How Many Sets Per Muscle for You?

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Hmm, what’s the benefit of doing 2 or more sets with the same weight?

I can’t fathom not doing more than 1 set at a really tough weight. Warm-ups or not, you’re not putting a lot of stress repeatedly on a muscle with only one set.

Maybe an example.
Say you can do 8 reps on the bench press with 225 lbs and it’s really tough on the 8th rep. You can with rest do another set of 8 but it’s a little tougher. On the last set you can barely get 8,maybe only 7.

Or by your method
You do 235 on the bench press but you can barely get 8. But only for 1 set.

The overall workload will be greater with the 1st example, thus causing more muscle damage, thus more growth.

[/quote]

That sounds great, but all those extra sets are really doing is cutting into recovery. Why not hit that 235 pounds for one set and then next week up the weight by 5 pounds? With those three sets you are taking longer to progress.

The sooner you get to your absolute strongest on an exercise is the day you will be your absolute hugest, providing you of course eat food to get there.

[quote]Alquemist wrote:

The sooner you get to your absolute strongest on an exercise is the day you will be your absolute hugest, providing you of course eat food to get there.
[/quote]

Sounds a lot like powerlifting, to me. Progression can be measured many different ways. This includes adding more reps, sets, or having less rest time, etc.

Edit: And to respond to your comment about the extra sets eating into recovery time, there is a point where adding extra sets will help, and then a point where adding extra sets will most likely eat into recovery time. These points are different for everyone. Not everyone can sufficiently damage their muscle in 1 set to failure.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
I’m with mr. popular here, guys…
I only care about the last “all-out” set of each exercise… I’ve done the previous sets a dozen times (or even a hundred times) before, I doubt they add anything to my growth…

Didn’t we have a discussion about that stuff in the t-cell, i.e. people saying that pros do 12 sets per bodypart while in truth 8-9 of those are really progressively heavier non-failure warm-ups…

You call a warm-up putting everything you have into your last rep of a set just because you didn’t fail? Or are you saying they are just bullshitting for those 8 or 9 sets after their warm up.

If I do 2 warm up sets then do 5 sets after, whether the weight is the same or more, the last rep of each set may not be me “absolute” failure but it’s damn sure all I can do. I can’t consider that a warm up.

Maybe you and popular never plataue but for those of us who have knowing how many sets you’ve done before sure helps with progressing. A fast set of one rep is nearly useless to me, so we’re talking about sets of 3 or 5 reps, when I’m at my max I just can’t add more weight or reps…so how would I progress?..Add a set.

Sure adding endless sets can lead to overtraining but not if you don’t do it every workout for the rest of your life. I will continue to add sets until my reps go up. If it goes up I drop all the extra sets. That way I have progressed, plus my training capacity has increased, so the number of sets is not as taxing and “feels” like a recovery week, when it’s really a normal workout week. [/quote]

Read again:
Didn’t we have a discussion about that stuff in the t-cell, i.e. people saying that pros do 12 sets per bodypart while in truth 8-9 of those are really progressively heavier non-failure warm-ups…

Also: dude, does your strength never go up or what?
If on one “work set” I do x lbs for 10 reps, then next time I either add weight or do more reps with that weight… And if I can’t beat what I’ve done previously:

a) I just do a different exercise for the same muscle-group for a while

b) Generally rotate exercises like curls where adding weight is more difficult anyway.

c) Eat more (this solves the problem 90 percent of the time, and no, I’m not joking here.)

And what are you talking about here:

I don’t get what’s so hard to understand, say Bodybuilder x does BB Curls.

So it goes like this:
bar * 12, the “true warmup” ← not strenuous at all, maybe not full rom and just pumping to get some blood in.
bar + X * 10
bar + 2X (whatever, more weight basically) * 8-10 feels a little heavier (obviously)
bar + 3x * 8-10 straining but non-failure.
bar + 4x * however many he gets, if he gets more than, say, 10, he will increase the weight next time and work his way up to 10 again.

One can count that as 1 warmup+4 work sets, but that’s misleading because to some people “work sets” means all-out sets, while some just count any set heavier than the first as a work set… for some reason.

I for one do however many progressively heavier sets before the all-out one (which, to me, are warm-ups, but this is just a word man! Call them ramp-up sets or whatever…) that I think I need on that particular day…
If it’s cold or the muscles feel tight or whatever, I do more to be on the safe side…

That is how virtually every big guy trains in bodybuilding… You can count the sets differently or call them differently, but it’s still the same thing and you can do whatever you prefer…

I would only say that I did 2 work sets of an exercise if those two were the same weight and were all-out, but I don’t see any purpose in doing 2 same-weight sets for an exercise, as I’ve said.

