How Much Can MMA Evolve?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Combat
21

[quote]goldengloves wrote:
I think something that will hurt MMA is the lack of an amateur system. While I don’t know much about amateur MMA fighting I do know that boxing has Silver Gloves, Golden Gloves, AIBA, PAL, Junior Olympic, and Olympic tournaments to gradually move fighters from one level to the next and get them experience on the national and international level. A boxer can train and compete year round as early as age 10 without it costing them anything really, they can train for free and have the cost of tournaments paid for by donors.
[/quote]

There’s amateur MMA out there, but it’s nowhere near as professional, standardized, or common. Unfortunately, you also have to be on the lookout for unscrupulous promoters who will get people hurt, or their amateur status revoked, just to make a quick buck.

Even kickboxing has a better amateur system than MMA. I’ve fought with IKF referees, and their training and ring management were superb. Contrast that with the “Rage in a Cage” promoters doing amateur and semi-pro MMA, with referees that seem to have come off the bro-cam at a local frat house. I wouldn’t sign on to any MMA promotion until I had seen a couple of their events (especially the undercard) and knew that they were clean and well run, and definitely not without checking the ref’s history and credentials.

There’s too much BS in low-level MMA to do otherwise. At the same time, I would sign up without hesitation or a moment’s thought to fight a golden gloves affiliated event. Their system is that well-run, I know I’m going to get a clean, safe, quality fight if I ever sign on with them, no matter where it is or who’s in charge.

MMA needs an amateur organization like this. I had hoped that the IFL (before it imploded) would lead to a better farm system like minor league baseball. Now, my best hope is that Zuffa wants to keep growing the sport, and starts setting up an amateur organization to farm talent into the UFC/Strikeforce. Right now they’re content to do it with a TV show full of brotards and whoever comes out of the Millitech or American Top Team camps, but the system is going to have to expand if they want to continue to grow the sport.

22

I think Rogan was talking more about the fact that Fedor is undersized for heavyweight, and there are more and more guys cutting down from the 275-290lb range to make 265, such as Bigfoot. Meanwhile, Fedor is chubby and fights at the same weight most LHWs walk around at. I mean think about, A.S. probably cuts from about 220 to fight at middleweight. Plus, Fedor has even stated himself that he is not big on lifting weights etc. You can tell he has lost some muscle mass from his Pride days.

I think skill wise he has no peer at HW. However, as much as it pains me to say, at this point I couldn’t see him beating Lesnar just because of the size and strength differential. Lesnar would probably just bullrush him into the cage for a takedown. If it stayed standing he would probably Zulu him though lol.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Short Answer: Rogan is talking to hype the current crop of fighters and cannot possibly believe what he is saying.

Long Answer:

If the purses in MMA rise, then so will the average athletic potential of the fighters. I am not disagreeing. With boxing there is more money to be made than with MMA so it seems that the best boxers will stay prizefighters. With other disciplines, maybe not. I also think this will be most noticeable at the lowest levels of the sport, not the highest. We already have world class strikers and grapplers fighting in the major promotions. I think Devil Dog Jim hit the nail on the head when he spoke about the abysmal quality of most local shows. MMA should soon hit a point that no one with 3 fights looks as sloppy as they often do today. The point about Condit dominating the first couple UFC’s, at the time those were small shows drawing from a pool of whoever they could get. The UFC did not even rate the best fighter in the Gracie family, and it was a Gracie family production.

I also think it should be obvious that someone training one specific skill(boxing, greco, freestyle, kickboxing, BJJ, No-Gi, ect.) should be able to improve faster and to a higher level than someone who has to train both stand up and grappling. They have more time to practice and recover.

My major contention is that Rogan loves to speak like Fedor, and even Roy Nelson don’t show prepared to fight. When the fuck did they gas? Nelson got out fought against JDS. He got tired because it is tiring to be repeatedly punched on the chin by someone who hits as hard as Cigano does. Fedor is 34 years old and has lost his last two fights bringing his record to an “abysmal” 31(8 knockouts and 16 submissions clearly not well rounded)-3 with one no contest. He is a multiple time World Combat Sambo champion and has won the Russian Judo Championships. Randy Couture’s record stands at 19-10. His last three oppenants have been James Toney (does that even count), Mark Coleman, and Brandon “I fight so that Robert A will keep thinking I am going to live up to my potential, pick me to win, and then look like a jackass when I suck” Vera. Couture has never won more than 4 straight and the last time he did was in 2001. Does Couture train like a world class athlete? He was a world class greco-roman competitor. So by definition he does, but then so does Fedor. Except on April 30 Rogan will treat us to an explanation on how up to date Couture’s training is, yet the game done up and changed on Fedor.

