Donshallenschme
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I don’t count deadlifting toward back work. No ratio of pushing or pulling either.
I do somewhere between 150-300 reps of back work on my 2 upper body days a week. For lower body, 32-48 reps of reverse hyper once a week.
For upperbody, it is rows, chins/pulldowns and band pull aparts all included.
Working well. This is a 2 year old photo of my back, but it tends to be my best developed feature and strongest group.
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For some time I was snatching from the floor twice a week but only dead lifted twice a month because I also rotated in good mornings, loaded carries, kettle ball swings. I was also pretty focused on high volume box squats, which I did 2-3 times a week and took up a lot of time. For the upper body, I always do a row variation any day I do a bench variation, and follow the same strategy for vertical pushing and pressing. I also like doing chin up variations or pull downs on dead lift days because my spine likes being stretched back out.
But my new strategy is going to be focusing on the hinge muscles for awhile. I’m going to do dead lift variations more often and rest for longer periods between sets, and then do light sets of good mornings, kettle ball swings, and loaded carries as assistance work.
Right now my pulling volume isn’t all that high (though the intensity is fairly high) I’m doing chins for 5 sets every other day & one or two sets of rows for medium reps.
Back when I had a more conventional bbing back work-out I used to do about 4 sets of pull-ups, 4 sets of chest supported rows, 3 sets of band assisted chins, 3 sets of inverted rows then about three sets of face-pulls + pull-overs for sets of 15-25 to finish. Deads would be done on leg day.
None presently (as doing some front squat specialisation). Normally I do a lot of high pulls and deadlifts.
Started doing lots of sandbag carries and squats . Then deadlifts and very heavy barbell rows. Eventually gravitated towards OL variations. When I was bit lighter 200-220 I did a lot of chin ups and pullups.
I usually go for between 5 - 10 oly ring chins between every set of most exercises on any given day. Not optimal however you’ve usually got about 75 - 100 chins by the end of every session. I’ll take that.
I mix this up with 15 - 25 inverted rows off a bar or 25 - 50 band pull-aparts. Pull-aparts done more for my traps than any shrugs.
The back, especially upper, seems to be a body part you can smash relentlessly and it recovers in double time.
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I do push/pull/legs so I guess just once every rotation, however I do a few sets of face pulls before my push days which seems to keep my shoulders slightly happier than they would be without them
Every session involves back work, either through deads and their various assistance work or directly on upper body day. My front looks like a dog’s breakfast but my back is half-decent.
deadlift twice a week, do some lat pulldowns / pull ups & rows, about it really so i do 4 exercises on back a week.
Currently 3-4 sets of power cleans and 1-2 sets of deadlifts one day, 10-minute chin-up EMOM two other days a week, and 4x8-12 elbow-out one-arm rows (rear delt/upper back emphasis) once a week. I feel good and things are improving weekly, so I’ll say it’s working.
Deads definitely count as part of back work, but they’re by no means “enough” since the majority of back muscles aren’t working through any ROM during the lift, like you said.
In general, back work is like hitting anything else. Focus on the exercises you feel hit the target muscle the best and go to town on them. Shooting for a 2:1 or 3:1 push/pull ratio is more about optimizing joint health moreso than improving size or even strength, so it doesn’t technically “need” to be a concern, depending on your training priority.
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For most back work, I can feel the lats working more with neutral-grip work, either pulldowns/NG chins or most row variations. It makes it easier to “pull from the elbows” and take the arms out of it, even though the arms are in a stronger mechanical position to work more. Especially if you focus on “squeezing” the elbows inwards (lat activation tip stolen from @The_Mighty_Stu).
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What the hell does that guy know?! Stupid bodybuilder, he doesn’t do 531, or full body workouts 9x a week! I even heard that he stopped doing deadlifts when he got serious about building a bodybuilding physique and realized it wasn’t helping him! What an idiot! -lol
S
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I suffer from the same problem, I look like more like a ninja turtle these days… A bit of back and nothing much else
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I hit some form of back work 3-4 times a week.
Usually hit SGDL for 3-5 sets of 8 on ME lower day.
Some form of rows on ME upper day.
Goodmornings and band face pulls on DE lower
Chins/pullups on DE upper day.
Been doing it about 3 weeks now and have definitely noticed a difference in muscle composition and how tight I can get my lats now on deadlifts.
I actually split my vertical and horizontal pulling. I’ll do pull-ups 3-4 x’s a week while my horizontal stuff (mostly rowing) I do 2 x’s a week. Nothing fancy for pull-ups, I’ll do wide grip, then wide neutral grip, narrow neutral grip and finish off with wide grip.
As for rows, I started with seated rows with an ‘A’ bar at least 4 sets. Usually looks like 200 x 20, 220 x 12, 240 x 8 and 260 x 6. Barbell rows, 185 x 15, 205 x10, 205 x 8, 205 x 6. Then finish off with meadows rows for 90 x 10, 125 x 10, 125 x 10.
Oh before I forget, I’m 5-6" around 170+ in that picture (current state I’m in)
Overall I’m happy with the results. I’ve developed really good thickness in my mid-back which is pretty much what I’ve been shooting since I’m pretty much satisfied with my width.
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It’s been almost three years since I started this and I still don’t have a clear answer.
I decided to super set pull ups, rows, and rear delt fly’s with deadlifts, clean pulls, and power cleans this week. I can’t help but feel like I’m just going through the motions on the rows. The pull ups are a good warm up. The reverse fly’s and rear delt fly’s feel good for my shoulders; it just sucks super setting them with deads or cleans.
I’m struggling to accept the more isometric moves like deads, pulls, and cleans as “back” work, but I also feel whooped after doing all three. The other back work seems laughable by comparison.
What are your thoughts?
Is it necessary to do dedicated horizontal and vertical pulls or will picking up heavy things be sufficient?
I’ve noticed a lot of Wendler’s and CT’s work doesn’t stress rows or pulling as much as pushing movements and legs. Am I just being dense and not taking the hint?
Wendler doesn’t stress pulling, but it’s a key and required part of all his programs. It’s not programmed, primarily because, when you try to program percentages on chins and rows it becomes tricky. You can cheat way more on a chin or row vs a bench or a press, and turn the whole thing into a total circus act that in no way involves the back anymore, and then programming percentages off of that becomes insane. It’s easier to just give a rep goal and trust the trainee to hit it from there.
I train the back in phases and waves. Sometimes it gets more attention, sometimes less. Sometimes it’s from events, sometimes dedicated movements.
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I know Wendler just says do 50 pulls, but CT seems to have even less. I guess the question I’m trying to answer is “How do deadlifts, pulls, and cleans factor into back training?”
I know the training answer is try something and see how it works. I’ve always been afraid of doing too little back work…but I also don’t want to do way more than is necessary…because these sessions are tough.
I don’t ever count deads or cleans as back work, but I also don’t tend to worry about if I’m doing enough back work when I’m doing those movements. I do my back work to make those movements better/stronger.
I look at things with the long view. If I’m “not doing enough” now, that’s fine: I’ll do more later.
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