'How to Train' Questions

Good suggestions. I don’t think that you an get a commercial HR model (unless it’s a hand-held) without some sort of chest strap. I did some testing with the military years ago and they glued an ECG unit to me which gave great freedom. I’m likely going to get lung cancer or something in the future now. Anyway, they do exist if you can find them.

Consequently the hand-held models are cheap, but suck; delayed reading, inaccurate etc. Stick with Polar or Timex.

Thanks alot for the responses Imoko and Xen, this forum definitely has the most helpful members of the whole site. I’m looking into an heart rate monitor right now.

welcome dude…

great article for anyone wondering how to structure your lifting:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/concurrent_strategies3.htm

That really was a great article, thanks. The first two of the series were also interesting.

Right now I’m using basic guidelines and not following a precise routine as far as exercice selection, should I use one? So that I can track improvement?

I was thinking of picking up a routine, performing 5x5 on the first week with a weight I can handle for 6-7 reps, then on week 2 add 5 pounds to everything but perform 5x3 instead.

On week 3 I’d keep that same weight, but go back to 5x5. And so on.

How does that sound? Is it achievable or am I gonna plateau after 2 or 3 cycles?

As far as exercise selection I like selecting things that I know when I’m getting strong on them I’m getting strong elsewhere.

For example, any improvements I make in my OH press directly correlates to my bench press.

and whatever I can snatch pull for a double, I can power clean for a single.

That said, it will be different for EVERYONE. It is very much a journey of self discovery for you to find what works.

But so far, pick shit you like, or things you KNOW that you need to work on. And have 2-3 to rotate… hit that shit hard till you don’t make any improvements on it then change it to another exercise and repeat. Whenever you get back around to the old exercise you have in your workout log what your previous numbers were.

If you were using big exercises that correlate it should just be a matter of time before you beat your old #'s.

For instance box squat, good mornings, sumo deadlifts are different but have extreme transfer so maybe it was 3 weeks since you’ve pulled but your box squat after a period of readjustment should allow you to pull more than you did in your previous microcycle.

You can do the 5x5 a lot of ways… I believe there was an article around here about it but i mean you can do it escalating like: 1st set was easy, 2nd harder, etc 5th set of 5reps is the toughest.

Or you can pick 1 weight and do 5x5, but if you fail (lets say you do 5-5-4-3) then you keep at that weight till you get all 25 total reps and then you make the weight heavier.

your idea works, use a weight that you can do 5x5 for, then go heavier and do 5x3, then next time use 5x5 for the weight you used 5x3 for… etc etc… you may plateau but that just means rotate exercises (one’s with crossover) and continue. When you plateau on that exercise go back to the previous one and continue.

I tend to do this with Bent Rows and Chest supported rows… when I need a break i’ll do 1 arm supported rows for high reps (kroc rows).

There’s a shit load of ways to do it.

All that matters though is that the next time you’re in the gym you’re either using more weight or you’re doing more reps.**

Tracking improvement is huge huge huge. The thing is you don’t even have to get that meticulous… just beat what you did in the past… progress forward, develop a new stronger you… the logbook is just a record of that progress. Then you can look back in a year and say “The 2008 Kataklysm was weak compared to the 2009 edition”.

**obviously this isn’t necessarily true for speed work or power endurance or jump training, etc, but eventually it would still ring true in that as your maximal strength improves you should be able to handle heavier weights for your speed work. Which is WHY absolute strength is so important to train… it truly (imo) has positive effects on all other forms of strength.

btw, feel free to pm me so we don’t thread jack (no homo) any further

I’m pretty new to BJJ and trying to answer the ‘How to Train’ question myself. As a part of this, I’ve been reading old threads and random articles. I thought I’d compile useful information for everyone since I’m doing it anyway.

I’m just going to reiterate what other’s have posted. I don’t really have the base knowledge to have many of my own opinions on the topic yet, so I’ll quote my sources.

Alwyn Cosgrove (in other words, he’s the I below):

Fighters should be training with their own bodyweight before adding external resistance. I think about 25 lunges in each plane, 25-30 push ups and dips and 10-15 wide grip pull ups are a good base before you even consider adding external load. If you can’t do a full pistol squat you have no business using loads.

You have to identify your limiting factors. Take BJ Penn for example. His limiting factor was NEVER skill. He gassed. A lot. Once he worked on that limiting factor he beat Jens Pulver in a very one-sided contest.

