How to Handle a Dog Attack

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I should be more clear. Dog bites are common and can happen anywhere but I wouldn’t call that an attack. I guess technically it is an attack but I picture getting bitten by a dog and getting attacked as two different things when looking at the original post. In that context I picture an attack as a dog engaging in a fight.

There is a difference between a dog barking, snapping and trying to bite vs a dog that is coming at you with the mindset that it will kill if necessary. Keeping from getting bitten is a different scenario than fighting a dog. [/quote]

Interesting subject/thread, and one that I don’t know much about. But, putting semantics and definitions aside, I think the general question raised by Furo has to do with a situation like, for example:

You’re walking down a street or sidewalk minding your own business. As you pass a certain house, a large, strong, aggressive, seemingly angry dog (pit bull, rottweiler, German shephard, etc.), which is unleashed and has no owner/guardian in sight, starts loudly barking and sprinting at you, just like you’d see a police dog do to a perpetrator.

It is not clear what the dog is thinking, what his reasoning is, whether he fully thought this through, or whether he is so frighteningly ticked off because he had a difficult childhood and his dad left him or merely because somebody pissed in his Alpo that day. The only thing we know is that he has decided to charge at you at full clip, teeth bared, snarling and growling, as ferociously as a dog is capable of doing. He IS going to attack you, with no-kidding bad intentions.

What do you do?

I believe that is the meat of the question, all semantics aside.

22

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I should be more clear. Dog bites are common and can happen anywhere but I wouldn’t call that an attack. I guess technically it is an attack but I picture getting bitten by a dog and getting attacked as two different things when looking at the original post. In that context I picture an attack as a dog engaging in a fight.

There is a difference between a dog barking, snapping and trying to bite vs a dog that is coming at you with the mindset that it will kill if necessary. Keeping from getting bitten is a different scenario than fighting a dog. [/quote]

Interesting subject/thread, and one that I don’t know much about. But, putting semantics and definitions aside, I think the general question raised by Furo has to do with a situation like, for example:

You’re walking down a street or sidewalk minding your own business. As you pass a certain house, a large, strong, aggressive, seemingly angry dog (pit bull, rottweiler, German shephard, etc.), which is unleashed and has no owner/guardian in sight, starts loudly barking and sprinting at you, just like you’d see a police dog do to a perpetrator.

It is not clear what the dog is thinking, what his reasoning is, whether he fully thought this through, or whether he is so frighteningly ticked off because he had a difficult childhood and his dad left him or merely because somebody pissed in his Alpo that day. The only thing we know is that he has decided to charge at you at full clip, teeth bared, snarling and growling, as ferociously as a dog is capable of doing. He IS going to attack you, with no-kidding bad intentions.

What do you do?

I believe that is the meat of the question, all semantics aside.
[/quote]

Exactly, thanks man.

23

Morning all,

I’m a bit late to this party. Just now getting my first coffee, hope this is coherent.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Uncle gave me advice for a pitbull attack once

“stick yer finger up its bum”

To this day I’m not sure if this is a personal anecdote or advice he received[/quote]

Q: What do you do when a pitbull humps your leg?

A: Fake an orgasm.

Regards,

Robert A

24

In that case: prepare yourself, in the few seconds you have, for the fight of your life. Fortunately this type of situation happening to someone who didn’t have it coming is rare. One reason is that dogs who are fearless killers usually are calm and clearheaded so it takes an actual threat to set them off. They’re badasses and they know it. K9 officers have to be able to have their dogs live with them in their homes which may have kids.

25

[quote]furo wrote:
Sentoguy that is really interesting, thank you. Could you go into a bit more detail on how they would break the dogs neck? I’d have thought it would require a hell of a lot of force.[/quote]

I’m not Sentoguy, but the techniques I have seen hinge, its early and that’s the best pun I got, on inducing a large degree of cervical extension, cervical rotation, and often a bit of contra-lateral lateral flexion in the upper cervical spine. All of that is coupled with long axis distraction. Basically trying to induce a “hangman’s fracture”. This is not at all dissimilar to many techniques taught for dislocating or breaking a human neck.

In theory it doesn’t take much force. Of course “in theory” there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice…

Given a dynamic situation the less perfect the angle/technique the more you are going to be patching it with force.

