How Much More Weight?

[quote]hardgnr wrote:
I would guess myself to be somewhere around 20% and I still have way more shape. At this bf% you will still see the shape of your muscles. I really didn’t see anything that convinced me you lift in those pictures.
[/quote]

That’s a bit harsh. He seems like he has more mass on his back (especially), chest and arms than you’d see on a non-lifter. Hidden by body fat yes, but visible.

[quote]1morerep wrote:
Der Candy wrote:
It will be much more rewarding, imo, if you get that bench up to at least 3 plates a side for reps (and have the resulting mass)before considering stepping on stage.

deanosumo wrote: A lot.
20% bf and you are only 200 pounds…even in a natural show you would struggle. And if it is your first time to diet down, you will probably not do it optimally and you will lose a lot of muscle in the process, unless you do gear, in which case you won’t lose a lot.

i disagree with both of these statements. too many people are overly concerned and influenced by numbers whether it be body weight, lifting stats, bf %, measurements, etc. what really counts is how you look. i’ve seen so many guys who outweigh me and out lift me but they don’t look anything like me.

you can stand me next to a guy who’s my height (5’7), and say 175-180 lbs at 9% bf and can bench 315 for reps. in my best form, i was only 160 lbs at 9% bf. i can’t even bench 315 once. do you think you can automatically figure out who has the higher numbers just by looking at us?

i’ll bet that in the majority of cases, you can’t. if i were ever to compete, i’d probably have to trim down close to 150 lbs! on paper, that’s not very impressive.

if i were to post here anonymously, sans pic, and say, “hey guys, i’m going to do my first show. i’m 5’7, 152 lbs at 4% bf. got any useful tips”? do you know the flaming i would get?!? what are u nuts??

get your ass back in the gym and gain some weight! but with my particular body type and full muscle shape, i’d be able to go at it with guys outweighing me by quite a bit so don’t be obsessed with numbers!

numbers are very useful…don’t get me wrong. they are an excellent guide to keeping track of progress (or lack there of). but the numbers themselves, or what they represent are meaningless. i’ve seen many guys benching 315 for reps and i swear you can hardly tell they work out.

i seriously suggest you start dieting down asap. when you get yourself under 10% bf, have some pictures taken and give yourself a hard, objective critique.

do you need more size to make a dent in a show? maybe…maybe not at this point. you may look huge! or you may look like a skinny fitness model. it’s your body type…how you ultimately look on stage and not the actual numbers that will make or break your success.
[/quote]

You make some sense 1morerep, but Zephead isn’t you. He is 20%bf and has been lifting for one year. More than likely, if he dieted down to enter a show, there would be nothing to show.

Sorry zep nothing personal, but it seems you have been honest about your numbers, and they aren’t impressive. Not that you can’t get there. And 1morerep you are right, numbers aren’t everything, and how much you can bench is not part of a physique competition. But if you think there is no correlation between how much you can lift and how you look, you are deluded.

And as for bodyweight- well, at Zep’s calculations, 200 pounds minus 20% bf equals 160 pounds lean mass, but as any bber knows, it doesn’t work out that way. He will lose muscle as well on the way down. Do you think he can step onstage at 140 something pounds at 5’9"? This is bodybuilding. Not the anorexia league.

I do agree with get your bf down to a level around 10% or where you can see your abs, then make a decision from there.

One reason why I am posting again on this topic is, when I was about 20 I felt the same way. I was going to enter a competition within a year. But I was deluded. I hadn’t put in the time under the iron and I hadn’t built any quality mass yet.

Good luck Zep but ask yourself- do I really look like a bber yet?