For most fighters, they need to train unilaterally. You kick unilaterally - you stand in a unilateral stance - you sprawl from a unilateral stance. Training your legs in a bilateral position is useful but only as an adjunct to unilateral work.

If I quote you and you’d rather I didn’t, let me know I’ll edit it out.

Flexibility/ Stretching

JonnyTMT and Xen really endorse Tom Kurz -
http://stadion.com/column.html

danew:
I’ve had success with doing stretches from Mike Robertson’s “Magnificient Mobility” DVD. On issue to think about…in my experience it often is not just an issue of muscle flexibility that keeps people from performing certain movements (let’s use headkick as example).

Often, it is a lack of strength in the hip and ab muscles so the person can’t easily pick up their leg and throw the kick. Furthermore, a lack of JOINT range of motion, rather than muscle flexibility, can cause problems. Therefore, I generally do movements like “Walking Spiderman”, deep lunges with a twist, knee hugs, butt kickers, standing leg cradles, etc to “warm-up” before I train. Then I do a static stretches after I get done training. I especially focus on stretching hip flexors (because they are tight on damn near everyone) and other muscles of the hips because you have to have good, strong, loose hips no matter what martial art you practice. Good luck!

great idea btw, and great quote from danew

CaliforniaLaw has said his training philosophy is ‘Today I will die during training.’

I’m going to post whatever vomit inducing workouts I find since we all seem to be a bit masochistic. Also I find that occasionally I need a workout that humbles me. (I’ll add to this as I find them.)

Xen:
10x10 back squats and 1 arm snatches

(For hypertrophy I think i’d change it to 10x5 now, and use front squats instead so I could go heavier)

squats, use at least 1x your bodyweight.
1 arm snatches, use at least 1/3 x your bodyweight

10 squats, a2g
10 1 arm snatches, left
10 1 arm snatches, right
30s-1 min rest

repeat10x

Recovery

downwardog:

Do 10-50 reps, depending on the level of discomfort you start with, more reps for the stiff areas.

10 reps TOTAL, meaning 5 reps each direction and so on up to 50 reps TOTAL.

These aren’t magic numbers, just guidelines. Certainly don’t go to fatigue, it’s supposed to be a RECHARGE! Pre workout or active recovery.

  • walking
  • +1 anabolic napping, especially in a low-pressure tanning bed
  • cold water bucket treatments, or contrast showers
  • SLEEP!
  • meditation CDs played through headphones

Programs:

Sherdog’s FAQ Recommends:

There are many routines that can help you develop strength, here are a few of the ones that are commonly used by our members:

Three day Pull/Press/Squat split:

Day one: Deadlifts
Deadlifts 5X5
One or two deadlift assistance exercises
Upper body pull exercise (eg. BORs or pullups)

Day Two: Bench
Bench Press 5X5
One or two bench press assistance lifts

Day Three: Squats
Squats 5X5
Front Squats 3-4X6
Whatever ham/lowback/quad assistance you’d like, but keep it limited

Two day split:
Day one: Deadlift & Overhead press & Weighted pullup/chinup
Day two: Squat & Benchpress & Bent over row

West side for skinny bastards
5x5 routine
Twenty rep squats

This is an interesting thread 5 Exercises That a Fighter Needs http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/5_excercises_that_a_fighter_needs_to_do

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:

Yes you should lift weights but TMT, TBS, TNT, WIFI, TMNT, DBZ or whatever Waterbury program you’re doing probably isn’t going to be what you need for MMA. (not picking on Waterbury he just usually has all the acronyms).

[/quote]

MMA is a power sport. A huge part of the power equation is maximal strength. Boosting maximal strength will also enhance endurance- and explosive-strength. When a fighter is strong, and can maintain that strength at the highest level possible throughout the fight, he’ll offset the fatigue that often leads to problems.

You build maximal strength by lifting heavy and by lifting moderate loads fast. Then you develop your ability to sustain that strength through power-endurance based training. Most fighters start with the latter before training the former. But it doesn’t matter which he develops first: either way, a fighter needs both.

Most MMA guys get enough sport specific endurance training through all their fight training.

What’s often neglected in a fighter’s arsenal is maximal strength work. I’ve never consulted with one competitive MMA fighter who couldn’t benefit from more maximal strength. Indeed, it’s where they often fall short.

