How to Deal with Doubt

Bigger Stronger Leaner Jim Wendler 5/3/1 Coaching
1

Just like to say I fully believe in the program (5/3/1 vanilla with BBB) and I have thoroughly enjoyed my first week… However, I’m burdened by the attitudes held by many people. Namely that I’m still a beginner and my lifts are rubbish and I could progress further with LP and make faster strength gains. Here are my 5RM’s (as in I actually hit these for at least 1 set - in the case of the DL anyway - for 5 reps) when I was still pursuing a LP program:

Squat: 95kg
Bench: 65kg
Deadlift: 140kg
Military Press: 51kg

In response to my log elsewhere, and taking a look at my numbers, an individual wrote:

[quote]"5/3/1 is okay for intermediates as well, the problem is you have the lifts of a complete beginner. If you haven’t been making progress with a more beginner oriented program, then you’re doing something wrong and more advanced periodization isn’t the answer. As a beginner, you should be experiencing linear, rapid gains until you are at an intermediate strength. Then you do something like 5/3/1 if strength is still your focus to overcome the inevitable stalls now that linear gains are no longer there.

Like so many before you, you’ve convinced yourself that you are special and can do a program that’s not optimal for you because you understand it better than others. It’s not true and it’s reflected in your progress.

Why not just do something like 3x5 or 5x5 with compounds lifts, adding in other muscle groups or rep schemes as you like. Not necessarily SL or SS, I think the latter is disproportionately focused on squats and discourages other good lifts early on. You could even do HST and get better hypertrophy/strength than this current programming, even if it’s not at the same pace as the starter programs.

Wendler also offers a beginner’s modification suited to a more linear and fullbody focus Official Website | Jim Wendler - Elite Powerlifter & Strength Coach but I’m going to presume he wrote that to put an end to all the ‘I haven’t been lifting as long as I should have but I still want to do your program’ posts.

If you consider 5lbs a month on upper body lifts as linear gains, then virtually everyone experiences linear gains. To me that sounds like stagnation with the occasional step, hardly resembling a line. Again, an absolute personal decision that no one can judge you for, but then it’s again wrong to say you were ‘close to exhausting your noob gains.’ You weren’t, you simply stalled."
[/quote]

How do I deal with stuff like this? I chose 5/3/1 because I’d been lifting the way other people wanted for close to a year and following 6 weeks of an LP “SS” style template I was simply grinding through workouts and feeling miserable, not to mention the complete absence of any hypertrophy gains.

I can understand the benefit of doing aggressive new 5RM per session LP with rank beginners (completely untrained) and getting them far along before switching to 5/3/1, but this simply wasn’t me. In the benefit of hindsight, had I known how LP programs actually work, I would have started with an empty bar and a caloric surplus and done it. This didn’t happen…

I guess I’m looking for some wisdom. I’m currently unhappy with how I look (~85kg on a good day at 6’1) and I’m bulking (4-4500 cals a day) whilst running (just completed my first week) 5/3/1 with BBB (which I’m loving thus far). I’d like to continue getting stronger, but the hypertrophy template options included with 5/3/1 are second to none.

Am I doing the right thing, what more could I do to convince myself of this, and how do I dissuade the doubt created by these “milk the LP” proponents?

Also, has anybody else found themselves in a similar situation to me? How did you deal with it and what kinds of progress have you made running 5/3/1?

2

I think you can progress as fast on 5/3/1 as any other program. Just because you only move the TM up once a month does not mean that you cannot get stronger each week. If you are pushing on the PR set will not matter if the weight is not actually your 5RM. That’s what is great about 5/3/1 you do not need the weights exact just set PRs and you will get strong.

Plus you say you are enjoying 5/3/1 but were not enjoying SS. In my experience if you are motivated and enjoying your training you will get results.

3

First. His last paragraph reflects someone that does not truly understand the progression of 5/3/1 and putting to much emphasis on linear progression. I know there have been a few discussions on that subject, so feel free to look it up. I believe Lonnie was in that discussion.

Second. Who gives a crap what other people think. I go to the gym to work out and because I love it. I love 5/3/1 for the simplicity and the fact that I progress with zero pain (at 48, that is a very good thing). Are you planning on competing (bb or powerlifting)? If yes, get on a program, get a coach, whatever. The first competition is about learning. And you will do most of your learning in the gym and at the competition.

