T Nation

How to Train on Juice with Vid Clip.


#1

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1203390/naturally_massive_free_tip_4_steroids_vs_natural_training/
I watched this clip and it suggests that people on juice should be doing light high rep training instead of heavy low rep training

anyone have any opinions on it?

is it complete crap?


#2

the whole point to AAS is to help recovery and also to prevent injury from training,correct?

so why if you have improved recovery and better injury prevention in the form of AAS would you go lighter?

would you not want to maximize your muscle building potential by damaging more tissue and rebuilding it faster?

I think its crap but then again I am still new myself.


#3

[quote]ironmiketyson wrote:


I watched this clip and it suggests that people on juice should be doing light high rep training instead of heavy low rep training

anyone have any opinions on it?

is it complete crap?
[/quote]

Well he’s trying to make it an “all or none” deal with regards to the intensity etc. it looks like. And he’s out of his ass there. It’s contradictory to say if you’re natural train hard and heavy, but if you’re on steroids, go light and high rep.

He has a point if you are young or don’t know wtf you’re doing, but that’s stupid to advise a long term powerlifter or bodybuilder who decides to take some AAS on how they should train in a huge broad term like that.

He alludes to the tendond/ligaments not being strong enough to handle the increased weight basicly, and while this is true for noobs, and guys with low experience training, it certainly isn’t true for someone with a long history of training heavy already. So in that regard his head is up his ass yeah.


#4

This is the classic bodybuilder versus powerlifter scenario. You put a bodybuilder on 3G of Test a week and he builds 21" arms on 10-15reps. Yet the powerlifter with 18" arms can out bench the bodybuilder by several hundred pounds. The highest instance for injury occurs when the muscles grow but the tendons and ligaments supporting those muscles do not grow. 10-15 reps might make muscles grow but they do next to nothing for tendons.


#5

[quote]InTheZone wrote:
Well he’s trying to make it an “all or none” deal with regards to the intensity etc. it looks like. And he’s out of his ass there. It’s contradictory to say if you’re natural train hard and heavy, but if you’re on steroids, go light and high rep.

He has a point if you are young or don’t know wtf you’re doing, but that’s stupid to advise a long term powerlifter or bodybuilder who decides to take some AAS on how they should train in a huge broad term like that.

He alludes to the tendond/ligaments not being strong enough to handle the increased weight basicly, and while this is true for noobs, and guys with low experience training, it certainly isn’t true for someone with a long history of training heavy already. So in that regard his head is up his ass yeah.[/quote]

I’m think tendond/ligaments thing, is due to fact that some AAS make them much weaker, while making you alot stronger and to IMO I don’t see much people taking this into consideration.

Ex: test


#6

I would vigorously dispute the claim the gear makes tendons and ligaments weaker. You will not find any documented evidence of that myth. I again site professional or elite level powerlifters and how much less they suffer tendon injuries compared with other professional athletes and bodybuilders. Training is most of it to be sure.


#7

[quote]sapasion wrote:
I would vigorously dispute the claim the gear makes tendons and ligaments weaker. You will not find any documented evidence of that myth. I again site professional or elite level powerlifters and how much less they suffer tendon injuries compared with other professional athletes and bodybuilders. Training is most of it to be sure.[/quote]

Saspion,
Its not that they become weaker in an absolute sense, they are weaker relative to the surrounding muscle. So the muscle is able to sustain loads that the supporting tendons and ligaments arent ready for yet.


#8

I don’t believe gear makes tendons weaker, but muscles contain the anabolic receptors and tendons don’t, so the muscles can get proportionately stronger much faster. The muscles can very quickly lift weights that the tendons can’t handle repeatedly.

In my own case, I was enjoying lifting heavier and heavier weights so much, that I went completely overboard on the heavy, low/rep work and my joints are now trashed.

Probably would’ve worked out much better for me if I had alternated and done 3 wk mini-cycles of light/medium/heavy - a recommendation you will see in many of the articles posted at T-Nation. This not only allows the tendons to ‘catch-up’, but also keeps muscles from becoming acclimated to one particular set of stressors.


#9

[quote]testolius wrote:
I don’t believe gear makes tendons weaker, but muscles contain the anabolic receptors and tendons don’t, so the muscles can get proportionately stronger much faster. The muscles can very quickly lift weights that the tendons can’t handle repeatedly.

In my own case, I was enjoying lifting heavier and heavier weights so much, that I went completely overboard on the heavy, low/rep work and my joints are now trashed.

Probably would’ve worked out much better for me if I had alternated and done 3 wk mini-cycles of light/medium/heavy - a recommendation you will see in many of the articles posted at T-Nation. This not only allows the tendons to ‘catch-up’, but also keeps muscles from becoming acclimated to one particular set of stressors.[/quote]

You are correct. IE the case of Russian lifter in late 1950’s.