A program like the Waterbury Method will build total body maximal strength. (However, for a pro MMA fighter I would decrease the frequency of the WM to 2x/week.)

Pavel and I were recently talking about a very successful strength coach who trains some of the top MMA fighters. Most often, this coach trains his MMA fighters with a protocol similar to this:

Chin-up
Back squat
Dip

Why such an abbreviated program? Because the coach understands that a fighter’s practice will develop most of the other fitness qualities he needs - except for total body maximal strength.

When a fighter needs more maximal strength (and most do) you don’t need a complicated program to build it.

So to say that certain programs of mine won’t help a MMA fighter doesn’t hold any water.

A strong, solid foundation of maximal strength is necessary to support the sport-specific endurance and mobility that a fighter needs.

Mr. Waterbury,
If I could pick your brain for a moment. I was wondering if you could share your opinion on the circuit style training you see fighters performing on the All Access shows, crossfit, intocombat.com, etc. Is that type of training needed or should the athlete focus their energy on strength and power through more traditional methods such as westside or your own? Thanks.

Hi Mr Wat,
what are the better type of BlocK for Hypertrophy?Research has shown that the detrimental effects of overreaching in training do not begin until the fourth to sixth week . The proposal is simple: increase your total loading volume for three or four weeks, then take a single week of lowered volume to deload

[quote]pch2 wrote:
Recovery

[/quote]

hey, i had a question about the Daily Dozen…do you know how many reps to do? just one, or until fatigue?? i didn’t see that info anywhere on the site…

I’m going to try and address all your points and present a few of my own, forgive me if I forget something or wander off on a tangent… I do that a lot.

As I stated previously I wasn’t picking on any of your programs. I was making the point that often people come on the forum and try to take programs obviously meant for bodybuilding and apply them to MMA. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn’t, and damn near 99% of the time there’s a more efficient way to do it.

Even you noted that the Waterbury method you would only have an MMA fighter utilize twice a week. You can’t just take the programs, print them, and take them to the gym they need to be tweaked. Especially in MMA, the athletes tend to have such a variety of needs that individualization of programs is more important that in most other sports I feel.

While I agree that maximal strength can make the most difference to most overall athletic/strength attributes, I would respectfully assert that it is not the most important. I would also respectfully say that you’re somewhat wrong, MMA is a power ENDURANCE sport. But more on that later… Back to maximal strength.

While most MMA fighters could utilize some form of maximal strength work. And it is a huge part of the athletic formula (and will improve other aspects of sport as you mentioned), I believe that there are a LOT of other things that you can do (and SHOULD be done) prior to even introducing the concept of maximal work.

Most fighters are fighting and training injured in some form or the other and could benefit from improving: Flexibility, Range of motion, rehabilitation, gluteal amnesia, and a myraid of other concerns before we even touch a 45 plate.

Andy Sower for example is a bad ass motherfucker when it comes to K-1 Kickboxing but I would (initially)say that he is a BAMF inspite of his strength training not because of it… It includes no maximal work! But reality of it is that he doesn’t need it. He’s better served working on what he needs. Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke. Work on muscle imbalancements or what-the-fuck-ever they do (hey it works…)

I wouldn’t tell Rampage Jackson that he needs to get his weighted dip numbers up… and He doesn’t even lift “weights”…much less do maximal strength training. http://www.king-mag.com/online/?p=6431

Joe Lauzon (this was a while ago now) openly admitted to not being able to bench even 135lbs ONCE… yet he knocked out Jens Pulver.

As much as I am a proponent of maximal strength, and as much as I am a disciple of guys like Louis Simmons and Dave Tate. In the fight game maximal strength IS hugely important, EVENTUALLY… but immediately? it is an overrated concern.

You can probably count on one hand how many fights were ended with the first punch. You NEED to be able to throw 100’s of punches with equal level of refined technique, finesse, and power. It’s rarely the first hit that knocks someone out, knockouts are usually a result of someone being dazed a few times and then the accumulation of disrupted brain signals causes their brain to ‘reboot’ turn off the entire system “knock them out” and then we get the spectacular highlight reel.

Mind you I AM aware, that improving maximal strength will improve one’s ability to handle more work. meaning (if i’m not being clear) that if you can bench 315 now, you can probably bench 225 a good few times, but if you can bench 405 then 225 is warmup weight and extremely easy. So you can bench 225 MORE if you raise your maximal strength #'s.