What is the worst case scenario if you don’t “milk” your noob gains or LP? Yeah, I thought so.

It is a life long sport. People need to stop thinking in such a short time frame.

Do what is right for you…

And for he love of everything, enjoy the ride. It’s bumpy, but damn, it’s fun.

4

IMO, while I do agree that no one is special I’ve found everyone responds different to training. Some people can drive their squat up to 400lbs on starting strength, others start to top out around 200lbs. Previous athletic experience, pain tolerance, mental drive and the willingness to eat and sleep through the sticking points being big contributors in my limited experimentation with LP on others.

You’re obviously going to get a lot of support for 5/3/1 on this particular forum and I’ll add to it. While I do like LP I’ve found there’s no real requirement to squeeze every last ounce out of it, particularly if someone isn’t fully mentally committed to it. I’ve had better results by getting people to achieve a moderate amount of progress from LP and transitioning to 5/3/1 long before they stall and/or burn-out.

While it’s true that LP may get you further, faster… in 10 years no one is going to give a shit how much progress you made in May 2014.

5

Thanks to everybody who has replied thus far. I read both 5/3/1 and Beyond 5/3/1 before deciding to adopt that program. I also read several other books by various S&C coaches including Mark Rippetoe, Bill Starr, Brandon Lilly, and even Jim Schmitz (I have something of a very very basic grounding in Oly Lifting, but it isn’t for me) before settling on 5/3/1, why?

Jim kind of spoke to me in a language I could relate to, I know that may sound crazy, but it actually re-motivated me following 6 miserable weeks of a grind on an LP style program and gave me an insight into training I’d never really had before. It’s difficult to explain, but I went into the gym this past Monday with a renewed sense of belief in myself and really enjoyed the first week.

I’m feeling tender today from a week of 5/3/1 with BBB, but I love the feeling, I love the possibility of setting new PR’s every single week and I love Jim’s idea of flexibility and doing some days by feel. After all, it’s not like you can plan to have an incredible PR busting session, it just kinda happens!

6

[quote]some_dude wrote:
While it’s true that LP may get you further, faster… in 10 years no one is going to give a shit how much progress you made in May 2014.[/quote]

Exactly. The only person that you are competing against is yourself. Sure, I want be strong and look good, but I have only my own standards by which these goals are met.

Also, I’d rather never stall (or at least infrequently, which 5/3/1 is designed for) and keep to a training max and be able to rep within 5-10lbs of a recent 5RM for more than 5 reps on a continual basis rather than excessively grind to add weight and create new 5RM’s every session (something which works in the beginning, sure, but I’ve failed to be able to achieve in recent times).

One thing that the book or any of the articles I’ve read haven’t answered is whether at some point, if I’m just killing it on AMRAP’s and finding the preceding sets too easy, that I can attempt to set new 1RM’s and then restart 5/3/1 based on a TM of these 1RM’s? Surely that makes sense in the scenario I’ve described above?

7

[quote]I_Bleed_Green wrote:

One thing that the book or any of the articles I’ve read haven’t answered is whether at some point, if I’m just killing it on AMRAP’s and finding the preceding sets too easy, that I can attempt to set new 1RM’s and then restart 5/3/1 based on a TM of these 1RM’s? Surely that makes sense in the scenario I’ve described above?[/quote]

Jim discourages that. The idea is to use sub-maximal weights to drive strength development. Over time your TM will become more and more divorced from your actual max… and this is fine. So long as you continue to get stronger the system is working. Think long term, multi-year development.

Additionally, the current recommendation is to cap the + reps at 10 (some people have chosen to cap deadlifts at 5).

Lastly, there’s a protocol called 5/3. The idea behind 5/3 is to progress for 5 months, then reset your TM to month 3 weight and work back up for 5 more months again. I like this idea because I never want to admit I need to reset and it keeps me from driving myself into failure trying to sustain progression.

8

[quote]some_dude wrote:

[quote]I_Bleed_Green wrote:

One thing that the book or any of the articles I’ve read haven’t answered is whether at some point, if I’m just killing it on AMRAP’s and finding the preceding sets too easy, that I can attempt to set new 1RM’s and then restart 5/3/1 based on a TM of these 1RM’s? Surely that makes sense in the scenario I’ve described above?[/quote]

Jim discourages that. The idea is to use sub-maximal weights to drive strength development. Over time your TM will become more and more divorced from your actual max… and this is fine. So long as you continue to get stronger the system is working. Think long term, multi-year development.