Evander Holyfield was one of the most rigorous and scientifically trained boxers in recent memory. He lost 2 out of 3 to Riddick Bowe. Bowe never looked like all that trim compared to Holyfield, but once the fight started he seemed to be adequatly prepared.

I am not arguing with anyone who has replied to this thread, because I know that if I start a thread and ask “Hey, I am an aspiring mixed martial artist/boxer/kickboxer and I need to know how to integrate xyz training methods into my program and look like GSP/Brock Lesnar, how can I get this done?” I will get a bunch of correct replies saying focus on road work, pad work, drills, and sparring. If I ask about getting ripped and implementing dynamic wackadoo tosses for time in order to raise my specific energy systems those of you not stroked out by the stupidity will tell me to train like a fucking fighter.

[/quote]

23

Dre,

I don’t give Rogan that much credit. Fedor is 6’1" and weighs in between 225-230. Cain Velasquez is 6’2" and 240. Now, I understand that a 34 year old Fedor is softer than Cain, but Cain crushed Lesnar. I remember reading that Fedor moved away from weight training because he perceived he got more benefit from calesthenics and fight training.

Considering his achievements I won’t second guess that decision. I say this despite my bias towards strength training (a certain degree of strength is essential and more is always better) and the fact that I will gladly point out that hormonal changes with age mean that holding on to strength and muscle mass without dedicated strength training is much easier sub 30 yrs old than past it. It is damn near impossible on the other side of 50.

The notion that Fedor needs to maybe spend some time hitting the weights if he wants to stay in top form is legitimate. My contention is that it is more a factor of fighter age than the evolution of the sport. Bigfoot is 6’4". Same height as Arloski, Rogers, and Herring. One inch shorter than Big Nog, and really who would you rather control on the ground BigFoot or Nog circa 2003-4? Fedor also has wins over Sylvia and Schilt in the past.

Rogan looks like he lifts, so maybe he is speaking from a bit of bias. I understand that looking the part leads to more marketability, but claiming Fedor to be “rolling around fat at 230” is disingenuous. Plenty of heavyweight and super heavyweight grapplers look soft while doing their best work.

I sort of agree about Lesnar-Fedor, but because Fedor has had trouble with wrestlers in the past and is on a 2 fight losing streak. This is tempered by Brock’s history of losing composure when getting punched, and I think Fedor could exploit the shit out of that. Carwin is probably more dangerous, except that he might gas out.

Robert A

EDIT To be clear. I think YOUR opinion is much more reasoned than Rogan’s.

24

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Rogan looks like he lifts, so maybe he is speaking from a bit of bias. I understand that looking the part leads to more marketability, but claiming Fedor to be “rolling around fat at 230” is disingenuous. Plenty of heavyweight and super heavyweight grapplers look soft while doing their best work.
[/quote]

I think we’ll see less and less of that as the sport continues to develop.

25

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Rogan looks like he lifts, so maybe he is speaking from a bit of bias. I understand that looking the part leads to more marketability, but claiming Fedor to be “rolling around fat at 230” is disingenuous. Plenty of heavyweight and super heavyweight grapplers look soft while doing their best work.
[/quote]

I think we’ll see less and less of that as the sport continues to develop.[/quote]

We still see it in Judo, Greco, and Freestyle. I am not saying that most will not be better served being leaner and more musculure, but there will be outliers that reach the top looking “softer”.

26

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Rogan looks like he lifts, so maybe he is speaking from a bit of bias. I understand that looking the part leads to more marketability, but claiming Fedor to be “rolling around fat at 230” is disingenuous. Plenty of heavyweight and super heavyweight grapplers look soft while doing their best work.
[/quote]

I think we’ll see less and less of that as the sport continues to develop.[/quote]

We still see it in Judo, Greco, and Freestyle. I am not saying that most will not be better served being leaner and more musculure, but there will be outliers that reach the top looking “softer”. [/quote]

James Toney?