Not trying to offend any of you multiple-work-set guys here, just saying.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Alquemist wrote:

The sooner you get to your absolute strongest on an exercise is the day you will be your absolute hugest, providing you of course eat food to get there.

Sounds a lot like powerlifting, to me. Progression can be measured many different ways. This includes adding more reps, sets, or having less rest time, etc. [/quote]

Uhh what? I am not talking singles here. This is bodybuilding.

When you incline press 350lb for 10 reps your chest will be huge, no matter how many sets you use.

Load is the ultimate barometer for growth.

I thought most big guys did it my way??

Sorry, I don’t follow all the T-Cell threads, so I’m not sure which one you’re referring to.

So, you’re saying 1 tough set per exercise is all that is needed for a total of 3-4 exercises?
Seems like really low volume (as far as total weight is concerned).

I don’t see how going heavy for all sets would impair recovery considering you’re not going to begin recovery till the workout is over.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Alquemist wrote:

The sooner you get to your absolute strongest on an exercise is the day you will be your absolute hugest, providing you of course eat food to get there.

Sounds a lot like powerlifting, to me. Progression can be measured many different ways. This includes adding more reps, sets, or having less rest time, etc. [/quote]

I’ve never met any successful bodybuilder who got big by simply decreasing rest-time.

Most try to add weight, first and foremost, and try to stay in a certain rep-range on their last set.
If they hit the top end of that rep range, they add some weight next time, if not, they’ll try to get more reps till the above condition applies.

The biggest Bodybuilders are generally very strong for reps. That’s also what alquemist meant, if I’m not mistaken (i.e. not 1RM but 4-20RM strength).

[quote]Alquemist wrote:

Load is the ultimate barometer for growth. [/quote]

load and overall volume.

Are you really saying that one set of your example is equal in terms of strength and growth (over time) as 3-4 sets?

Cephalic- I’m not taking your words as offensive, just discussion :slight_smile:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Alquemist wrote:

The sooner you get to your absolute strongest on an exercise is the day you will be your absolute hugest, providing you of course eat food to get there.

Sounds a lot like powerlifting, to me. Progression can be measured many different ways. This includes adding more reps, sets, or having less rest time, etc.

I’ve never met any successful bodybuilder who got big by simply decreasing rest-time.

Most try to add weight, first and foremost, and try to stay in a certain rep-range on their last set.
If they hit the top end of that rep range, they add some weight next time, if not, they’ll try to get more reps till the above condition applies.

The biggest Bodybuilders are generally very strong for reps. That’s also what alquemist meant, if I’m not mistaken (i.e. not 1RM but 4-20RM strength). [/quote]

I completely agree with this. My perception of what he meant was that you only need 1 set to failure, as opposed to doing higher volume. My only argument was that many people respond better with higher volume, taking multiple sets to failure.

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
You call a warm-up putting everything you have into your last rep of a set just because you didn’t fail? Or are you saying they are just bullshitting for those 8 or 9 sets after their warm up.

If I do 2 warm up sets then do 5 sets after, whether the weight is the same or more, the last rep of each set may not be me “absolute” failure but it’s damn sure all I can do. I can’t consider that a warm up.
[/quote]

Then you simply use a different training style than the one I was talking about.

So what would your training look like? Instead of the example I provided above, would it be like:

BB Curls
whatever you start with * x reps (warmup)
heavier weight * x reps (still considered warmup)
even heavier weight * as many as you can get (say, 14)
yet again heavier weight * as many as you can get (say, 11)
+weight * as many as you get (8)
+weight * as many as you can get (5)

?

To me, that would be 4 work sets, all right, but it’s not what 99 percent of all big bodybuilders do, which was what I was talking about.

Big guys usually go the way I described in my previous post.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Alquemist wrote:

The sooner you get to your absolute strongest on an exercise is the day you will be your absolute hugest, providing you of course eat food to get there.

Sounds a lot like powerlifting, to me. Progression can be measured many different ways. This includes adding more reps, sets, or having less rest time, etc.

I’ve never met any successful bodybuilder who got big by simply decreasing rest-time.

Most try to add weight, first and foremost, and try to stay in a certain rep-range on their last set.
If they hit the top end of that rep range, they add some weight next time, if not, they’ll try to get more reps till the above condition applies.

The biggest Bodybuilders are generally very strong for reps. That’s also what alquemist meant, if I’m not mistaken (i.e. not 1RM but 4-20RM strength).

I completely agree with this. My perception of what he meant was that you only need 1 set to failure, as opposed to doing higher volume. My only argument was that many people respond better with higher volume, taking multiple sets to failure.[/quote]

Well most bbers simply do multiple exercises and have one all-out set per exercise done (3 all out sets per bodypart, in most cases), instead of doing multiple all-out sets for the same exercise.