But this example is unfair to MMA and there is nothing comparable in technique to a bench press or maximal lift PERIOD in combat sports. The closest that you can get MAYBE is the full olympic snatch and even then fighting is like doing repeated Oly snatches for 2-5min straight. Even a world record holder isn’t going to be doing that with incredible amount of weight.

It’s well known that at a certain point training the olympic lifts that refinement of TECHNIQUE is the only way to transfer raw strength earned from squats and pulls to the lifts themselves.

Likewise in MMA!

A PROPER muay thai roundhouse to the ribs is more akin to ballet than it is any weight lifting movement. The kinetic linking involved in a PROPER right cross in my opinion makes the clean and jerk look like a barbell curl. Thats not even including the other elusive aspects such as timing, rhythm, accuracy, and footwork.

99% of fighters (especially anyone not in the upper echelons of the fight game) would do better to REFINE their technique before they worry about their maximal strength.

That’s the reason 100lb Thaiboxers who never touched a weight in their life can generate so much power with their kick that they’d break your femur if you let them kick you in the leg. Their technique is flawless. Now put ONE OF THEM on a proper strength training program and see what happens. Scary. But to become so strong that you can just throw technique to the wind? We only see THAT with heavyweight monsters like brock lesnar and bob sapp (the former of which has pretty solid technique and is just improving). In a game with weight classes, it’s been proven… the dude with good technique (Nick diaz for example) more often than not will dominate the stronger guy (Robbie lawler).

Please understand (everyone) what I am NOT saying is that the aspect of maximal strength does not need to be improved by combat athletes.

What I AM saying is that is pretty midrange to low on the totem pole or priorities. If you are forced with the option of practicing your guard passes or working on 1 arm chins, you should go with the former.

That said, I believe that marked improvements can be made in all these athletic aspects concurrently. I don’t have anyone I work with skimp on maximal strength work (after they work up to it).

But I also believe Coach Waterbury that for the large part most of your programs are not the best fit for a combat athlete to make strength gains on. You had to tweak your own example… I think there are more efficient ways. That said, I’m sure that for a few people out there right out of the box boom one of the acronyms is perfect for them… but I would not go “uhhh yea you quattro dynamo for the next 4 weeks”.
I am NOT knocking any of your programs. They can work, they do work, and are great programs. But for MMA they are not the most efficient things that someone can be doing 99% of the time.

AGAIN… I wasn’t attacking anything you created. Rather I was commenting on the mentality that you can grab a cookie cutter routine (Not intended for athletic development) and conclude that “oh this program is for building muscles… GSP has muscles… let me do this program and train MMA” and expect to magically become GSP version 2.0. I’d say the same over Christian Thib’s OVT or one of Joel Marion’s programs (now THOSE are abbreviated)…

MMA (and most other combat sports in general) are totally unique sports in that, IMO, the widest realm of physical attributes are needed.

In most other sports, you can narrow the physical attributes needed to one or two main things. However, in MMA, you need virtually all attributes: maximal strength/power, strength/power-endurance, cardiovascular endurance, muscular endurance, work capacity, etc.

That said, MMA is also one of the most diverse sports (save for maybe some of your multi-event track competitions a la decathalon or the like) in that you have to know so much. It’s really like trying to prepare for 3-5 sports all at the same time between wrestling, submissions, boxing, kickboxing/MT, etc. You may not have to master all of these, but you have to know not only your game (be you a striker, grappler, etc.), but know a good amount of (at least) defense all-around.

That said, the amount of time needed for skills training is probably as high or higher (percentage wise) of any other sport.

In other words, if you can spend 75% of your time skills training in any other sport, 25% of your time S&C training (these aren’t meant to be any sort of accurate percentages, just pulling numbers for discussion’s sake), then with MMA, you’d probably be closer to a 85-90% skills to 10-15% S&C ratio.

So what does this mean? This means that you have to get the most “bang for your buck” when you’re doing your S&C work. Really, this is one of the things that drew me to S&C work for MMA years ago, as at the time, MMA was still a small sport, and many of its participants were still working full-time jobs just to make ends meet. This reduced training time even FURTHER, but that is another subject.