27

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Brandon “I fight so that Robert A will keep thinking I am going to live up to my potential, pick me to win, and then look like a jackass when I suck” Vera.
[/quote]

hahaha! me too man, me too…

28

well, lets look at boxers. are todays boxers better than say in years past. are todays middleweights better than say Sugar Ray Robinson. hell no. are todays heavyweights better than joe frazier, george foreman, Ali. don’t think so. how about lightweights. years ago we had Roberto Duran. are todays lightweights better. hmmmm. doubt it. he was the devil back then. those who remember duran back then. he was the meanest boxer ever. just because time passes, doesn’t mean, fighters will get better.

MMA is a very young sport. at first you had guys only from certain fight arts. nowadays, they study all of them. so from now and forward, i don’t necessarily think fighters are going to improve as a whole. sure, there will be those special fighters, like Jon jones. but fighters now, train everything. so the rate of improvement will not be as great as it was when it first started till now.

29

unfortunately the king of the heavyweights in the Reem. Alistair Overream. yes, hes lost before. hes lost to lidel, to shogun, to arona. to Kharitoniv. but what most don’t realize is that guy cut tons of weight to make the 205 limit. he normally lost cause his gas tank wasn’t there. now, as a heavyweight, and his skill set has improved greatly.

if anyone doubts that, should watch him fight IN K1. which he just won. beat 3 guys in one night to win the K1 grand prix. anyone thinks that Cain velesquez or dos santos could even last a round with those guys are deluding themselves. sure, cain looks great on the feet against nobodies. sure he can beat nogeira in the standup. lol. dos santos, a guy who couldn’t even stop Roy nelson. ask yourself, if that was Overream fighting roy nelson, do you think roy would last even a round.

30

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
well, lets look at boxers. are todays boxers better than say in years past. are todays middleweights better than say Sugar Ray Robinson. hell no. are todays heavyweights better than joe frazier, george foreman, Ali. don’t think so. how about lightweights. years ago we had Roberto Duran. are todays lightweights better. hmmmm. doubt it. he was the devil back then. those who remember duran back then. he was the meanest boxer ever. just because time passes, doesn’t mean, fighters will get better.

MMA is a very young sport. at first you had guys only from certain fight arts. nowadays, they study all of them. so from now and forward, i don’t necessarily think fighters are going to improve as a whole. sure, there will be those special fighters, like Jon jones. but fighters now, train everything. so the rate of improvement will not be as great as it was when it first started till now.[/quote]

The boxers you mentioned aren’t that old-school compared to the history of boxing.

I think any of the guys you mentioned would destroy John Sullivan here, and he’s probably from further along in boxing’s history than the young guys in MMA today.

31

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
well, lets look at boxers. are todays boxers better than say in years past. are todays middleweights better than say Sugar Ray Robinson. hell no. are todays heavyweights better than joe frazier, george foreman, Ali. don’t think so. how about lightweights. years ago we had Roberto Duran. are todays lightweights better. hmmmm. doubt it. he was the devil back then. those who remember duran back then. he was the meanest boxer ever. just because time passes, doesn’t mean, fighters will get better.

MMA is a very young sport. at first you had guys only from certain fight arts. nowadays, they study all of them. so from now and forward, i don’t necessarily think fighters are going to improve as a whole. sure, there will be those special fighters, like Jon jones. but fighters now, train everything. so the rate of improvement will not be as great as it was when it first started till now.[/quote]

The boxers you mentioned aren’t that old-school compared to the history of boxing.

I think any of the guys you mentioned would destroy John Sullivan here, and he’s probably from further along in boxing’s history than the young guys in MMA today.[/quote]

john L sullivan, fought with no gloves and with no round limit. theyd fight sometimes 70 rounds. im talking the modern era. when the modern rules, 'queensbury rules" i beleive they are called.

32

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
well, lets look at boxers. are todays boxers better than say in years past. are todays middleweights better than say Sugar Ray Robinson. hell no. are todays heavyweights better than joe frazier, george foreman, Ali. don’t think so. how about lightweights. years ago we had Roberto Duran. are todays lightweights better. hmmmm. doubt it. he was the devil back then. those who remember duran back then. he was the meanest boxer ever. just because time passes, doesn’t mean, fighters will get better.

MMA is a very young sport. at first you had guys only from certain fight arts. nowadays, they study all of them. so from now and forward, i don’t necessarily think fighters are going to improve as a whole. sure, there will be those special fighters, like Jon jones. but fighters now, train everything. so the rate of improvement will not be as great as it was when it first started till now.[/quote]

The boxers you mentioned aren’t that old-school compared to the history of boxing.