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
1morerep you are right, numbers aren’t everything, and how much you can bench is not part of a physique competition. But if you think there is no correlation between how much you can lift and how you look, you are deluded. [/quote]

ok i must address this - my post was mainly a rant towards the two posts i quoted. i didn’t even look at zep’s pics! i wasn’t aware of just how much work he still needs to do. i was just stating things in general in regard to people’s obsession with numbers.

so i must agree that even if zep dieted down to leanness, he would still lack the necessary development and muscle maturity needed to make an impression on stage. that as we all know takes YEARS.

i’m not putting you down zep. merely making an objective observation. anything worth achieving can only be done with hard work and dedication so keep at it.

now deanosumo…am i really deluded? i didn’t imply there is no correlation at all. but i see time and time again guys moving some pretty impressive weight who aren’t all that big. and many of them, in my opinion, LOOK LIKE SHIT. that was my point.

just because you’re strong doesn’t mean you’re necessarily going to look it. yes many strong guys are also big. but there are also many big guys who aren’t that strong. take a good look around your gym and observe.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Yeah, I agree with most of this. I am not 1MR. Even if I do have a higher bodyfat In those pictures I look like I could weigh 160 pounds. That really irks me, and I want to add more size training into my routine.

I’ve been hitting Prs just about everytime I lift again and I’ve been feeling great, aside from the cold I just got. I really feel like I should keep going until I can’t keep hitting PRs.

As far as dieting down now. I don’t know if I just don’t get it but If I need more muscle before I compete anyways (and I deffinately do) shouldn’t I just keep going while as I’m hitting PRs all the time? I feel like I should prioritize arms chest and lats right now and If I’m making big gains I shouldn’t stop, yet.

I also get the feelign some of the posts where by people who thought I wanted to start show prep right now. Most deffinately not. I am nowhere near that point and am looking at competeing in a teen show as a long-term goal.[/quote]

You might be making plenty of strength gains, and that always feels good, but what about size which appears to be your main goal. Strength training and size training are 2 different things.

This thread confuses me… Aren’t you a powerlifter/strongman type Zep? If it is about looks then your style of lifting should focus more on continuous muscle stimulation vs strength/power gains?

Strength/Power vs Aesthetics do not necessarily go hand in hand from my experience. But applying strength and power when you train for aesthetics on the other hand does work quite well.

There are a lot of great bodybuilders that powerlift in the offseason from bodybuilding, and basically just do powerlifting training in order to gain mass.

Besides the obvious ones like Jackson, here is one that I remembered from ABC that is interested in bodybuilding, powerlifting, and strongman:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/yumonindex.php

(check out the stats, and training/diet pdf’s)

[quote]1morerep wrote:

just because you’re strong doesn’t mean you’re necessarily going to look it. yes many strong guys are also big. but there are also many big guys who aren’t that strong. take a good look around your gym and observe. [/quote]

I have and I have yet to see these really strong yet tiny guys. Usually, if there is 405lbs on the bar, the guy lifting it LOOKS like he can lift 405lbs.

What gyms are you all training in where little guys are the strongest people there?

[quote]deanosumo wrote:

Good luck Zep but ask yourself- do I really look like a bber yet?
[/quote]

No, I most deffinately do not! Which is why I want to do a show in two years!

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
deanosumo wrote:

Good luck Zep but ask yourself- do I really look like a bber yet?

No, I most deffinately do not! Which is why I want to do a show in two years![/quote]

That right there is the most backwards logic I have read all day.

Thanks for showing me that there is no hope for the future.

“Hey, baby…you know how we talked about having kids? Yeah…let’s NOT do that.”

[quote]Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
deanosumo wrote:

Good luck Zep but ask yourself- do I really look like a bber yet?

No, I most deffinately do not! Which is why I want to do a show in two years!

That right there is the most backwards logic I have read all day.

Thanks for showing me that there is no hope for the future.

“Hey, baby…you know how we talked about having kids? Yeah…let’s NOT do that.”[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about? I have a long term goal to compete in a teen show. I want to do it when I’m more developed then now, and you see a problem? I most deffinately do not want to diet down for a show with no real muscle to show for it, that would be moronic.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
deanosumo wrote:

Good luck Zep but ask yourself- do I really look like a bber yet?

No, I most deffinately do not! Which is why I want to do a show in two years!

That right there is the most backwards logic I have read all day.

Thanks for showing me that there is no hope for the future.

“Hey, baby…you know how we talked about having kids? Yeah…let’s NOT do that.”