All other sets that come before that set are progressively heavier with either same or descending amount of reps, but never to failure as far as I can tell… I think we’re all misunderstanding each other here :wink:

Yeah, I’m not talking about going to failure for all 3-4 sets per exercise. But, regardless the previous sets need to be challenging IMO

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
I thought most big guys did it my way??

Sorry, I don’t follow all the T-Cell threads, so I’m not sure which one you’re referring to.

So, you’re saying 1 tough set per exercise is all that is needed for a total of 3-4 exercises?
Seems like really low volume (as far as total weight is concerned).

I don’t see how going heavy for all sets would impair recovery considering you’re not going to begin recovery till the workout is over.[/quote]

Ehm, but that’s what almost everyone trains like dude… It’s not as if the progressively-heavier sets are not tough, but they are not all-out. The last set generally is… Some people may stop when they hit a certain number of reps there, but that’s not all that common…
In the end they all try to beat that one set, mainly.

Have you never watched any bbing DVD’s or seen the big guys at your gym take two 25 pound dbs for warmup(this is alternating db curls now), then do 2 45s for 10, then 2 60s for 10, then 2 75s for 8-10 (if they drop the reps here, it’s generally to conserve energy for the last set) then 2 90s… this time going all-out?

I’ve never seen Ronnie, Kevin or any other do 2 warm-up sets with 25 and 40 and then do 3-5 sets with 90… As alquemist said, that just cuts into recovery (and due to the fact that the weight-jumps are so big, is likely not the best choice for injury-prevention…).

Do whatever you like, I have no problem with that, I was just wondering about your way of training as it’s simply not used often (outside of certain articles and author’s books, that is…)

Edit: If you read over a pro’s routine and see:
Bench Press, 5 sets.
Then that may mean 1+ very light warm-ups plus 5 progressively heavier sets or the warm-up is even included… Thing is that only the last set is the one where progression is measured.

You sometimes read people say stuff like “do 3 sets of 8-12 reps, select a weight that lets you fail within the desired rep range each set…” But that’s simply not what reality looks like.

Even bodybuilders or pro-bodybuilders who sometimes write such things (most likely ghost-written, but anyway) do it the other way in reality, as can be seen by watching them in the gym or in their videos.

There’s Frank McGrath for you, he starts off with the bar, then adds weight each time. Same on the DB Curls.

Sure he trains intensely on every set, but the last, heaviest one is the one where he goes all-out.

You can also see there what I was talking about before (the form of “rest-pause”, if you so will): He rests the bar on his thighs and catches his breath within the set, then reps out another one, then another one while cheating somewhat on the positive.

On the alt. DB Curls he grabs a heavier set of dbs for every set.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Well most bbers simply do multiple exercises and have one all-out set per exercise done (3 all out sets per bodypart, in most cases), instead of doing multiple all-out sets for the same exercise.

All other sets that come before that set are progressively heavier with either same or descending amount of reps, but never to failure as far as I can tell… [/quote]

We now seem to be on the same page. This is exactly how I train, actually, except usually with a burnout set at the very end of the workout, which some people may or may not agree with.

[quote]I think we’re all misunderstanding each other here :wink:
[/quote]

Over the internet?!? That’s unpossible!

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

Well most bbers simply do multiple exercises and have one all-out set per exercise done (3 all out sets per bodypart, in most cases), instead of doing multiple all-out sets for the same exercise.

All other sets that come before that set are progressively heavier with either same or descending amount of reps, but never to failure as far as I can tell…

We now seem to be on the same page. This is exactly how I train, actually, except usually with a burnout set at the very end of the workout, which some people may or may not agree with.
[/quote]
Whatever you like man, I do one or more light sets to get some more blood in and that’s it… Those are the only ones where I may use the same weight (I.e. pushdowns at the end of a tricep workout… I just use some light weight and pump a little, seems to help my recovery…
Wouldn’t do that when DCing, but I’m currently training standard bb because my new gym has too little equipment…)

[quote]
I think we’re all misunderstanding each other here :wink:

Over the internet?!? That’s unpossible![/quote]

Okay, what were we arguing about ? :wink:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Alquemist wrote:

Load is the ultimate barometer for growth.

load and overall volume.

Are you really saying that one set of your example is equal in terms of strength and growth (over time) as 3-4 sets?

Cephalic- I’m not taking your words as offensive, just discussion :)[/quote]

No worries man, same here.

I’d say increase in load in a certain rep-range over time = growth.

Btw your post only showed up ages after I made those last 3 or so posts… Communication is a little skewed here :wink:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Yeah, I’m not talking about going to failure for all 3-4 sets per exercise. But, regardless the previous sets need to be challenging IMO[/quote]

You know what, let’s take this to PM… Your posts keep appearing 20 minutes late and way back in the thread :wink:

PM makes the communication a little easier.

Hey Cephalic,

Any chance you could write down what a typical session for, say, legs would look like for you?