I think any of the guys you mentioned would destroy John Sullivan here, and he’s probably from further along in boxing’s history than the young guys in MMA today.[/quote]

john L sullivan, fought with no gloves and with no round limit. theyd fight sometimes 70 rounds. im talking the modern era. when the modern rules, 'queensbury rules" i beleive they are called.[/quote]

Yup. The rules were MUCH different. If you put John L. Sullivan in the ring with the current rules, and he came up fighting under them, he would have been as spectacular as he was under the old ones as well.

Jack Dempsey fought just 20 years later then Sullivan, and I would put him up against any heavyweight ever. Same for Joe Louis, who fought a little more than 20 years after Dempsey.

33

I think its naive to think MMA’s not going to evolve. All sports are continuously evolving. World records are set every year. I agree with alot of the points made here and think a slowdown of this evolution is inevitable.

Alot of the talk seems to be about the next generation of mixed martial artists. But what about 3 or 4 generations down the line.

34

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
well, lets look at boxers. are todays boxers better than say in years past. are todays middleweights better than say Sugar Ray Robinson. hell no. are todays heavyweights better than joe frazier, george foreman, Ali. don’t think so. how about lightweights. years ago we had Roberto Duran. are todays lightweights better. hmmmm. doubt it. he was the devil back then. those who remember duran back then. he was the meanest boxer ever. just because time passes, doesn’t mean, fighters will get better.

MMA is a very young sport. at first you had guys only from certain fight arts. nowadays, they study all of them. so from now and forward, i don’t necessarily think fighters are going to improve as a whole. sure, there will be those special fighters, like Jon jones. but fighters now, train everything. so the rate of improvement will not be as great as it was when it first started till now.[/quote]

You’re using fighters from when boxing already changed significantly. From the late 1800s to the early 1930s boxing was two men fighting each other until one fighter was stopped or gave up. It modernized in the 1930s by limiting rounds and holding. It continued to progress from the 1930s and by about the 1950s we got modern boxing.

I think a big reason boxing hasn’t changed much in the athletic sense is it’s a pretty traditional sport. Most trainers are older guys and they learned how to prepare for a fight from someone who had the information given to them in the 1950s/1960s. That and fighters take a significantly fewer amount of fights the benefits they’ll get from S&C are pretty limited since they’re primarily getting ready for a fight with the 3 months they’ve, then they usually take a three month or more break and put on fat from a poor diet and really just live a sedentary lifestyle. Very few fighters are training year round, watching what they eat, or staying active. Floyd Mayweather, Timothy Bradley, Bernard Hopkins, and the Klitschkos are the only fighters that come to mind.

35

I’ve never bought that “old school fighters were better” argument when it comes to boxing. Yes the early days had some ridiculously tough fighters, but I do believe the overall technical proficiency of fighters across the board improved, peaking with the golden era of the likes of Ali and Frazier. But there were plenty of great fighters throughout the 80s and early 90s that would’ve given old school a run for their money.

Come 2011 we’re in a bit of a dry spot talent wise in most divisions with the exception of guys like pacman, mayweather etc. P.S just wanted to say that the HW division makes want to puke.

36

There is a video of of Rogan talking about how he was like a high level amateur in TKD. There was a picture from his younger days, he looked light weight diesel.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Rogan looks like he lifts, so maybe he is speaking from a bit of bias. I understand that looking the part leads to more marketability, but claiming Fedor to be “rolling around fat at 230” is disingenuous. Plenty of heavyweight and super heavyweight grapplers look soft while doing their best work.
[/quote]

I think we’ll see less and less of that as the sport continues to develop.[/quote]

37

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[Jack Dempsey fought just 20 years later then Sullivan, and I would put him up against any heavyweight ever. Same for Joe Louis, who fought a little more than 20 years after Dempsey.
[/quote]

Quoted for truth about Dempsey and Louis. For my money Joe Louis was the greatest heavy of all time. I remember reading a quote from one of his trainers that also worked with Jack Johnson to the effect that Johnson could have beat Louis because “Johnson was a mobile target while Louis was a stationary target.” That leads me to three possibilities:

  1. My steel trap of a mind (cruel, outdated, susceptible to rust) is butchering the quote since I do not have it in front of me.
  2. The trainer is biased either from the older is better thing, or he likes Johnson better for other reasons
  3. The surviving film does not do Johnson justice, because anyone that makes Joe Louis stationary by comparison…I cannot imagine the horror of facing that.
38

You hit the marketability part on the head. Guys like Overeem, Lesnar and Carwin are much more marketable to the average fan because they look like how people think a dominating fighter should look. The funny thing is when people talk about these guys, usually the first thing brought up is how big and powerful they are. Leading up to the Cain/Lesnar fight when people were asked who would win, the ones that said Lesnar cited his supposed size and strength advantage. Yet no one said he would win because he was a better fighter than Cain.