What the hell are you talking about? I have a long term goal to compete in a teen show however, I want to do it when I’m more developed then now, and you see a problem? I most deffinately do not want to diet down for a show with no real muscle to show for it, that would be moronic.
[/quote]

Yes, I see a problem with anyone discussing COMPETITION before they have ever put the time and effort in to effectively change their physique drastically. That is basic “cart before the horse” shit and sounds really cute and HallMark Greeting Card-ish but often does not play out in the real world.

If you had the innate genetics to do so with minimal effort, I could see approaching training with competition as the goal right off the bat. That does NOT make sense when you haven’t even got your foot in the door.

Do you want to know why people are able to gain 4 and 5 inches on their arms? It is because they paid their dues. They realized that they had to work hard for several years and the competition aspect, IF it happens, is the finalizing seal of approval at the end of it that only needs discussion IF the body has been built.

Harsh? Yes. Reality? Definitely.

Put the time in first. Learn to love the effort JUST FOR THE FUCKING EFFORT and you will not burn yourself out. I have literally seen way too many who jumped into it the way you are now who WILL burn themselves out because their focus is on competing before that foundation has been built.

I already know that isn’t what you want to hear. You can save the response.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
1morerep wrote:

just because you’re strong doesn’t mean you’re necessarily going to look it. yes many strong guys are also big. but there are also many big guys who aren’t that strong. take a good look around your gym and observe.

I have and I have yet to see these really strong yet tiny guys. Usually, if there is 405lbs on the bar, the guy lifting it LOOKS like he can lift 405lbs.

What gyms are you all training in where little guys are the strongest people there?[/quote]

X is right, any time I see anyone move 405 on anything, their big. I have seen smaller guys lift decent weight before too though.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Put the time in first. Learn to love the effort JUST FOR THE FUCKING EFFORT and you will not burn yourself out. I have literally seen way too many who jumped into it the way you are now who WILL burn themselves out because their focus is on competing before that foundation has been built.
[/quote]

This is a good point, but there is nothing wrong with a man having goals. If the desire is strong enough, you won’t burn out.
Winners never quit and quitters never win.

[quote]hardgnr wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Put the time in first. Learn to love the effort JUST FOR THE FUCKING EFFORT and you will not burn yourself out. I have literally seen way too many who jumped into it the way you are now who WILL burn themselves out because their focus is on competing before that foundation has been built.

This is a good point, but there is nothing wrong with a man having goals. If the desire is strong enough, you won’t burn out.
Winners never quit and quitters never win.

[/quote]

Winners do what it takes before putting all eggs into one basket. Winners would be well on the way of being big enough to actually WIN before talking about jumping on stage.

Talk is cheap.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
deanosumo wrote:

Good luck Zep but ask yourself- do I really look like a bber yet?

No, I most deffinately do not! Which is why I want to do a show in two years!

That right there is the most backwards logic I have read all day.

Thanks for showing me that there is no hope for the future.

“Hey, baby…you know how we talked about having kids? Yeah…let’s NOT do that.”

What the hell are you talking about? I have a long term goal to compete in a teen show however, I want to do it when I’m more developed then now, and you see a problem? I most deffinately do not want to diet down for a show with no real muscle to show for it, that would be moronic.

Yes, I see a problem with anyone discussing COMPETITION before they have ever put the time and effort in to effectively change their physique drastically. That is basic “cart before the horse” shit and sounds really cute and HallMark Greeting Card-ish but often does not play out in the real world.

If you had the innate genetics to do so with minimal effort, I could see approaching training with competition as the goal right off the bat. That does NOT make sense when you haven’t even got your foot in the door.

Do you want to know why people are able to gain 4 and 5 inches on their arms? It is because they paid their dues. They realized that they had to work hard for several years and the competition aspect, IF it happens, is the finalizing seal of approval at the end of it that only needs discussion IF the body has been built.

Harsh? Yes. Reality? Definitely.

Put the time in first. Learn to love the effort JUST FOR THE FUCKING EFFORT and you will not burn yourself out. I have literally seen way too many who jumped into it the way you are now who WILL burn themselves out because their focus is on competing before that foundation has been built.

