T Nation

How to Push Past Set Points on BF

Bigger Stronger Leaner
#1

Stats 35 180lb M BF 13-14% (goal 10%)

I’ve read a lot of conflicting info on body fat set points and pushing past them to shred off that nagging 2-3%
One school of thought is the eat more frequent meals & no need to count cals

The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

I’ve tried both for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle

Heres my basic diet an routine any pointers would be appreciated

Anabolic diet 12xBW in calls M-SU with only 1 carb up day

3 Split 45min weights Back, Legs, Arms Reapeat Off Sunday for refead ( No chest and shoulder work as Im healing from Shoulder repair just doing rehab work or a few light sets here and there)

45min SS Cardio M-SA fasted in mornings

Why weight goes up slightly MM seems bigger in mirror and BF have stayed about the same for 3-4 weeks

Supps protien shakes 3x day and multivitamins
Gear 2Mg Test cyp weekly 2-3ius HGH daily

#2

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

…for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle
[/quote]

If you ate the same number of calories each day for two weeks and did not drop scale weight then you were not in a deficit.

#3

I would think some HIIT would help, but doing that on the Anabolic Diet might make things worse.

#4

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

…for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle
[/quote]

If you ate the same number of calories each day for two weeks and did not drop scale weight then you were not in a deficit.
[/quote]

Based on fullness and how the body is looking though, it doesn’t always mean he needs to drop more calories.

#5

I honestly haven’t met anyone who’s gotten to the level of leanness you’re after on AD.

I think its a good time to start counting macros and ditching the notion of putting a label on your diet. High pro, mod fat, low carb all week with a weekly carb up could work great. Best to track the numbers now though to make it “easier” on yourself.

#6

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

…for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle
[/quote]

If you ate the same number of calories each day for two weeks and did not drop scale weight then you were not in a deficit.
[/quote]

This. Also idk why anyone would advocate not counting calories when trying to lose weight. That’s extremely counterproductive

#7

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

…for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle
[/quote]

If you ate the same number of calories each day for two weeks and did not drop scale weight then you were not in a deficit.
[/quote]

Based on fullness and how the body is looking though, it doesn’t always mean he needs to drop more calories.[/quote]

Coming from the leanness expert. Really.

What’s your cardio like? How long have you diet? What have macros been like up this point? How much weight have you dropped? More info the better

#8

Maybe the OP saw some lat growth and just decided to ride this one out.

#9

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

…for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle
[/quote]

If you ate the same number of calories each day for two weeks and did not drop scale weight then you were not in a deficit.
[/quote]

This. Also idk why anyone would advocate not counting calories when trying to lose weight. That’s extremely counterproductive
[/quote]
If you know your body well enough and pretty much eat the same thing everyday, I don’t see any reason to count calories. I have never counted calories in my life, but I still know when I’m in a deficit or surplus. I think over the years you get to know how your body works and can measure whats going in just from eying and fullness of certain foods. Not sure if that makes any sense or not…lol

#10

[quote]AzCats wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

…for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle
[/quote]

If you ate the same number of calories each day for two weeks and did not drop scale weight then you were not in a deficit.
[/quote]

This. Also idk why anyone would advocate not counting calories when trying to lose weight. That’s extremely counterproductive
[/quote]
If you know your body well enough and pretty much eat the same thing everyday, I don’t see any reason to count calories. I have never counted calories in my life, but I still know when I’m in a deficit or surplus. I think over the years you get to know how your body works and can measure whats going in just from eying and fullness of certain foods. Not sure if that makes any sense or not…lol[/quote]

From the ops Problem I would venture a guess he’s not there yet

#11

I’m pretty much in the same boat around 11-12%. I count macros and calories so now that I’m stalling at a level of caloric intake that was dropping weight for me, it’s either drop more calories or add cardio. I decided to add cardio instead because I’m already at 2300 calories and any lower is too little for me, plus the fact that I’m squatting heavy around 5x week. I’ve been doing HIIT cardio a few times a week and I’m beginning to see some progress again.

#12

[quote]AzCats wrote:

[quote]Mtag666 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
The other is count cals and create a calorie deficit

…for 2 weeks and still cant move the needle
[/quote]

If you ate the same number of calories each day for two weeks and did not drop scale weight then you were not in a deficit.
[/quote]

This. Also idk why anyone would advocate not counting calories when trying to lose weight. That’s extremely counterproductive
[/quote]
If you know your body well enough and pretty much eat the same thing everyday, I don’t see any reason to count calories. I have never counted calories in my life, but I still know when I’m in a deficit or surplus. I think over the years you get to know how your body works and can measure whats going in just from eying and fullness of certain foods. Not sure if that makes any sense or not…lol[/quote]

No I get what you’re saying. If food choices are mostly constant then you “know” if you are in a deficit or surplus almost. There’s been times where I’ve had to eat the same stuff (financial reasons) that I wouldn’t have to count because it was consistent.