If a fighter has to get the most “bang for the buck” with his S&C training, this means not just putting together abbreviated routines. This means putting together routines that will put the fighter in the best possible position to win.

Now, this can vary from fighter to fighter. If a fighter is very weak, then ME work is more needed. If a fighter needs better cardio, then this is where the training should be focused. Same goes for strength/power-endurance (which, as Xen said, is damn near KING when it comes to MMA), muscular endurance, and the like.

And for most fighters out there, they are going to be better served with endurance-based training for a variety of reasons.

First of all, strength can take a good amount of time to develop - or at least longer than commensurate increases in a given form of endurance. One of the things that separates out MMA, boxing, etc. from all other sports (even wrestling) is that there are no defined “seasons”. A fighter can literally fight at any given point during the year.

It is really only the upper echelon of fighter (MMA or boxing) that makes enough to train full-time. Those that train full-time can plan out their training camps (and in turn S&C training) far ahead enough that if some ME work is needed, it can be done with enough time to make sure the requisite levels of strength/power are reached. (I’d say that much of the ME work that’s done during camp is more for making sure that strength is kept rather than built, but that’s another topic as well.)

Otherwise, it’s not uncommon for a fighter to take a fight on just days/weeks notice. In order to do this, a fighter has to always keep in good shape. True ME work will take enough out of a fighter, that he won’t be able to keep endurance levels (of all varieties) where they need to be.

Chad, you mentioned (and Xen commented on this) that increasing maximal strength will carry over and result in a raise in work capacity, strength-endurance, etc. And this is true.

However, the opposite is also true. Focus on intense work capacity, strength/power-endurance, or the like and see what happens. Take 85% of your 1RM is various lifts, and build to 30-40 reps inside of 5 mins on a given exercise (you could even use your famed 10x3) and see what happens to your ME numbers.

This is much better suited to fighters.

Now, I’m not saying that ME work doesn’t have a place in a program, b/c it does. It just shouldn’t be the focus by any means.

One other thing, Chad, that you said once in relation to ME work…

You said once in an article (IIRC - please correct me if I’m wrong) that a fighter should have a bench of 1.5xBW, SQ of 2xBW, and DL 2.5xBW.

With all due respect, but these numbers are way out of line and totally off-base.

For every fighter that could make these numbers, I’ll show you two (or more) that couldn’t. Does this mean that they should build up their ME strength? Not necessarily. I’d venture to bet that most of your LHW (205) fighters aren’t going to DL 500+.

Will getting their DL up that high make them better fighters? In most instances, no. And really, that is what we should be looking at - not how much weight or how many reps a fighter can put up in the gym, but what’s making them better in the cage/ring.

Along those lines - I see all these questions about “sport specific” training, and I think it’s bullshit. I can see a fighter training to be able to exert himself at very intense levels for 5 mins rounds and such, or trying to find exercises that might be more useful while still working targeted muscles (e.g. - a one-handed leverage bar pushpress instead of a standard bench press), but everybody has gone overboard on this whole “sport specific” bandwagon.

S&C work is, by its nature, GPP - meaning General. Want to make it specific? Then spend time training your sport (in this case, grappling, sparring, etc.)

Joe DeFranco once answered a question on this, and the basic gist of it was to get stronger in the weight room, and use that strength to get faster and become a better player while on the field. Don’t try to turn the gym into the mat or the mat into the gym.

One last thing - I think we make these fucking things too damn complicated. Want to become a better fighter? Then get better at striking, submissions, takedowns, sprawls, etc.

When it comes to S&C work, I think many - if not most - of us would do better to err on the side of more basic than more advanced. As much as I think we’d like to bullshit ourselves, very few (or less) of us are elite athletes. We’re not going to the Olympics any time soon, and we’re not some sort of adonis-like gods. We’d do just as well to create a very basic, yet well-thought out program, and work at that, then over-scruitinizing every last detail of our training.

In fact, I think most fighters could take CT’s Metabolic Pairings article from last week, and use similar routines to some great fucking success if they put in the work a couple times/week there, and focused the rest of their time and abilities on becoming as technically proficient as possible.

Xen do you actually train fighters or fight yourself whats your record can is see proof. I think you owe to this forum before you start giving out advice

He can speak for himself; but he does both.

I notice you did not ask that question of anyone else on this thread. Why is that?

Why haven’t you asked anyone else to “see proof” that they train fighters?