I already know that isn’t what you want to hear. You can save the response.[/quote]

Thank you, you believe I don’t have the dedication in the longterm. I’m not even going to argue much with you, but I will say I feel otherwise. I’m not fucking ready to train my hardest now. I’ve been doing it for ages. I couldn’t tell you the last time I didn’t leave the weightoom sweating buckets and quivering from the exertion.

I was in the weightroom today after a long night of throwing up and nasal drip, and I walked away with some prs. I wanted some insight on long term stratagy. If you’re going to shit on me for it, fine. However I’ve had a few people whose opinion I value fiarly highly PM me about this with nothing but encouragement.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
deanosumo wrote:

Good luck Zep but ask yourself- do I really look like a bber yet?

No, I most deffinately do not! Which is why I want to do a show in two years!

That right there is the most backwards logic I have read all day.

Thanks for showing me that there is no hope for the future.

“Hey, baby…you know how we talked about having kids? Yeah…let’s NOT do that.”

What the hell are you talking about? I have a long term goal to compete in a teen show however, I want to do it when I’m more developed then now, and you see a problem? I most deffinately do not want to diet down for a show with no real muscle to show for it, that would be moronic.

Yes, I see a problem with anyone discussing COMPETITION before they have ever put the time and effort in to effectively change their physique drastically. That is basic “cart before the horse” shit and sounds really cute and HallMark Greeting Card-ish but often does not play out in the real world.

If you had the innate genetics to do so with minimal effort, I could see approaching training with competition as the goal right off the bat. That does NOT make sense when you haven’t even got your foot in the door.

Do you want to know why people are able to gain 4 and 5 inches on their arms? It is because they paid their dues. They realized that they had to work hard for several years and the competition aspect, IF it happens, is the finalizing seal of approval at the end of it that only needs discussion IF the body has been built.

Harsh? Yes. Reality? Definitely.

Put the time in first. Learn to love the effort JUST FOR THE FUCKING EFFORT and you will not burn yourself out. I have literally seen way too many who jumped into it the way you are now who WILL burn themselves out because their focus is on competing before that foundation has been built.

I already know that isn’t what you want to hear. You can save the response.

Thank you, you believe I don’t have the dedication in the longterm. I’m not even going to argue much with you, but I will say I feel otherwise. I’m not fucking ready to train my hardest now.

I’ve been doing it for ages. I couldn’t tell you the last time I didn’t leave the weightoom sweating buckets and quivering from the exertion. I was in the weightroom today after a long night of throwing up and nasal drip, and I walked away with some prs.

I wanted some insight on long term stratagy. If you’re going to shit on me for it, fine. However I’ve had a few people whose opinion I value fiarly highly PM me about this with nothing but encouragement.[/quote]

Good for them. They are likely the same ones who tell every other newbie who states they are about to compete that they should do so for the experience.

This has jack shit to do with whether I believe you have the dedication in the long term.

It has everything to do with the fact that you have yet to show that you have the dedication in the long term which makes focusing on competition at this stage illogical.

Show your dedication by building yourself up first. Talk about competition at the point that you have.

[quote]hardgnr wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
Yeah, I agree with most of this. I am not 1MR. Even if I do have a higher bodyfat In those pictures I look like I could weigh 160 pounds. That really irks me, and I want to add more size training into my routine.

I’ve been hitting Prs just about everytime I lift again and I’ve been feeling great, aside from the cold I just got. I really feel like I should keep going until I can’t keep hitting PRs.

As far as dieting down now. I don’t know if I just don’t get it but If I need more muscle before I compete anyways (and I deffinately do) shouldn’t I just keep going while as I’m hitting PRs all the time?

I feel like I should prioritize arms chest and lats right now and If I’m making big gains I shouldn’t stop, yet.

I also get the feelign some of the posts where by people who thought I wanted to start show prep right now. Most deffinately not. I am nowhere near that point and am looking at competeing in a teen show as a long-term goal.

You might be making plenty of strength gains, and that always feels good, but what about size which appears to be your main goal. Strength training and size training are 2 different things.[/quote]

every person that any of us would consider big has undergone a large strength gain.

1morerep (because of genetics and selective lifting) looks like he has allot of muscle. But he truly doesn’t have much muscle (no offense, you look good 1morerep) he also doesnt lift very much.