My training in comparative anatomy was limited to undergraduate studies and I am making the assumption that the mechanism of injury is similar to that found in humans. Hangman’s fractures are completer fractures of both pars interarticularis of the C2 vertebrae. The resultant cervical instability can put the spinal cord at risk, and at the C2 or C3 level severe injury can effect the patient’s ability to breath. It is worth noting that hangman’s fractures are not at all uncommon among cervical fractures, a good many people walk into Emergency rooms or doctors offices with them and have complaints more in the “stiff neck” end of things rather than “I’m dying”, and that in many cases no surgical treatment is done.

In a legal “long drop” hanging there is a serious amount of long axis distraction force put on the spinal chord. This may not be present in a close quarters fight. The supposed reasons for the neck destruction/break being a lethal technique in close quarters are damage to the spinal chord as it is pulled into contact with other vertebrae and possible stroke from sudden torque to the vertebral basilar arteries causing arterial dissection. Medical evidence makes it clear that a good many cervical fractures are neither fatal, nor immediately debilitating in and of themselves. We should also note that in addition to the serious distraction forces associated with drop hanging, the method prescribes an extended period of “hang” after the drop during which strangulation via cerebral ischemia or just plane old asphyxiation can occur. Additionally, not all long drop hangings result in a fracture, and a good number of those fractures are not the “hangman’s fracture” or even high enough to be life threatening in and of themselves.

Regards,

Robert A

26

[quote]furo wrote:
As I’m sure you can tell I have very little experience in this topic, but this is exactly what I was thinking.
[/quote]

I’m not at all trying to minimize the risk of facing an aggressive, large breed, and dangerous dog. In fact, I rather like one of my friend’s rules that “Any dog close to half your body weight or greater can kill you if things go bad.” I think Sento, Irish, and Idaho have given you great advice. I am going to offer the following points to perhaps pull this into more of the things you already know/are comfortable with.

SAME RULES AS LAST YEAR

1.) Fighting an aggressive dog is a shit show. They have teeth. This is not entirely unlike facing someone with an edged weapon. So, the saw about “rush a gun, run from a knife” is worth thinking about. It may very well be a case where a “good outcome” involves a bunch of stitches and may be surgery for you and a slab for your attacker. Same rules as last year. (I posted a classic video on surviving edged weapons in an earlier thread. It might be worth looking up just for the mind set.)

2.) There is a world of difference between a dog posturing, “nipping”, or launching an all out attack. Recognizing what you are facing is important, but somewhat difficult to do in real time without a significant amount of experience with animals. Of course, the same can be said when talking about defense against criminal assault, or ambush, or MOUT, or anything. Hell, just figuring out if a girl likes you was confusing as all hell the first time we had to do it. Gather the information you can. If you have zero background, watch some Cesar Milan/Dog Whisperer videos, and drive on as best you can. So, same rules as last year.

3.) Irish has made a point that knees and kicks work well. He is right. I would like to point out that knees or kicks tend to be easier to land and more effective when you are stable and your target is standing relatively still or moving backwards. Kneeing or kicking while backpeddling is usually a bad idea. Just because you are kicking lower, doesn’t mean this isn’t still true. So, if you want to use your legs to kick or knee, you need to do it at the right times. Use your legs to create angles and distance until then. Same rules as last year.

4.) Related to 3, you do not want to be back peddling. People move faster forward than backing up. Dogs move much faster forward, than you can back up. If you can avoid the dog’s “contact weapons” so be it. If you can play bull fighter and take the dog at the flanks that is fine. But if you are going to have contact either take an angle or step in. We should remember that a dog’s teeth don’t jut forward like a rattler’s. If you make contact with the dog’s nose before it could bite that is a good thing. Remember Sento’s point about feeding into a bite if it happens. So, if things are completely going to hell and you are in a literal fur ball, FORWARD PRESSURE. DO DAMAGE. This is not at all dissimilar to combatives/martial arts doctrine. Same rules as last year.

5.) You do not want to be on the ground against a dog. You especially do not want to be underneath the damn thing. Of course this is pretty common advice in any kind of self defense situation, and especially when you are facing something that can put holes in you. If you have to hit the ground “Hard Parts go in their soft parts, and try to be on top”. Then get up as soon as you can. Same rules as last year.

