed me. As you mature in spirit, you will understand more. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you reject the guide that He has given to you. Good deeds are not what gain you entry to heaven. [/quote]
You would take flak from people that are more fundamentalist from your positions. Likely some from nonbelievers but most of them are going to just state that they think your premises are untrue.

Do you really think Christians are more forgiving than others? My personal experience has been that its the same or in the other direction.
As well if you think Christians are the persecuted minority in Murrica you are deluded.

For a delve into evolutionary biology it is possible(I’d say likely but I’m not going to quibble) that things like empathy were not in existence or as developed 2k years ago as they are now. Simply from reading the documents of the time as historical records. So very easily behaviors considered abhorrent today by and large would be not abnormal 2k years ago.

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:
Pat 1: People as a whole are far from perfect-I would propose that the vast majority of us understand the basis of many teachings that would make our lives more pleasant and amicable (golden rule in particular) but fail to apply it when tempers rise. It is definitely easier to speak on theory than to practice it.

Pat 2: The first sentence is fair-I was just referring to what was proposed in this thread as one reason.

In terms of the “ridiculousness” I reference, I’m speaking mainly on some of the (in my mind) overly restrictive/antiquated tenants set forth in the Old Testament (dietary for instance). Incredibly large was hyperbole-it is indeed vastly outweighed by either neutral or positive messages. I got caught up in my end of the discussion.

In regards to my religious beliefs-I have read the Bible in its entirety once and specific sections more often. From my reading/readings I have found more value personally in approaching it (Old Testament in particular) in such a way that I take the lessons but not the literal words themselves to heart. For me the over-arching messages remain the same but the minutia I run into day to day falls into the realm of the mind and teachings God has given us.[/quote]

I never ever post in this section and don’t know what kind of political or worldly spin I can put on my beliefs. I’m sure that I will be ignored or ripped to shreds but so be it.

We are all far from perfect in our behavior. The difference between Christians and people that aren’t is forgiveness. Yes, some do struggle with maintaining their temper. We all are war with flesh but if you can learn to control your tongue, you can control your body. Also, being Christian is not a feel-good club. We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.

The Old Testament is not null and void; you should be familiar with it as its teachings should still be known. Having said that, we are living during the time when New Testament rules apply - walk in love.

The Bible is living Word and should constantly be read. I would always pray before I read that God would reveal His glory to me and teach me through his Word. He never failed me. As you mature in spirit, you will understand more. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you reject the guide that He has given to you. Good deeds are not what gain you entry to heaven. [/quote]

I respect your beliefs, but I’ll second the notion that Christians are far from persecuted in this country.

Do people disagree with you, some of them rudely? Of course. That can be said of anyone with any belief. But persecution–that word carries a bit of gravity in my mind–of Christians in the US? I don’t see it, at all.

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:
Pat 1: People as a whole are far from perfect-I would propose that the vast majority of us understand the basis of many teachings that would make our lives more pleasant and amicable (golden rule in particular) but fail to apply it when tempers rise. It is definitely easier to speak on theory than to practice it.

Pat 2: The first sentence is fair-I was just referring to what was proposed in this thread as one reason.

In terms of the “ridiculousness” I reference, I’m speaking mainly on some of the (in my mind) overly restrictive/antiquated tenants set forth in the Old Testament (dietary for instance). Incredibly large was hyperbole-it is indeed vastly outweighed by either neutral or positive messages. I got caught up in my end of the discussion.

In regards to my religious beliefs-I have read the Bible in its entirety once and specific sections more often. From my reading/readings I have found more value personally in approaching it (Old Testament in particular) in such a way that I take the lessons but not the literal words themselves to heart. For me the over-arching messages remain the same but the minutia I run into day to day falls into the realm of the mind and teachings God has given us.[/quote]

I never ever post in this section and don’t know what kind of political or worldly spin I can put on my beliefs. I’m sure that I will be ignored or ripped to shreds but so be it.

We are all far from perfect in our behavior. The difference between Christians and people that aren’t is forgiveness. Yes, some do struggle with maintaining their temper. We all are war with flesh but if you can learn to control your tongue, you can control your body. Also, being Christian is not a feel-good club. We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.

The Old Testament is not null and void; you should be familiar with it as its teachings should still be known. Having said that, we are living during the time when New Testament rules apply - walk in love.

The Bible is living Word and should constantly be read. I would always pray before I read that God would reveal His glory to me and teach me through his Word. He never failed me. As you mature in spirit, you will understand more. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you reject the guide that He has given to you. Good deeds are not what gain you entry to heaven. [/quote]
You would take flak from people that are more fundamentalist from your positions. Likely some from nonbelievers but most of them are going to just state that they think your premises are untrue.

Do you really think Christians are more forgiving than others? My personal experience has been that its the same or in the other direction.
As well if you think Christians are the persecuted minority in Murrica you are deluded.

For a delve into evolutionary biology it is possible(I’d say likely but I’m not going to quibble) that things like empathy were not in existence or as developed 2k years ago as they are now. Simply from reading the documents of the time as historical records. So very easily behaviors considered abhorrent today by and large would be not abnormal 2k years ago.

[/quote]

By forgiveness, I meant that Christians have been forgiven by God if they have asked him for forgiveness. People, including Christians, can be unforgiving. That prevents them from maturing spiritually however and prevents them from having a greater relationship with Christ.

Christians are persecuted for their beliefs in every country. There are other groups that are persecuted but Christians are included.

By abhorrent behavior, do you mean the difference between the “more violent” Old Testament as opposed to the New?