Also, I wouldnt base my plans off someone like 1morerep anyway. Like stated before it is rare to look as big as he does at his weight.

Building strength is one of the absolute best ways to build muscle when done the proper way. there are tons of programs who have got people big that all revolved around gaining strength. Not to mention I dont know any big guys who are weak. I know big guys who now lift light because of injuries, but they got big from lifting heavy.

Saying that strength gain and muscle gain are two completley different things is a crock of shit. All I have ever done is train for strength and I have put on a ton of muscle. If I would have my diet in line I would have put on much more muscle and allot less fat as well.

If you think strength gain and muscle gain aren’t related go tell all the big power lifters, DC lifters, guys who trained with 5x5 progression type programs, max OT training guys, me, and any of the other big guys “who just happen to lift a shit load” that they gained their muscle just by chance.

[quote]kinein wrote:
This thread confuses me… Aren’t you a powerlifter/strongman type Zep? If it is about looks then your style of lifting should focus more on continuous muscle stimulation vs strength/power gains?

Strength/Power vs Aesthetics do not necessarily go hand in hand from my experience. But applying strength and power when you train for aesthetics on the other hand does work quite well. [/quote]

yes they do

take a bodybuilder with a balanced training program to his all his muscle groups

have him double all his lifts while keeping the same reps over a period of 5 years while bulking 100lbs. You dont think this would lead to a extreme gain in muscle mass?

Shoulder press
135x10
185x10
225x10

spend a year bulking 25lbs and getting your shoulder press up to
135x10
225x10
315x10

and guess what, your shoulders are way bigger, and your stronger. There are more ways to increase strength than just training for a 1rm, and you can treat every exercise, especially bodybuilding overexercises, with the same intensity and drive to make gains as you would power lifting exercises. And get this, you can train them in high reps! even multiple sets! amazing right?

you think ronnie coleman would have been as big as he is if he was half his strength?

People are so simple minded when it comes to training, there is either bodybuilding with perfect form exercises and tons of reps and sets (other wise you mine as well not lift because you wont grow)… Or there is power lifting with only singles training with no consideration to aesthetics at all.

[quote]Mega Newb wrote:

every person that any of us would consider big has undergone a large strength gain.

1morerep (because of genetics and selective lifting) looks like he has allot of muscle. But he truly doesn’t have much muscle (no offense, you look good 1morerep) he also doesnt lift very much.

Also, I wouldnt base my plans off someone like 1morerep anyway. Like stated before it is rare to look as big as he does at his weight.

Building strength is one of the absolute best ways to build muscle when done the proper way. there are tons of programs who have got people big that all revolved around gaining strength.

Not to mention I dont know any big guys who are weak. I know big guys who now lift light because of injuries, but they got big from lifting heavy.

Saying that strength gain and muscle gain are two completley different things is a crock of shit. All I have ever done is train for strength and I have put on a ton of muscle. If I would have my diet in line I would have put on much more muscle and allot less fat as well.

If you think strength gain and muscle gain aren’t related go tell all the big power lifters, DC lifters, guys who trained with 5x5 progression type programs, max OT training guys, me, and any of the other big guys “who just happen to lift a shit load” that they gained their muscle just by chance.

[/quote]

Good post. Someone, please point out to me the many 150lbs people who are bench pressing more than 405lbs for several reps (not single half assed attempts) every training session in gyms all across the country.

I train for strength. I eat for size. Strength and size are very much directly related with diet being the largest difference between the two goals.

you really think this kids going to be getting his shoulder press up to 315x10?

anyway…

im kinda split between X and Zep.

on one hand i think its true, 2 years is a very long time away and setting that date in stone is like putting the cart before the horse. and what really needs to be the focus isnt some tentative date, its just putting on mass.

on the other hand i think Zep does have good dedication. do i think that if you really want to compete you will someday? yes, i really think you have the drive if thats what it is you want. the problem is that determination, genetics, and life in general dont always sync up.

i dont think Prof X is trying to be a dick i think he just really gives it straight. its tough love, thats all.

just keep at it though.