I totally agree with the fact that the biggest dudes train with a ramping up to an all out set approach. I’ve seen big dudes in my gym do the same thing.

Do you think that the ramping up to a heaviest set style is something that a more experienced lifter would primarily benefit from?

It’s my observation that programs with straight sets of 3-5sets for 3-5reps with 3-5 minutes of rest between sets seem to work very well for not only adding size but adding a good amount of strength to newer lifters, but that may just be because they have a less efficient nervous system and need the extra volume.

The common thread with those programs is that there is a higher volume at >80% 1RM weights than what I’ve seen BBers do in videos and IRL.

Thanks

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Alquemist wrote:

Load is the ultimate barometer for growth.

load and overall volume.

Are you really saying that one set of your example is equal in terms of strength and growth (over time) as 3-4 sets?

Cephalic- I’m not taking your words as offensive, just discussion :)[/quote]

Wow, this thread has exploded over the past hour.

What I mean is, yes I think it is best to save failure for that last set.

In my opinion, it’s best to have your sets pyramiding up in weight and getting progressively harder and more intense, until you get to that last set which is all out and at your heaviest weight.

Like I was doing Incline Presses on wednesday. I worked up in weight over several sets, until on the fourth set, I was using a weight that I could move 6 times until I was totally spent.

The first few sets are priming the muscle and ligaments, getting blood in the muscle and preparing your CNS; the sets get progressively harder. Then when you get to your top set you are at full blown intensity.

On some days you could do a set after that at lower weight, to get a better pump and more blood in the muscle. But the point is to prepare your muscles for one proper set.

The reason why I think this works well is because you are doing preparation sets taht are harder than casual warm ups but you are not sucking your strength levels. And then the last set is at very high intensity.

Until you actually train this way you may feel skeptical. But it just feels right and it allows you to gauge how you feel that day and really push your limits without injury. You can also progress faster because you aren’t stuck on getting “3 sets of 8” or whatever - as long as your last set sits withing something like 6-12 reps you can add some iron next week on the bar. If that weight happens to be 3-4 reps (i.e very heavy) then next week its a matter of doing more reps with that weight.

The more advanced someone is the better they will be able to utilize that 1 all out set… beginners and intermediates can use several sets at their top weight simply because they can not produce the force necessary to exhaust the muscle with 1 set.

Assuming you are 23+ years old imagine yourself at your first few months worth of workouts maybe when you were 15-17, did you train hard? Most people probably assumed so but can anyone here say that after 5+ years of training they can’t hit it exponentialy harder than they could those first few months?

Those kids that do 1x20 on the back squat at 155 might be tired and sore afterwards but they could(and probably did) do it again. If you are squatting 365x20 now all out(breathing squat style) the last thing on your mind should be another set lol. More like where’s the nearest oxygen tank and how in the world am I going to push the gas pedal on my car lol.

If you can bring it harder and with much heavier weights now… do you need as many sets as you first did to get hte job done?

[quote]Flow wrote:
Hey Cephalic,

Any chance you could write down what a typical session for, say, legs would look like for you?

I totally agree with the fact that the biggest dudes train with a ramping up to an all out set approach. I’ve seen big dudes in my gym do the same thing.

Do you think that the ramping up to a heaviest set style is something that a more experienced lifter would primarily benefit from?

It’s my observation that programs with straight sets of 3-5sets for 3-5reps with 3-5 minutes of rest between sets seem to work very well for not only adding size but adding a good amount of strength to newer lifters, but that may just be because they have a less efficient nervous system and need the extra volume.

The common thread with those programs is that there is a higher volume at >80% 1RM weights than what I’ve seen BBers do in videos and IRL.

Thanks[/quote]

You should not even have to worry about “80% of 1RM” and stuff like that… Unless you train westside or some other powerlifting style that’s all math-based.

Your last all-out set is supposed to fall into a certain rep-range (whatever that muscle seems to respond to best, for example).
Say: 4-8.

Now imagine that your last session of BB Curls looked like this:
Bar12
Bar+40
8
Bar+808
Bar+120
8
Bar+130*7 ← You “work set” or whatever you like to call it.

You’re in the upper range of the desired rep-range, so you could increase the weight next time, or if you want to be on the safe side, do the same weigth next session but get one or more additional reps on your all-out set.

Now, if would only have gotten 4 reps on your last set, increasing the weight next time would be stupid. Instead, try to get more reps until you get 7 or 8 or more, then increase the weight.

Got it? No %of 1RM calculations or any of that crap. If you feel that you can progress easier when staying in the 4-6/4-8 rep zone, use that for your last set. If you prefer 8-10/8-12 or whatever, do that instead.

This isn’t for advanced guys only. Pretty much every big guy started out that way and kept on doing it like that.