T Nation

How Much Longer Should I Milk It?


#1

I've been going back and forth in my mind about starting a cycle for the last few weeks. A little background, I'm 26, seriously lifting for about 5 years now but have played football in high school since 15 so I am not new to the iron game. It helps that I had a great coach who set up a great foundation in high school years. 6'1" and 248 lbs with 17% bodyfat at the moment (I let myself go in the last couple months since me and the wife had a child).

Strength:
Low incline dumbbell 130lbs @ 4x6-8
Squats 485 @ 4x8
Military Press seated 275 @ 4x6-8
Deadlifts (not done)

In terms of diet and training, lack of motivation and willpower was never an issue. I stick to a plan 100% of the time and when I set my mind to it don't ever get off the beaten path. Now my main problem is wondering if I should keep on going with what I got or try to up the stakes a little.

Gains are still coming here and there but I'm at a fork in the road. Obviously I'm the one who is going to make the decision but I love and respect many of the opinions of veterans here at T-Nation and just thought I could pick some brains and discuss it a bit.


#2

You sound like you definitely know what you're doing, at at your age, it wouldn't really hurt you at all. At 26, your hormones are starting to take a turn for the worse. Now would be am optimal time to throw in the secret weapon. Your lifts seem impressive so i say go for it. Just my humble opinion, though :wink:

VF


#3

Someone has to say it: why not deadlift? It will build muscles in places you never knew you had muscles before.


#4

just go for it man but do your research first. its not such a big deal as everyone makes out and you will enjoy it. just make sure you know what to do if something doesnt go to plan by having as much knowledge at your dispoal as possible.


#5

So I have my cycle set up in my mind.
Weeks 1-10
Test E: 500 mg/week
Dianabol: 50mg/day
Deca: 400mg/week

I have the Clomid ready for PCT, and have Arimidex on hand if the need arises. I guess i'll nickname this stack the "meat and potatoes" cycle because if my research is correct this is pretty powerful for putting on quite a bit of mass. Any suggestions from veteran's is more than welcome and in fact greatly asked for. Thanks everyone.

PS: I've been researching this for quite some time, it also helps to have a bachelor's in biochemistry, but I need real life practical tips because obviously the academia/science behind it is not the only important part aside from real life experience. I've found that a lot of people have different opinions about dosing/tapering/side effects so that's basically what I want to improve of knowledge wise.


#6

3 drugs in a first cycle = retarded. Completely unnecessary. And overly risky.

It's been said a thousand times before, but for some reason you think you are the exception. Can you explain why you think that?


#7

The only reason I added in the Dianabol was because someone close to me whose quite experienced did this for their first cycle and said the results were phenomenal. He's a close relative and very experienced with gear. To be honest, I was on the fence about even adding in an oral, my first inclination was to just go with the other two.


#8

My point was that adding DECA in a first cycle is dumb. Much dumber than adding dbol.

Again, youre on a forum where the standard recommendation is test only for a first cycle. Why on earth you make a post deviating from the norm with the only excuse being "well my relative says this is good", is not something I can figure out.

If youve done as much research as you say youve done, and at least 10 minutes worth on this site, youd know that the recommendation for a first cycle is test + ai + pct.

Take care. Im done here. Do what youd like.


#9

I've noticed that there are different schools of thought on this site. Some say just do Test for the first cycle, others say why not just get the most gains you can since the first cycle is where you make the best progress. Clearly it's not enough to just read everyone's opinions on here since its not a unanimous decision.

I trust my relative because he's the only person I know that closely whose been through many cycles and with little to no problems from any of them. I realized that people get very defensive on this very quickly, I could see why the patience runs out quick because some people post ridiculous things.

If you could please just take a minute and let me know why to only do test, is it really going to limit further cycles if adding a secondary or is that just an opinion that you and others closely stick to.
On a side note, i'm very open minded and my mind isn't closed to what I think is right. Please don't behave like many other's here and instantly flame me.


#10

FIrst, where did you read this.