6.) Numbers. More than one dog is an exponential increase in trouble. A pack of aggressive dog’s can be a mauling or the scene of your death. IF you can be somewhere else do so. If not, stay mobile, stay conscious and use that consciousness to think if you can, DO DAMAGE, and try to get somewhere safe. You do not want to have your rear or flanks exposed. A dog biting your heals, legs, or ass from behind while another snarls in front of you is predatory behavior. It’s a murder fight. Treat it as such. Same rules as last year.

7.) Idaho mentioned weapons. If the size or number of the animals makes their threat a potentially lethal one than do your damdest to get a piece of steel in your hands. If you didn’t bring your own knife or gun than take any opportunity to find something that either gives you range (sticks, brooms, chairs, trash cans, etc) or has a sharp edge. If you don’t have time before the violence starts, seize opportunities as they arise, but fight in the mean time. You probably are using both your arms to fight, and either moving or striking with your legs so getting “in fight” access to a weapon may be tough. A lot of folks like to have at least one option on each side of their center line. For some this is a knife opposite their side arm. For others this may be a pen in a pocket opposite their pepper spray. I know of at least one mechanic/service station employee who was seriously fond of always having a crescent wrench and a screw driver on him. Laws and your comfort levels will dictate individual choices. Dog’s already have the tools to open you up. Using finger nails and bad language in a lethal force encounter is a rugged choice. Same rules as last year.

8.) Avoidance is best. Preparedness is for situations less than ideal. IF you can avoid getting bloody do so. IF the dog is being territorial, and you are some where you can leave than do so. If not, this may be a run what you brung situation. Whatcha bring? See point 7. Often a pack can be dissuaded by making a warning out of the first individual. This is especially true with accurate gun fire. Same rules as last year.

Regards,

Robert A

27

In the interest of comedy:

I have a dog fight story to add to idaho’s and FightinIrish’s.

A few years ago I was attacked by male doberman that must have had me confused with whoever killed it’s parents because it wanted me dead. It felt like I had zero warning, no barking, no growling, just all of a sudden teeth, spit, and snarling where all over me.

It was all I could do to keep my feet under me as I tried to beat the damn thing to death with my fists and knees while clutching/hanging on to anything that could keep me upright. I have no idea how a dog can be that hard to knock out, but it was like nothing I did fazed it.

Finally, I was able to pull its sweater over its head and hockey fight it.

Ok, so it was a Min Pin.

Mix.

Fine, fuck you guys. It was a chihuahua. But the thing was ill tempered as hell.

That still counts as “seeing the elephant” right?

Damn it.

Regards,

Robert A

28

[quote]Damici wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I should be more clear. Dog bites are common and can happen anywhere but I wouldn’t call that an attack. I guess technically it is an attack but I picture getting bitten by a dog and getting attacked as two different things when looking at the original post. In that context I picture an attack as a dog engaging in a fight.

There is a difference between a dog barking, snapping and trying to bite vs a dog that is coming at you with the mindset that it will kill if necessary. Keeping from getting bitten is a different scenario than fighting a dog. [/quote]

Interesting subject/thread, and one that I don’t know much about. But, putting semantics and definitions aside, I think the general question raised by Furo has to do with a situation like, for example:

You’re walking down a street or sidewalk minding your own business. As you pass a certain house, a large, strong, aggressive, seemingly angry dog (pit bull, rottweiler, German shephard, etc.), which is unleashed and has no owner/guardian in sight, starts loudly barking and sprinting at you, just like you’d see a police dog do to a perpetrator.

It is not clear what the dog is thinking, what his reasoning is, whether he fully thought this through, or whether he is so frighteningly ticked off because he had a difficult childhood and his dad left him or merely because somebody pissed in his Alpo that day. The only thing we know is that he has decided to charge at you at full clip, teeth bared, snarling and growling, as ferociously as a dog is capable of doing. He IS going to attack you, with no-kidding bad intentions.

What do you do?

I believe that is the meat of the question, all semantics aside.
[/quote]

What would I do?

I am going to take Davo’s uncle’s advice and make sure I spit on my thumbs whenever I see a dog.

Regards,

Robert A

29

Something to keep in mind when it comes to striking a dog: there is a good chance that whatever you are using, open hand, fist, foot, leg, will end up in its mouth.