Additionally, the current recommendation is to cap the + reps at 10 (some people have chosen to cap deadlifts at 5).

Lastly, there’s a protocol called 5/3. The idea behind 5/3 is to progress for 5 months, then reset your TM to month 3 weight and work back up for 5 more months again. I like this idea because I never want to admit I need to reset and it keeps me from driving myself into failure trying to sustain progression.[/quote]

Ahh, I get you now!

Just out of curiosity, when you first started running the program, where were you at strength wise? What were your initial goals, and is there anything in particular you found that I should be aware of in the first cycle?

9

This is simple. One could be doing the most badass, most sport specific, most tuned for their leverages, most complete, thought out, Created by the Almighty Himself, Training plan and IF the user didn’t believe in it it would NOT WORK worth a crap. Why, because they would be doing it 1/2 ass!

to quote Ice Cube, “Do yo thang man, fuck what they lookin at”… lol

get after it and HAVE FUN!!!

10

[quote]some_dude wrote:

[quote]I_Bleed_Green wrote:

One thing that the book or any of the articles I’ve read haven’t answered is whether at some point, if I’m just killing it on AMRAP’s and finding the preceding sets too easy, that I can attempt to set new 1RM’s and then restart 5/3/1 based on a TM of these 1RM’s? Surely that makes sense in the scenario I’ve described above?[/quote]

Jim discourages that. The idea is to use sub-maximal weights to drive strength development. Over time your TM will become more and more divorced from your actual max… and this is fine. So long as you continue to get stronger the system is working. Think long term, multi-year development.

Additionally, the current recommendation is to cap the + reps at 10 (some people have chosen to cap deadlifts at 5).[/quote]
OP, have you heard of Joker Sets? I will not go into details because they’re explained in “Beyond 5/3/1” (the book), but with them you will NOT need to change your TM in order to hit heavier weights when feeling strong.

11

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
This is simple. One could be doing the most badass, most sport specific, most tuned for their leverages, most complete, thought out, Created by the Almighty Himself, Training plan and IF the user didn’t believe in it it would NOT WORK worth a crap. Why, because they would be doing it 1/2 ass!

to quote Ice Cube, “Do yo thang man, fuck what they lookin at”… lol

get after it and HAVE FUN!!![/quote]

That’s the kind of motivation I need to hear! I’ve given it my absolute best thus far and I’ve really enjoyed myself. I have no doubts about it from a “program I’ll give my all to” sense.

[quote]fabiop wrote:
OP, have you heard of Joker Sets? I will not go into details because they’re explained in “Beyond 5/3/1” (the book), but with them, you will NOT need to change your TM, in order to hit heavier weights when feeling strong.
[/quote]

I have, I own a copy of Beyond too, but I’m not entirely sure how I would incorporate them, apart from the idea that you begin by adding 5% weight to your AMRAP set. Could anyone give me an example of how I might choose to incorporate joker sets?

12

[quote]I_Bleed_Green wrote:

Ahh, I get you now!

Just out of curiosity, when you first started running the program, where were you at strength wise? What were your initial goals, and is there anything in particular you found that I should be aware of in the first cycle?[/quote]

When I started 5/3/1 (in lbs)

Squat 355x5/375x3
Bench 200x5
Deadlift 355x5
Press 145x5

My goal was to get stronger. I was 34, had deconditioned over a period of 6 years and was using strength training to rehab myself.

Below is what I wrote in my training log after my first cycle. I did the Boring But Big 3 Month Challenge here off T-Nation.

  • Donâ??t judge the program based on how easy week 1 is.

  • 5/3/1+BBB has significantly improved both my lifting endurance and recovery time between sets. Iâ??ve gone from 3+ minute rests on heavy working sets to about 1.5-2 minutes. Additionally, I thought I was going to die the first time I did the 5Ã??10 deadlifts, but after a few weeks Iâ??m doing them with no real issues (1 min rest between sets).

  • Jumping rope is a great whole body warmup tool.

  • Thanks to all the super-sets and high volume my tonnage lifted per session has doubled (vs Starting Strength) while taking half the time to complete. This is producing an obvious increase in my overall athletic performance at the cost of the extremely fast rate of progression that SS offered. I think this trade off is acceptable since being able to squat 200lbs 50 times in 10 minutes is probably more useful than being able to squat 400lbs 15 times in 15 minutes.