#13

Wow lots of feedback thanks :slight_smile: seems like consenus is count cals. I pretty much eat the same every day so at this point thats why I dont count everything. My macros are pretty much 50% fat 45% protien 5% carbs I loosly base this on many months counting everything and I pretty much eat the same stuff now. Im not opposed to scrapping AD for awhile to shock the sytem but I’ve done the whole High carb low fat thing before with not much sucess. I’ve had good sucess on Paleo before but it was really a drag to follow. Had nice mass gains on AD and fat loss was close to paleo. I quess thats why Ive done it so long.

Also yes fullness and mass looks good lately Its just my belly fat that seems to not want to melt off. Im finnaly now able to lift so my fear is loosing size just when Im finally getting it back along with strength and mobility. I was loosing about 2% a month until now. I pretty much let my self go after massive shoulder surgery.

My cardio is 45min mornings no food eliptical 4miles set on 10
Weights are split into days where I blast body parts Back, Legs, Arms 45min pretty hard workout only 30sec rest between sets repeat off Sunday (very minimal chest and shoulder work I get that in daily rehab routines)
Rehab and Ab work daily10-20min
Cals about 1900-2500 50% fat 45% protien 5% carb

Would you all say 10-15X BW in cals or use the TDEE as the best way to calculate a proper deficit?
Also if I keep protien at 1.5G per LB will I be cool to continue lifting hard with gains in size?
When could I throw HIIT in so I still have proper recovery time on legs?

#14

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:

Would you all say 10-15X BW in cals or use the TDEE as the best way to calculate a proper deficit?
[/quote]

Measure and count what you are currently eating. If your weight is not changing at that weight well then…
The following week lower that intake by +/- 500cals/day

#15

[quote]zraw wrote:

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:

Would you all say 10-15X BW in cals or use the TDEE as the best way to calculate a proper deficit?
[/quote]

Measure and count what you are currently eating. If your weight is not changing at that weight well then…
The following week lower that intake by =/- 500cals/day[/quote]
This

#16

Thanks guys solid simple advice very zen. I will do this :slight_smile: On a side note I was able to shed 3lbs this week so thats a plus

#17

somthing to try with your cardio in the morning is some muscle activation, somthing like 100 KB swings or 100 clean and press(light) mabey even mixing it in to break up boardem, like 10min cardio–25 swings, the AD diet is about hormones and reving up your body in the morning can help, I used to work out at Dr Mauro’s gym, the guys a genius, I’ve seen him working with BBer’s and doing amazing things with his diet, it’s not like other diets, it’s about manipulating hormones, not calorie deficits. If this is the diet your useing, you need to really understand how and why it works, I’m in know way an expert on AD but I witnessed the author at work, and some lifting in the morning is somthing I’ve seen, and in turn used with some of my clients over the years, other than this I would say if your useing AD study the book and use the sights, I,ve seen total transformations with it, but it’s a tough go. Goodluck

#18

Thanks Jake I’ve followed the AD for 2 yrs now I like it but it can be tough. For what ever reason It works great for me when bulking but for cutting I have a tough run of it. Im debating going 50% protien 25% fat 25% at 500cal below TDEE just to see if I get the same results as the cut phase on AD… For what its worth after switching to paleo then AD I’ve found that my energy and guts run better on a high fat diet. The only thing that concerns me is I get very little nutrients that fruit and vegies provide as they are only on the weekends for the last 2 years.

#19

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
Im debating going 50% protien 25% fat 25% at 500cal below TDEE just to see if I get the same results as the cut phase on AD… For what its worth after switching to paleo then AD I’ve found that my energy and guts run better on a high fat diet. The only thing that concerns me is I get very little nutrients that fruit and vegies provide as they are only on the weekends for the last 2 years. [/quote]

This sounds very reasonable to me. I vote go for it, but don’t transition overnight. Slowly increase pro and carb…slowly drop fat.

I had a similar experience to you btw when I went paleo with high fat, mod pro, low carb. It’s great to get you to that level of leanness you’re at now…but then you just kind of stick.

#20

I don’t know about paleo, but this time of year I switch to a protien and raw fruit veggie diet, been doing it for a couple years, think it’s kind of what your talking about, i get lean, have lots of energy, and can kinda eat as much as I want, within the confines of the diet, big veggie platters till I’m stuffed to the gills, lol, been doing this in the spring for years. goodluck