It helps if you know why the dog is attacking. It’s why I originally asked what was being done to make the dog attack. Why the dog is attacking will usually dictate how it attacks and how much effort it will put into the fight. It can dictate if there will even be a fight after the attack. If a dog sees you as prey then he might stop after some amount of resistance. A wolf doesn’t expect a rabbit to fight back. If the dog is defending himself, his owner, his property, etc., he might fight to the death.

A dog that is prey driven needs to be in prey. If you are just standing there he probably will ignore you. A dog that is strong in defense needs to be in defense. Don’t threaten it. If it does attack then it’s all about how much fight it has in him and how much you have in you. Pits can be very prey driven. That’s why you have cases where it just won’t let go no matter how hard you hit it. It takes a lot to get it out of that drive. Once it is out of that drive you’ll see a dog that goes from trying to kill to acting like a normal dog.

A dog that is defensive might run off if you intimidate it. These are situations that are manageable. A pit, for example, has a grip on your arm. “All” you have to do is get it to let go and he’ll stop. The dog that is barking at you. Trying to scare you off. You can walk away and he “wins” and life goes on. You can try to scare him and it might work. Maybe a good kick will run him off. The problem arises when the dog goes from prey or defense to fight.

So you try and intimidate the dog that is barking at you and it only pisses him off (or makes him happy) and he attacks. And there are dogs out there, I have owned some, who will take a look in the eye as enough provocation to fight. The dog in prey might let go if you hit it only to rebite. That’s why you see some police dogs letting go and then trying to attack the suspect again. They want to fight. They have even bitten their handlers they can be so wound up to fight.

This is why, if you look at the stats, the people who are killed by dogs are usually old or very young. It’s usually pits. Sometimes there is more than one. Often the victim and dog have some relationship. They chose the weak who were unable to put up enough of a fight to discourage the dog. Dogs just don’t go looking for fights. They need a reason.

I do have my own opinions on how to fight a dog if it comes to that and it’s based on owning big dogs including one that was over 150 pounds. I’m not going to share that info as I don’t like the idea of someone out there having the knowledge about how to kill or hurt a police or military dog or a dog that is protecting his family. If dog attacks were as common as human attacks it would be different. I will say this: if the dog is serious then no matter what you do, unless you are armed, you will get bitten. There is no way around that.

30

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]furo wrote:
As I’m sure you can tell I have very little experience in this topic, but this is exactly what I was thinking.
[/quote]

I’m not at all trying to minimize the risk of facing an aggressive, large breed, and dangerous dog. In fact, I rather like one of my friend’s rules that “Any dog close to half your body weight or greater can kill you if things go bad.” I think Sento, Irish, and Idaho have given you great advice. I am going to offer the following points to perhaps pull this into more of the things you already know/are comfortable with.

SAME RULES AS LAST YEAR

1.) Fighting an aggressive dog is a shit show. They have teeth. This is not entirely unlike facing someone with an edged weapon. So, the saw about “rush a gun, run from a knife” is worth thinking about. It may very well be a case where a “good outcome” involves a bunch of stitches and may be surgery for you and a slab for your attacker. Same rules as last year. (I posted a classic video on surviving edged weapons in an earlier thread. It might be worth looking up just for the mind set.)

2.) There is a world of difference between a dog posturing, “nipping”, or launching an all out attack. Recognizing what you are facing is important, but somewhat difficult to do in real time without a significant amount of experience with animals. Of course, the same can be said when talking about defense against criminal assault, or ambush, or MOUT, or anything. Hell, just figuring out if a girl likes you was confusing as all hell the first time we had to do it. Gather the information you can. If you have zero background, watch some Cesar Milan/Dog Whisperer videos, and drive on as best you can. So, same rules as last year.

3.) Irish has made a point that knees and kicks work well. He is right. I would like to point out that knees or kicks tend to be easier to land and more effective when you are stable and your target is standing relatively still or moving backwards. Kneeing or kicking while backpeddling is usually a bad idea. Just because you are kicking lower, doesn’t mean this isn’t still true. So, if you want to use your legs to kick or knee, you need to do it at the right times. Use your legs to create angles and distance until then. Same rules as last year.