  • That said, I will continue to recommend to anyone whoâ??s just starting a program like Starting Strength to get their base level strength built because I feel having decent starting lifts will make a program like 5/3/1 more effective (lets face it, using 5/3/1 and taking three weeks to progress your 90lb bench press to 100lbs would be kind of silly for most people).

  • I like the motivational factor of constantly making/breaking rep records.

  • I like that I can do this program and progress without feeling like Iâ??m totally destroyed after every single workout.

What I’ll add to this as someone who’s been doing 5/3/1 for awhile now is don’t get hung up on the numbers. I used to dread deloads and resets because I’d worked so hard to move forward that I didn’t want to go back. Now I look at deloads/resets as something I’ve earned the right to enjoy. I’ve busted my balls for the last weeks/months and now is my chance to kick back and enjoy the fruits of my labour. I don’t need to constantly pound myself into the ground to obtain results. Lots of people work harder than me in the gym, but 3 months later they’re burnt out and frustrated… chances are they’ll “take a week off” and I’ll never see them again.

Strength is a multi-year process…

13

[quote]I_Bleed_Green wrote:
Could anyone give me an example of how I might choose to incorporate joker sets?
[/quote]

easy, say you worked up to 100kg for 9 reps on your “+” set. After which you are feeling like you want to take more weight for a ride. Just do 105-110kg for the reps for the week. still feeling like a bad ass, do a set of 110-115kg for reps, etc.

edit -ok so the KG thing is messing with me. after your “+” set add 5-10% and do reps. They are called Jokers because they are wild card sets, anything goes, to a large degree. I’m fond of triples as jokers, regardless of the week I’m in. Some like singles, doubles whatever. I may be wrong but I don’t really think there’s a wrong answer here. Just get reps in.

14

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]I_Bleed_Green wrote:
Could anyone give me an example of how I might choose to incorporate joker sets?
[/quote]

easy, say you worked up to 100kg for 9 reps on your “+” set. After which you are feeling like you want to take more weight for a ride. Just do 105-110kg for the reps for the week. still feeling like a bad ass, do a set of 110-115kg for reps, etc.

edit -ok so the KG thing is messing with me. after your “+” set add 5-10% and do reps. They are called Jokers because they are wild card sets, anything goes, to a large degree. I’m fond of triples as jokers, regardless of the week I’m in. Some like singles, doubles whatever. I may be wrong but I don’t really think there’s a wrong answer here. Just get reps in. [/quote]

Sweet! Thanks for the explanation, don’t worry about using lbs either, I’m attuned to both, I just use KG as it’s how everything is setup in my gym.

15

There are no gym police out there monitoring what you do. Try it and see what happens. Unless the weights are too heavy (one of the main rules is to start too light - I see you got that part) or your form isn’t dialed, it won’t hurt a bit - and in the case of those two things - if the weight is too heavy or your form sucks you are headed for trouble anyway - no matter the program. Give 5-3-1 a few cycles and see if you like it or you respond well.

Warning - RANT
…I stop surfing periodically when I read too many people acting like this is brain surgery and someone might die if they make a wrong move. Brain surgeons have a reason to stress - but this stuff??? Since we are all different, there will always be some degree of difference in our responses. View it as an experiment and not life or death and you will enjoy it a lot more.

One other thing, I read and heard for years you had to bench X amount of weight to use dynamic effort w/bands. In 2005 I could bench 165lbs. But the bands looked cool and they got me excited. I went in and set up using 95 freakin pounds with doubled minis! What a joke I was. I recently pushed 320 raw. Not exactly Jim Wendler, but not 165 either.

Now, I see the logic. My point is - experimenting and throwing caution to the wind paid handsomely- if I had listened to the prevailing opinion, would I have improved? Who knows. But ALOT of days I set PRs after warming up with with that pathetic 95, 115, 135 on the bar against those minis, getting fast, and then destroying the attempt. People on this site would have said stupid shit like, “just get stronger before you add bands, etc…” Or my all time favorite…" To get a better squat, squat more." Right, so I can reinforce crappy form and being weak. Brilliant logic.