Carwin has smashed a bunch of guys inside one round because of his power, but would anyone in their right mind watch him fight and say he is incredibly skilled in terms of being well-rounded? Hell, he can’t even last two rounds without quitting.

And you’re right about Cain too, he doesn’t look the part too much. Pride era Fedor looked bigger than Cain does now. But he was clearly more skilled than Lesnar and has a great work ethic and comes to fight.

I think Rogan takes a different tone when he is acting on behalf of the UFC. In other interviews he has said what a monster Fedor is and how he would love to see him come to the UFC.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Dre,

I don’t give Rogan that much credit. Fedor is 6’1" and weighs in between 225-230. Cain Velasquez is 6’2" and 240. Now, I understand that a 34 year old Fedor is softer than Cain, but Cain crushed Lesnar. I remember reading that Fedor moved away from weight training because he perceived he got more benefit from calesthenics and fight training.

Considering his achievements I won’t second guess that decision. I say this despite my bias towards strength training (a certain degree of strength is essential and more is always better) and the fact that I will gladly point out that hormonal changes with age mean that holding on to strength and muscle mass without dedicated strength training is much easier sub 30 yrs old than past it. It is damn near impossible on the other side of 50.

The notion that Fedor needs to maybe spend some time hitting the weights if he wants to stay in top form is legitimate. My contention is that it is more a factor of fighter age than the evolution of the sport. Bigfoot is 6’4". Same height as Arloski, Rogers, and Herring. One inch shorter than Big Nog, and really who would you rather control on the ground BigFoot or Nog circa 2003-4? Fedor also has wins over Sylvia and Schilt in the past.

Rogan looks like he lifts, so maybe he is speaking from a bit of bias. I understand that looking the part leads to more marketability, but claiming Fedor to be “rolling around fat at 230” is disingenuous. Plenty of heavyweight and super heavyweight grapplers look soft while doing their best work.

I sort of agree about Lesnar-Fedor, but because Fedor has had trouble with wrestlers in the past and is on a 2 fight losing streak. This is tempered by Brock’s history of losing composure when getting punched, and I think Fedor could exploit the shit out of that. Carwin is probably more dangerous, except that he might gas out.

Robert A

EDIT To be clear. I think YOUR opinion is much more reasoned than Rogan’s.[/quote]

39

I don’t know if you can make a comparison of Cain and Junior fighting K-1 guys. Of course they would lose to those guys. But Overeem, Badr Hari, whoever wouldn’t beat a high level NCAA COLLEGE wrestler in a wrestling match. That’s comparing apples to oranges. Just like the average BJJ mma blackbelt would get destroyed at high levels of Gi bjj.

Overeem has gotten better, I will give you that. But not a whole lot of K-1 level guys have had success in mma. I think Cain would beat Overeem. He would take him down and out work him. Just my opinion.

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
unfortunately the king of the heavyweights in the Reem. Alistair Overream. yes, hes lost before. hes lost to lidel, to shogun, to arona. to Kharitoniv. but what most don’t realize is that guy cut tons of weight to make the 205 limit. he normally lost cause his gas tank wasn’t there. now, as a heavyweight, and his skill set has improved greatly.

if anyone doubts that, should watch him fight IN K1. which he just won. beat 3 guys in one night to win the K1 grand prix. anyone thinks that Cain velesquez or dos santos could even last a round with those guys are deluding themselves. sure, cain looks great on the feet against nobodies. sure he can beat nogeira in the standup. lol. dos santos, a guy who couldn’t even stop Roy nelson. ask yourself, if that was Overream fighting roy nelson, do you think roy would last even a round.[/quote]

40

I don’t know about older boxers necessarily beating current champions (well, the best of the best current champions). As much as I dislike the guy’s management, Mike Tyson was a freaking demon. And then he ran into a guy named Evander Holyfield, and looked like a chump. But if you think Mike Tyson in his prime couldn’t give Ali or Foreman a run for their money, I think you’re smoking something, and as much as I like Marciano I think he’d have eaten Tyson’s right hook - right uppercut and ended up on the canvas in the first round. Boxing evolved, but some guys were so good that it took 20 years to find someone who had evolved past them.