4.) Related to 3, you do not want to be back peddling. People move faster forward than backing up. Dogs move much faster forward, than you can back up. If you can avoid the dog’s “contact weapons” so be it. If you can play bull fighter and take the dog at the flanks that is fine. But if you are going to have contact either take an angle or step in. We should remember that a dog’s teeth don’t jut forward like a rattler’s. If you make contact with the dog’s nose before it could bite that is a good thing. Remember Sento’s point about feeding into a bite if it happens. So, if things are completely going to hell and you are in a literal fur ball, FORWARD PRESSURE. DO DAMAGE. This is not at all dissimilar to combatives/martial arts doctrine. Same rules as last year.

5.) You do not want to be on the ground against a dog. You especially do not want to be underneath the damn thing. Of course this is pretty common advice in any kind of self defense situation, and especially when you are facing something that can put holes in you. If you have to hit the ground “Hard Parts go in their soft parts, and try to be on top”. Then get up as soon as you can. Same rules as last year.

6.) Numbers. More than one dog is an exponential increase in trouble. A pack of aggressive dog’s can be a mauling or the scene of your death. IF you can be somewhere else do so. If not, stay mobile, stay conscious and use that consciousness to think if you can, DO DAMAGE, and try to get somewhere safe. You do not want to have your rear or flanks exposed. A dog biting your heals, legs, or ass from behind while another snarls in front of you is predatory behavior. It’s a murder fight. Treat it as such. Same rules as last year.

7.) Idaho mentioned weapons. If the size or number of the animals makes their threat a potentially lethal one than do your damdest to get a piece of steel in your hands. If you didn’t bring your own knife or gun than take any opportunity to find something that either gives you range (sticks, brooms, chairs, trash cans, etc) or has a sharp edge. If you don’t have time before the violence starts, seize opportunities as they arise, but fight in the mean time. You probably are using both your arms to fight, and either moving or striking with your legs so getting “in fight” access to a weapon may be tough. A lot of folks like to have at least one option on each side of their center line. For some this is a knife opposite their side arm. For others this may be a pen in a pocket opposite their pepper spray. I know of at least one mechanic/service station employee who was seriously fond of always having a crescent wrench and a screw driver on him. Laws and your comfort levels will dictate individual choices. Dog’s already have the tools to open you up. Using finger nails and bad language in a lethal force encounter is a rugged choice. Same rules as last year.

8.) Avoidance is best. Preparedness is for situations less than ideal. IF you can avoid getting bloody do so. IF the dog is being territorial, and you are some where you can leave than do so. If not, this may be a run what you brung situation. Whatcha bring? See point 7. Often a pack can be dissuaded by making a warning out of the first individual. This is especially true with accurate gun fire. Same rules as last year.

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

OP,
I would think this info from Robert is worth reading several times.

Zecarlo,
First, as I stated, I am not a dog guy, so, I cannot advise much on their behavior, except in Law Enforcement situations, but, you are correct about some K-9 officers getting snapped and biten after they have ran down and caught a suspect. We hit a doper and one guy jumped out a rear window and the Sheppard ran him down by grabbing his rear leg. When the K-9 officer tried to pull him off, he turned around and clamped down his hand. He struck it between the eyes with his flashlight and the dog backed off.

Another time on a SWAT raid, I shot a guy with .12 gauge non-lethal round after he refused to drop a knife. Our SWAT dog, “somehow got loose from the handler” and attacked the guy’s leg. The handler and myself couldnt pull him off, he was locked in tight, I finally shot him with a non-lethal round and he broke off the attack. Needless to say, but, we were sued and the dog was taken out of service.

I have a healthy respect for trained dogs, but, I have a hard time fully trusting what the hell they are going to do. just my experiences.

31

The “problem” with K9s is usually down to training and the handler’s level of experience and skill. The dogs are chosen for their genetic predisposition to have strong prey drives. The training revolves around that drive. So you can have a dog that is too much dog for the handler. The irony is that many handlers and/or depts want that kind of dog even though it’s possible that it might not only be the handler’s first K9 but his first dog ever.

Also, K9s tend to not be American dogs. They are imported or if bred here the parents were imported. How they are handled in other countries, the training, the laws regarding deploying the dogs, is different than here. What happens is American LEOs want the “best” dog when they should want the best dog for them. You can see KNPV training and want a dog “just like that.” Well, you’ll get a dog that can do that but are you able to handle that. Some countries take their K9s seriously enough to have their own breeding programs.

