I am about to start my 2nd test e/tren para cycle this week. I will run 14 weeks of test e 250mg and tren para 76.5mg both 2x weekly. I have adex here and will take .5 - 2mg per week adjusting according to estrogen sides. I know when my estrogen is high because I get really bad acne.
Now the question is to use HCG or not? 250mg 2x weekly? or a big burst after 6 weeks then again at 14 weeks to get nuts back working? My problem with HCG is the T → E2 inside the testes. Am I right in saying that adex will not lower this estrogen caused by HCG? If so, what do people do to lower the HCG induced T → E2 in the testes if adex does not work? I get bad estrogen sides so I really need to plan what I will do about this before I start
I will need to use HCG somehwere during my cycle, before PCT. So maybe using small amounts throughout the cycle instead of big bursts of HCG towards the end will not give me as much T-> E2. I just find it fked up that I may get estrogen sides that I can not do anything about it with adex.
is this recommended? i was always told to cycle/pct properly with adex/nolva/hcg to prevent long-term damage especially with fertility. can i get away with not using hcg at all? after about 7 weeks into my last cycle my balls nearly disappeared they were that small and after 2 weeks of HCG they were a lot better (although acne followed because of high estrogen).
i’m just wondering what others do about HCG induced t → e2… does nolva block estrogen receptors in the testes like it does in the chest for gyno?
HCG has just somewhat recently become a big thing. It’s by no means considered a mandatory thing like using nolva for pct.
I think it has great benefits for certain medical situations and for some guys on trt but for cycling I think it’s completely unnecessary and just adds to potential problems. Using hcg isn’t going to chnage your recovery success anymore then not using it.
Nothing is going to change the hcg from aromoatizing a SERM like nolva will block it from causing gyno but there isn’t anything that will actually bring the estrogen down from hcg use.
Acne isn’t necessarily directly related to high estrogen. It’s generally due more to a imbalance. So ys if your E2 elevates quickly it can cause acne but at the same time suppose your decrease your estrogen rapidly this can also cause an imbalance leading to acne.
Your using tren tho which is ridiculously androgenic so there is a good chance your going to get acne regardless of what level your hormones are at. This is why I Said using acne to determine elevated E2 is not a good idea. I def think when on a tren cycle it’s important to keep your E2 within range but this needs to be determined thru blood work not guessing. It’s also important to take proper steps to manage your prolactin with drugs like P5P, prami, and caber.
thanks again. good info! regarding SERMs vs AI during cycle, I seen ‘shadow pro’ recommending in his thread to use small amounts of nolva instead of an AI on cycle (like 10mg EOD) then bumping it up to 40/20/20/10 or whatever for PCT. I understand that nolva won’t bring estrogen levels down and that is what AIs are for, but am I correct saying that your estrogen level will not rise while taking nolva? or why does he recommend nolva over and AI during cycle?
i will be using 200~300mg of b6 ED for the prolactin, if this does not work i will grab some caber. Although I am using a pretty lowish dose of tren IMO so hopefully prolactin doesn’t get out of hand
I personally like HCG, but I’m also on TRT. For you, with a small amount just to keep you from having grapenuts in your pants, the e2 conversion should not be enough to warrant much concern. But as Zeek said, you can absolutely just skip it and be fine.
Nolva will have no direct inpact on your levels they will still rise and fall as normal. There is numerous reasons why people reccomend not to use an AI. Having high estrogen isn’t necessarily a bad thing unless your getting gyno which is what the SERM is for.
Altho when it comes to tren my personal belief is its a good idea to keep estrogen in range I think it help prevents the rise of prolactin issues and helps reduce tren sides. At your test dose tho your E2 might not even climb out of range. Everyone is different.
The reccomended b6 dose is 300mg x2 daily. Altho I don’t like the idea of this. Your essentially over dosing on vitamin b6 to help keep prolactin in range. This can have some severe side effects for some. I would suggest using P5P it’s activated B6 150-200mg a day will accomplish the same thing without the possible sides that come with crazy b6 doses. You can get quality P5P off Amazon. Your tren dose is mild so this may be fine it just depends. Iv had people tell me they ran numerous tren cycles at the same dose then one time they suddenly needed caber at the same dose they had been using in the past. I would suggest having the caber on hand just in case.
Im running around 400mg/week of ace right now and have had no issues with prolactin or atleast none that are obvious. I’m only using p5p but I will be getting bloods tested in about a week (4th week mark) to see where my levels stand and if necessary will introduce caber at 0.25mg/2 week
thanks for the reply man. surely as little as 250mg HCG once a week wouldn’t give a lot of e2 conversion? would 250mg per week be enough to keep testes stimulated? i suppose it’s better than not taking it at all
cheers man. i will get some P5P, i can get caber fast enough too if things get fked up. i might try get bloods done every 4 weeks but i have a feeling once my GP hears steroids he won’t wanna know haha
I use my primary for most of my blood but he knows I’m on gear and nothing he says will change my mind so he rather help me stay safe lol.
Iron had a good point that conversion probably won’t affect you that much but as far as the “better then not Taking it” I don’t think that’s true. I dont think the difference is substantial enough to make that statement true for its use on a cycle basis. My main reason for not using it is I’m big on the unless it’s necessary or greatly beneficial I’m not doing it. Altho I’m starting trt after this cycle so there is a good chance I might find in the future I use it for trt reasons.
I don’t want to make the same mistake I did on last cycle. Taking a huge amount of hcg in a short space of time did the job for restoring my testes but it also created a huge spike of T - > e2 in the testes, and adex does not lower that apparently. I will try lower amounts throughout the cycle this time as recommended by @iron_yuppie
I don’t know what you consider a huge amount is.
I take 800iu of HCG per week and have for the last 5 years. I love the stuff. Anastrozole reduces your total E2 you don’t give a fuck where you E2 is made an AI will reduce your overall and that is all you care about.
@monstermmorpg cheers mate. Will try around the same dosage of hcg and adex and see how I get on. Were you on test/tren?
@hrdlvn thanks for the info bud. When I said I didn’t think adex deals with t->e2 in the testes from hcg I was only quoting information I got from the stickies on this forum. I remember KSman saying to be careful with hcg dosage because adex will not be able to reduce the estrogen it causes in the testes. But its great if what you are saying is true
This is also my understanding. Iv seen blood work from people on ridiculous adex dosages taking hcg with E2 in the 30-40s when it should be single digits. This leads me to believe an AI will not effect to aromoatization of hcg
Which is the main reason I suggest not using hcg with tren. I believe high E2 causes many tren sides to be exasperated and can increase prolactin issues
@zeek1414 yeah I’m leaning more towards not taking the hcg at all now, doesn’t seem to be worth the hassle with e2 sides as you mentioned.
I just can’t get my head around it. The hcg induced t - > e2 in the testes counts towards your overall estrogen count in your body, adex lowers overall estrogen but doesn’t lower the estrogen caused by the hcg
Am I right in saying the estrogen caused by the hcg in the testes gives same sides as overall high e2 does?
You will not get e2 side effects with a reasonable dose of hcg. Period. If you run it like a maniac then you’ll turn yourself into Caitlyn Jenner. But 500 twice a week? Really shouldn’t be an issue at all.