16

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]I_Bleed_Green wrote:
Could anyone give me an example of how I might choose to incorporate joker sets?
[/quote]

easy, say you worked up to 100kg for 9 reps on your “+” set. After which you are feeling like you want to take more weight for a ride. Just do 105-110kg for the reps for the week. still feeling like a bad ass, do a set of 110-115kg for reps, etc.

edit -ok so the KG thing is messing with me. after your “+” set add 5-10% and do reps. They are called Jokers because they are wild card sets, anything goes, to a large degree. I’m fond of triples as jokers, regardless of the week I’m in. Some like singles, doubles whatever. I may be wrong but I don’t really think there’s a wrong answer here. Just get reps in. [/quote]

As a matter of personal preference, I like sticking with the rep number of the week I’m in:

  • 65% x 5
  • 75% x 5
  • 85% AMRAP (you may want to cap at 10); go for your first joker set
  • 95% x 5; if the fifth rep felt smooth, go for another joker set
  • 100% x 5; again, if form on fifth rep was solid, I go for one more
  • 105% x 3…well, that third rep was a grind, so you stop this joker set, and you’re done for that day (unless you’re going for First Set Last)
17

[/quote]

Am I doing the right thing, what more could I do to convince myself of this, and how do I dissuade the doubt created by these “milk the LP” proponents?

Also, has anybody else found themselves in a similar situation to me? How did you deal with it and what kinds of progress have you made running 5/3/1?

[/quote]
I know this is an old thread, but this was my experience with SS. Though my lifts were higher than yours when I finally switched programs, I would have served myself better by switching programs earlier. I went up and down, resetting many many times, sometimes because I thought my form was not right, sometimes a straight 10% reset. The problems for me came in the form of injuries, squatting 3 times a week at max levels led to hip and back problems for me, and some shoulder as well. 531 allows for less volume if you feel you need it, and on better days hit Joker sets, 5x10, FSL or many other options for volume.

I got brainwashed by that “milk the LP” shit too, if I could go back, I would have started 531 earlier.

18

OP, how do you deal with people who spend more time bitching about your program while they should be training? Thank them for their opinion and tell them to shut the fuck up. Not everyone can progress on a linear periodization for long and people that think SS is for everyone are tiring. If you want to take your time and do 5/3/1 by all means do it. You can only get stronger and by focusing on the long term rather than the short term you will be progressing why that mouth breathing loser is still telling people they didn’t milk their novice gains long enough.

Off of my soap box. Listen man if you aren’t happy with how you look just remember if you train hard and eat right the look you want will come. There is no magical formula, supplement or training program that can replace hardwork and determination. If you want to gain weight eat more and more specifically try to get as many calories in liquid form as you can. If you want to lose fat eat whole foods, cut out the junk and do more cardio. Really, I want to wish you good luck and want you know that you are on the right path man just give it time.

19

[quote]factsaboutrats wrote:
[/quote]

Am I doing the right thing, what more could I do to convince myself of this, and how do I dissuade the doubt created by these “milk the LP” proponents?

Also, has anybody else found themselves in a similar situation to me? How did you deal with it and what kinds of progress have you made running 5/3/1?

[/quote]
I know this is an old thread, but this was my experience with SS. Though my lifts were higher than yours when I finally switched programs, I would have served myself better by switching programs earlier. I went up and down, resetting many many times, sometimes because I thought my form was not right, sometimes a straight 10% reset. The problems for me came in the form of injuries, squatting 3 times a week at max levels led to hip and back problems for me, and some shoulder as well. 531 allows for less volume if you feel you need it, and on better days hit Joker sets, 5x10, FSL or many other options for volume.

I got brainwashed by that “milk the LP” shit too, if I could go back, I would have started 531 earlier. [/quote]

Dude I agree completely I tried to LP twice and just kept getting hurt. Too much, too soon, and no real breaks and it’s physically and mentally draining.

20

Didn’t read everybody else but here’s my thought on it. Why are you listening to all these other people in the first place? You wanted to try 5/3/1, so do it. Don’t just “do it”, commit yourself to following it as Jim outlines, work hard every training session, and eat right. Either you believe in it or you don’t. If you don’t believe in it and you’d rather listen to the critics and online “experts”, then don’t do it. Otherwise, ignore them and follow a training method that is rather awesome.

Don’t get caught up in all the BS about linear periodization versus block periodization, versus waved, undulating, etc. Find something you can commit to and do it; let the haters hate and “experts” theorize based on their extensive “knowledge.”

You must not have read everything because in Beyond Jim wrote about “Joker” sets, which allows you to move some heavier weight if you feel you need to.