Not to get sidetracked but American lines for many breeds are pussified.

32

Thank you very much for all the advice. I always find that the combat forum has some of the most helpful guys on this site. Thanks again.

33

I was looking for something else and came across this:

“In a 6-year study published in the medical journal PEDIATRICS (Vol.97 No. 6, 891-5), Jeffrey J. Sacks, M.D. and associates reported the finding of 109 bite-related fatalities. They found that 57% of the deaths were in children under 10 years of age. 22% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog OFF the owner’s property. 18% of the deaths involved a restrained dog ON the owner’s property, and 59% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog ON the owner’s property.”

Almost 80% of dog related fatalities occurred on the owner’s property. The chances of some random dog attacking you while you are out and about minding your own business is extremely low. The chances that dog will be trying to kill you is even lower. Given that we only have so much time to train I think it makes more sense to focus on more probable scenarios. Think about how much time and effort you need to put in to learn how to fight a person. The same approach would need to be taken to learn how to fight a dog and I doubt you’ll find any dogs who will make willing sparring and compliant training partners. It just isn’t worth it. You can put on boxing gloves and get an idea of what it’s like to get punched in the face so as to get used to it and lose any fear of it. You can’t do the same with a dog bite.

Anyway, my best advice would be to not fight a dog that is attacking you. It might just make the dog fight harder. Protect your face. You don’t want to see pictures of people who have been bitten in the face and head. Some dogs mouths are big enough that they can grab hold of a human head.

If you can use something as a shield, a briefcase, backpack, garbage can lid, jacket or something long like a broom, to keep him away while you look for an exit or shelter that would be ideal. Keep in mind that if you are on the dog’s property then you need to retreat. You can’t expect the dog to get scared off. It does happen but it’s a gamble. Besides, killing someone’s dog on their property could get you shot.

But I assume you aren’t a burglar or planning a home invasion so this shouldn’t be the case. Get in a car. Climb over a fence, although some dogs can clear 6 foot fences with ease, it might back off thinking it has “won.” The strategy is to get away with the least amount of damage done. If the dog bites and holds your arm, don’t hit it. You know where he is. You aren’t going to die. Just look for somewhere to go. Drag the dog with you to a car then think about getting him to let go. If he let’s go and you have nowhere to run to then he’ll just bite you again.

If he gets a hold of your coat sleeve, don’t try yanking it out. He’ll just come back harder if you do. Anyone who has played tug with a dog knows that. Let him have the clothing. It’s better than your flesh. Instead of yanking just pull as though you want to drag him, which you do, and again, head for some exit from the situation. Once there, let him have the jacket, coat, whatever.

You really don’t want to fight a dog. They were better designed to beat people than we were to beat them. Every time you try and hit him you offer him something to bite. The more you fight the more he will be bite. Better to suffer one bite and get away than suffer many trying to win, even if somehow you do win.

Don’t let pride get you hurt. If someone were to ask you what you would do if a bear attacked you, you would have no problem saying you would run away screaming like a girl. For some reason a lot of guys think a retreating strategy for a dog attack is a sign of cowardice. They think that up until the time they actually see a big dog up close, let alone when they feel that first bite.

I’ve seen grown men who were not pussies in the least get a look of fear when one of my dogs simply looked at them. There are few things as off putting as getting stared down by a big dog.

34

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I was looking for something else and came across this:

“In a 6-year study published in the medical journal PEDIATRICS (Vol.97 No. 6, 891-5), Jeffrey J. Sacks, M.D. and associates reported the finding of 109 bite-related fatalities. They found that 57% of the deaths were in children under 10 years of age. 22% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog OFF the owner’s property. 18% of the deaths involved a restrained dog ON the owner’s property, and 59% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog ON the owner’s property.”

Almost 80% of dog related fatalities occurred on the owner’s property. The chances of some random dog attacking you while you are out and about minding your own business is extremely low. The chances that dog will be trying to kill you is even lower. Given that we only have so much time to train I think it makes more sense to focus on more probable scenarios. Think about how much time and effort you need to put in to learn how to fight a person. The same approach would need to be taken to learn how to fight a dog and I doubt you’ll find any dogs who will make willing sparring and compliant training partners. It just isn’t worth it. You can put on boxing gloves and get an idea of what it’s like to get punched in the face so as to get used to it and lose any fear of it. You can’t do the same with a dog bite.