#10

i can sense bs and that guy was full of it. so steroids users need lower weight because they need blood circulating, but natural lifters dont. natural lifters need muscle stimulation with high weight, but steroids users dont.
typical weasle talk that was


#11

[quote]sapasion wrote:
I would vigorously dispute the claim the gear makes tendons and ligaments weaker. You will not find any documented evidence of that myth. I again site professional or elite level powerlifters and how much less they suffer tendon injuries compared with other professional athletes and bodybuilders. Training is most of it to be sure.[/quote]

I didn’t mean gear in general just test by itself and over 250mg because it inhibit colagen synthesis at a very high degree


#12

Well, Im on a cycle right now of 500mg Test E/Week. I have noticed latley that my joints seem to be getting weaker in comparison to muscle growth.

I was thinking that it was probably because my tendons and such havent had time to catch up. Ive been going pretty heavy on the training.

I notice it mostly in my knees when I squat, particularly my left knee. Its not really pain, but more of a “my legs dont feel like they can hold this much weight” feeling/irritation. Regular cardio and stretching seems to help.

So I would agree with testolius in saying that mabey training in cycles while on is the best approach, that way nothing really gets left behind.

I would hate to gain 20lbs of muscle and not have the ligaments and tendons to support it.


#13

Here’s some interesting tidbits on different steroids and their effects on collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle synthesis. I’m not saying this is the holy grail, but just get yourself past the “bro” this and that at the start, and the rest of it’s a pretty good read and makes sense to me.

Enjoy! Or not!

ToneBone

Steroids and tendons - 03-11-2008


While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% – more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It’s like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can’t tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position – winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don’t get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a ‘normal’ physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want – an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% – less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% – slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner – the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I’ve read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good – they increase several biomakers of collagen syn – ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.

Pretty interesting huh boys?
I wasn’t aware to be honest that test did that much of a workover on collagen synthesis at all.

I’m currently having my delt looked at via several xrays, and an MRI sometime this week probably, and would like to take matters into my own hands if the doc finds a minor injury such as a small tear, that is surgery debateable.
If so, I will opt for some GH, and deca probably if I can get it. I’ve heard unreal success stories of tendon repair with HGH, in as little as 2 weeks.

The problem is if I can afford it, lol.

Ciao guys,

ToneBone


#14

Tone that is an interesting read to be sure. Perhaps this is why I did so well on my last three cycles which were deca test combos. Never used winny, probably never will. It totally destroyed Barry Bonds elbows and what not but thats a much different story.

Several have talked about tendons not being prepared for when the muscles themselves get so much proportionally stronger so fast. My point again as stated above is so much comes down to training. Since every week I take maximal lifts and use supra-maximal weights for partial range movements my tendons and ligaments are absolutely prepared for heavier weights.

To put this in numbers. Last week I did 420 for a raw 2 board, 455x4 off the 4 board and 505x2 for the 5 board all raw. The prior week I did some three inche pin presses [a lockout where the bar only moves the final three inches till my arms are locked out. Its a total tendon, ligament, joint and tricep exercise] 565x4. June 1 I will start my latest cycle. Test, tren and dbol. Knowing how my body is on tren, as well as dbol and test I expect to be very near to 500lbs for my raw 2 board by mid July. That’s 80lbs, almost 20% call it what you want. Here’s the thing I am already very used to having 500+ lbs in my hands. With my Westside based training every week I will be maxing out in some fashion. Perhaps I’m slightly taking over and around the issue but if you train your tendons and ligaments they will be ready for the increased loads even under the rapid surges of a strength cycle.


#15

Good Read TB!

It seems as if the pre-existing contition of ligaments and tendons prior to cycling has something to do with it.

I believe what sapasion is saying about training being large factor behind this, but on both sides on the argument. ex. Sapasion obviously trains with excercises that help condition his joints, tendons and ligaments regularly. So like hes saying, when he cycles his body is already used to the extra stress on joints, tendons, and ligaments so its less of an issue for him.

On the other hand, a guy who regulary trains in the higher rep range and doesnt do a lot of low rep work would not have the same result on the joints, ligaments, and tendons. So when he cycles, starts lifing much heavier much faster, and very rapidly start increasing in strength and mass, the toll is greater on the joints, ligaments and tendons.

So point is, maybe its a case by case thing kinda like test flu. Some people get it, others dont. In either case, its good knowlege to have in case it becomes an issue.


#16

That’s the article I was thinking about when said that test (over 2OOmg) weakens tendons


#17

sure it was!!


#18

Ronnie lifts 12 reps in most of his exercises in his videos! With heavy back he does 12/10/8/5/2 on deadlift and then 12 reps for the rest! just a thought…


#19

“Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread”

200-300mg of Test will really increase libido - you dont need a gram a week to do that! Stacking it with say 400-600mg of EQ and bingo, you’re in a decent 600-900mg a week range of gear, your libido is really up, and you protect your tendons.