Second, if that was said, was it stated explicitly to use as many drugs as possible? Because surely if the goal is to get the most gains possible using the most (in terms of amount and types) drugs possible will help to achieve that goal.

I highly doubt it. What's more likely is that you misinterpreted the following: Someone says "I want to do test 250mg/wk to start of slow". Reply is "why, 500mg is better with no greater risk in side effects and if youre going to be shutdown you may as well get the most out of it".

All of that dialogue is STILL in the context of a first cycle.

Please show me where people on this site have explicitly recommended multiple drugs for a first cycle.

And your question about why test only for a first cycle has been asnwered so many times it's making my head spin to see someone ask it who claims to have done research.

4 words: Source of side effects

If you dont want to get flamed then all you need to do is type into the search bar 'first cycle' and read the thousands of threads on the topic.

I know for a fact that dozens of people come to this forum, read, and then do their first, second, and third cycles without ever making a single post. This stuff is not complicated until you become very advanced. And on top of it you have a biochem degree, so you cant exactly play the moron card.

Good luck.


#11

This is to quote Furiousgeorge from the newbie cycle planning stickie:

"This is an ideal first cycle for everyone or at least a base to build on:

(NOTE - W X-Y means start of week X to end of week Y)

Cycle Plan
W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week)

This would be an example of a camp number 2 keep it simple cycle. You don't really need to get more complicated than this but if you want to below are some typical inclusions for a first cycle...

Optional secondary additions
W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/d if you want an oral kickstart or just a little something extra thrown in mid cycle when your test is kicking in (seems most lately are going with the latter)
W 1-8 Deca 300mg/w if you want some additional bulking help
W 1-8 Tren Enth 150mg E3D if you want additional strength help
W 6-12 Proviron 25mg 2x/d if you want some help with libido

Optional Ancilliaries
W 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms (itchy/tender nipples) start to show
W 1-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w if you are having prolactin issues (difficulty getting an erection when on tren or deca)
W 3-10 HCG 250iu 3x/w if you want to prevent your nuts from shrinking and make recovery easier"

He clearly leaves the option of adding some secondaries and states that there are different schools of thought. As I said I know quite a bit of mechanism of action and side effects of secondary additions like Deca/Eq/Masteron. What I basically wanted from asking a question about my suggested cycle is would it be worth the side effect chance when balanced against the gains possible.


#12

And just one side note, I have noticed generally that Test only as a first cycle is quite the popular option here, but after speaking to people in real life who have used (other than my relative), it seems that many don't opt for that option and do quite well.


#13

Sorry for all the replies but one more thing, I typically learn better when being answered by someone such as what me and you are doing right now and you forcing me to explain why/what I believe and my reasons. No matter how well prepared I am for this cycle, in the end it is going to be much more of a learning experience for the future that I will have to go through anyway.

Clearly I want it to be as safe and effective as possible though. Hence, all the questions. Thank you for your feedback though, you may not realize it but it's done a world of good.


#14

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#15

Bushido:
I believe I live in the real world, so I lean towards your way of thinking quite a bit. I think I am going to go with your logic and work on that. Plus after reading post after post, you seem to know what you are saying most of the time and do so without bias. Thanks.


#16

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#17

For real. The DL is probly the most functional movement in the weight room, (counting every time in my life i have ever picked up a couch or t.v. get's me psyched on the DL)and with your upper body stats, you are strong enough to use this lift to add serious mass to your glutes, hams and upper back...Just saying...do you have some kind of alien knee injury that allows you to do squats but not DL?

oh...btw i say do the cycle and don't limit your exercise choice


#18

Deadlifts are a great exercise, no doubt about that. I'm just taking some time off thats all. My deadlift is nowhere near squats, I usually ramp up to a set of 405 for 5x5. My upper back thickness is overall my worst feature and has not significantly changed due to a few years of deadlifts, not sure why. So i changed it up and went with a more focused heavy rows type back training which is helping quite a bit.


#19

So I've decided I'm just going to wait until my 30th birthday to join the dark side. I feel I should just squeeze whatever else I can out of my natural self until then.


#20

I think your beard is already taking something.