Anyway, my best advice would be to not fight a dog that is attacking you. It might just make the dog fight harder. Protect your face. You don’t want to see pictures of people who have been bitten in the face and head. Some dogs mouths are big enough that they can grab hold of a human head.

If you can use something as a shield, a briefcase, backpack, garbage can lid, jacket or something long like a broom, to keep him away while you look for an exit or shelter that would be ideal. Keep in mind that if you are on the dog’s property then you need to retreat. You can’t expect the dog to get scared off. It does happen but it’s a gamble. Besides, killing someone’s dog on their property could get you shot.

But I assume you aren’t a burglar or planning a home invasion so this shouldn’t be the case. Get in a car. Climb over a fence, although some dogs can clear 6 foot fences with ease, it might back off thinking it has “won.” The strategy is to get away with the least amount of damage done. If the dog bites and holds your arm, don’t hit it. You know where he is. You aren’t going to die. Just look for somewhere to go. Drag the dog with you to a car then think about getting him to let go. If he let’s go and you have nowhere to run to then he’ll just bite you again.

If he gets a hold of your coat sleeve, don’t try yanking it out. He’ll just come back harder if you do. Anyone who has played tug with a dog knows that. Let him have the clothing. It’s better than your flesh. Instead of yanking just pull as though you want to drag him, which you do, and again, head for some exit from the situation. Once there, let him have the jacket, coat, whatever.

You really don’t want to fight a dog. They were better designed to beat people than we were to beat them. Every time you try and hit him you offer him something to bite. The more you fight the more he will be bite. Better to suffer one bite and get away than suffer many trying to win, even if somehow you do win.

Don’t let pride get you hurt. If someone were to ask you what you would do if a bear attacked you, you would have no problem saying you would run away screaming like a girl. For some reason a lot of guys think a retreating strategy for a dog attack is a sign of cowardice. They think that up until the time they actually see a big dog up close, let alone when they feel that first bite.

I’ve seen grown men who were not pussies in the least get a look of fear when one of my dogs simply looked at them. There are few things as off putting as getting stared down by a big dog. [/quote]

Thanks for this, it’s really useful. It was just these kinds of tips I was looking for.

I get what you are saying about it being incredibly rare.

The thing is, relatively untrained as I am, I think in a human on human confrontation I’d at least have some ideas of what to do: I could try to de-escalate the situation, I’d have a chance of outrunning them and I could possibly fight them off. I’d at least have a few basic options. It just struck me that if I was attacked by a dog I wouldn’t have the slightest clue of how to de-escalate it or fight them off, and I wouldn’t have a hope in hell of outrunning it. So I was just looking for some general ideas.

My take home message from this thread is:

  1. Avoid the situation in the first place
  2. Try to escape if possible (up tree/over fence etc)
  3. Dogs think in different ways and can be in different modes (defence/prey etc) - no one strategy works in all cases
  4. Stay standing at all costs
  5. Feeding a bite is often a good idea
  6. Knees/kicks are a good idea at the right time
  7. Angles are good, moving straight backwards is bad
  8. Improvise a weapon if possible

Thanks again for the input guys!

35

Whether right or wrong we tend to project with people. We assume they are people, we are people, so we have some common understanding and reference points. That’s what helps the people who are most successful at victimizing others; they don’t think like “normal” people. You bump into someone in a bar. You think saying excuse me or sorry will suffice because it would suffice for you but he smashes a bottle over your head which was the last thing you expected.

That’s probably one reason why you’ll read on here someone saying always assume the other guy has a weapon. Always assume he will fight “dirty.” So always assume a strange dog will bite unless you are experienced enough with dogs to be able to read them well and, are willing to risk it.

I saw one episode of The Dog Whisperer in which he looked at a dog from a safe distance and he said that he wasn’t even going to try and approach him. Usually he will approach a dog because he has an idea of what will set it off. With this dog he said just looking at him was enough to set him off.

36

From my experience, you are most at risk of being attacked if you are carrying a child. Every single time a dog has gotten aggressive with me I was carrying a child. I think dogs are freaked out by it, they see you as some kind of two headed monster or something. Probably a reason to use a stroller but I never bothered when my kids were babies. I always just picked them up and went for a walk.

37

[quote]on edge wrote:
From my experience, you are most at risk of being attacked if you are carrying a child. Every single time a dog has gotten aggressive with me I was carrying a child. I think dogs are freaked out by it, they see you as some kind of two headed monster or something. Probably a reason to use a stroller but I never bothered when my kids were babies. I always just picked them up and went for a walk.[/quote]
Depends on the dog. Some see a squirming, squeaky, crying little thing as any other prey animal. Some might be trying to protect the child.

38

Does pepper spray work or does it just piss the animal off? Stun Gun?

39

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:
From my experience, you are most at risk of being attacked if you are carrying a child. Every single time a dog has gotten aggressive with me I was carrying a child. I think dogs are freaked out by it, they see you as some kind of two headed monster or something. Probably a reason to use a stroller but I never bothered when my kids were babies. I always just picked them up and went for a walk.[/quote]
Depends on the dog. Some see a squirming, squeaky, crying little thing as any other prey animal. Some might be trying to protect the child. [/quote]

No it’s not either of those. I think it’s more along the lines of the dog seeing a single creature that just doesn’t look human.

The last time it happened was when our fence was down and I was in the back yard with the kids playing on the trampoline. The neighbors were with their dog in their yard and their dog was completely ignoring us. If the dog saw my kids as prey animals there were a bunch of little kids running around as perfect prey opportunity. A moment after I picked up my 3 year old daughter who wasn’t squirming or crying, the dog was coming at us barking and growling.

The other two times were while walking around the neighborhood while carrying wakeful babies who were not crying or squirming. Both times the dogs shot out of open front doors while I was walking down the middle of the street. In those two cases, there would have been no way for the dogs to asses (or care) that a child might be in danger. Both times they looked out their door at something walking by and that something just didn’t look right.

40

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Does pepper spray work or does it just piss the animal off? Stun Gun?[/quote]

OC:
The plural of anecdote is not data, but I have heard several accounts and read plenty more of a good, high OC content spray working to deter an aggressive dog. Of course the usual issues with OC still factor in.

Some people/dogs are less susceptible and/or more able to fight through the pain.

You need to put the spray where it has the most effect.

Range and wind matter quite a bit. If you are too close to the target you may get a significant amount of “splash” and wind up also diminishing your vision/breathing.

My take is using pepper spray is definitely better than only having finger nails and bad language if you are trying to deter a dog/person whom you have valid reason to believe wants to make you dead and/or pregnant. I certainly wouldn’t rely on it to be a magic bullet, but it may deter some and causing pain, watering eyes, and disrupting breathing are usually good things to do to someone or something you are fighting with. All that said I don’t carry pepper spray myself, some of the LEO’s on the board would likely have better input.

“Stun Gun”

There is video of actual Tasers being effective against charging dogs, and also failing. This is also par for their performance on people. Keep in mind real tasers allow for use at range so just like pepper spray those options keep you from needing to be in make out distance with something that wants to put holes in you.

If by Stun Gun you mean the hand held, contact range, self defense weapons I would be more cynical. Using those requires getting close enough to hold the business end of the device on the target. Unlike in the movies (I’m talking to you Girl with the Dragon Tattoo) the effect of the shock is often short lived, really just seconds, and the target may take offense or not be completely deterred. There is ample history of the police needing to tase someone multiple times in order to gain compliance. That is a person who is capable of understanding the “Don’t resist, don’t ride the lightning” message. I am sure an actual cattle prod would be useful, due to both voltage/range and ability to use the damn thing as a club if need be, but the electric razor sized stun guns don’t blow my skirt up at all. Really, if I find a situation to sufficiently bad that I am employing weapons I want either range, or the ability to do real damage.

I will also point out that legality can be an issue for private sector folks depending on taser vs stun gun vs OC spray. If you don’t want to be rolling dirty please check your state and local laws.

Personally, I tend to ask the “what does carrying this buy me” question a lot, since I am a civilian and wearing a bat belt with OC/Taser/other widgets is just not in the cards. A small flashlight and knife are both useful often for routine functions. Plenty of folks like small OC cannisters. I have pistols the same size or smaller than stun guns or tasers.

I am hoping some of the LEO’s on this board can chime in and correct any mistakes in the above and just give a more expert answer. I hope the above helped if only as a place holder/bump.

Regards,

Robert A