[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place?
[quote]TisDrew wrote:
Doing speed work screws up my form on squat/bench. I’ve never done speed deads.[/quote]
Then you’re not doing speed benches and squats correctly.
[quote]rasturai wrote:
wild_iron_gym - Sounds good man, that actually makes a lot of sense. and espeically for a sub-par deadlifter we would probably need less speed work and keep concentration on making gains on the variants and what not.
[/quote]
And what about the people who are subpar lifters because they LACK speed?
I just can’t believe the shit I see lately.
YES, many people - in nearly all cases those who have CONSIDERABLE experience in powerlifting recreationally or competitively - make further gains in the deadlift by taking a break from it. I haven’t, but many people have. That’s fine.
But I’ve seen in two threads in which improvement in lifts is the topic and the poster is advised to stay away from the lift they’re trying to improve in! Not only that, but here we have people talking about doing away with speed work when in fact it COULD be speed work that MIGHT improve the lift.
Clearly many haven’t read extensively on speed work because there are BEGINNER speed work (eg, deadlift for 15 sets of 1 rep with 30% of the max) schemes and you don’t have to be advanced to do plyos (eg, dynamic lunges, various box jumps, plyo pushups) or in some cases, sprints.
When I was doing conjugated programs (which I used to do half the year), I did speed work every week for deadlifts and squats. Here’s how the plan looked.
Max Effort Day
Speed Day
The most basic shit in the world. No bands, no chains. I made great gains and never even thought I was in the position in which I could neglect or take a break from a lift or that I was so fast that I could afford to just do speed work here and there.
I’m NOT saying anyone has to do things the way I did or do because everyone makes progress in their OWN way. I’m just surprised when people use or talk of advice that doesn’t apply to most ORDINARY lifters.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place? [/quote]
Here’s what I mean
say your PR is 600lbs in the pull,
so on training days you’re doing 400 which is well within your strength, so you do them really fast off the floor, explosive pull.
now if you move up to 550 or more that’s coming closer to your 600 PR, so pulling explosive off the floor with that weight might not be a good idea for you.
and don’t know about you, but I often pull just outside my range, that’s how I push myself to get new PRs.
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place? [/quote]
Here’s what I mean
say your PR is 600lbs in the pull,
so on training days you’re doing 400 which is well within your strength, so you do them really fast off the floor, explosive pull.
now if you move up to 550 or more that’s coming closer to your 600 PR, so pulling explosive off the floor with that weight might not be a good idea for you.
and don’t know about you, but I often pull just outside my range, that’s how I push myself to get new PRs.[/quote]
If you lift a weight, it’s in your range. After all, if it was outside of your range, you wouldn’t be able to lift it.
Anyway, it’s unwise to yank ANY deadlift off a floor and that’s not even how speed reps with very light weights are to be performed. The first pull is done pretty tight and steady. When it’s past the knees, then you can apply speed.
With a 1 to 5 rep max especially, you need to brace yourself, take the lax out of the bar, slowly grind up to the knees, and THEN explode through.
Even Olympic lifts don’t initiate the first pull (floor to knee level) in a snatch or clean explosively with weights they can easily deadlift.
Dave Tate wrote:
Beginner Deadlift Cycles
Deadlift Cycle 1
This is designed for the total beginner who needs to address form and technique issues.
â?¢ Week 1: 20-30% for 15 sets of 1 rep with 60 second rest periods
â?¢ Week 2: 20-30% for 15 sets of 1 rep with 45 second rest periods
â?¢ Week 3: 20-30% for 15 sets of 1 rep with 30 second rest periods
Deadlift Cycle 2
This is designed for those who have gym experience but are still new to this system.
â?¢ Weeks one, two and three: 50% for 8 to 10 sets of 1 rep with 45 second rest periods
Please pay attention to Andy Bolton particularly. No one yanks a bar from a floor if they wish to remain injury free or lift their best in the deadlift.
heyyy i was at the NERB in Massechusettes and saw Brian Siders actually do the lifts!! lol I was 16 years old then…I also saw Sam Byrd, Nick Winters, SGT Rock do 600x10 on the deadlift for exhibition…I chilled with Rampage Jackson for a while…talked to him for over half hour lol it was pretty sick.
SGT Rock also SOMEHOW I can’t even believe it but brought me n my friend backstage where ALL the lifters were warming up and shootin the shit.
Talked to Mike Miller…all nice guys…talked to Ed Coan…talk to Kirk Karwoski…haha captain kirk had some pretty crazy story about when he was into the mental state for squatting the 1000lbs.
Anyways thanks for the replies brick, good shit. I do see how you put your conjugate method…do you always only have 1 heavy leg day, or do you sometimes put both of your leg days with maximum efforts as well?
[quote]rasturai wrote:
heyyy i was at the NERB in Massechusettes and saw Brian Siders actually do the lifts!! lol I was 16 years old then…I also saw Sam Byrd, Nick Winters, SGT Rock do 600x10 on the deadlift for exhibition…I chilled with Rampage Jackson for a while…talked to him for over half hour lol it was pretty sick.
SGT Rock also SOMEHOW I can’t even believe it but brought me n my friend backstage where ALL the lifters were warming up and shootin the shit.
Talked to Mike Miller…all nice guys…talked to Ed Coan…talk to Kirk Karwoski…haha captain kirk had some pretty crazy story about when he was into the mental state for squatting the 1000lbs.
Anyways thanks for the replies brick, good shit. I do see how you put your conjugate method…do you always only have 1 heavy leg day, or do you sometimes put both of your leg days with maximum efforts as well?[/quote]
You’d probably be destroyed if you did 1 to 3 rep maxes in deadlifts one day and squats another day. See my routine again. On ME days, it was a DL variation for three weeks, and a squat variation for three weeks.
The only time there was no speed training was when I experiment with this:
Day 1: Squat 5 x 5 scheme
Day 2: ME deadlift
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place? [/quote]
Here’s what I mean
say your PR is 600lbs in the pull,
so on training days you’re doing 400 which is well within your strength, so you do them really fast off the floor, explosive pull.
now if you move up to 550 or more that’s coming closer to your 600 PR, so pulling explosive off the floor with that weight might not be a good idea for you.
and don’t know about you, but I often pull just outside my range, that’s how I push myself to get new PRs.[/quote]
If you lift a weight, it’s in your range. After all, if it was outside of your range, you wouldn’t be able to lift it.
Anyway, it’s unwise to yank ANY deadlift off a floor and that’s not even how speed reps with very light weights are to be performed. The first pull is done pretty tight and steady. When it’s past the knees, then you can apply speed.
With a 1 to 5 rep max especially, you need to brace yourself, take the lax out of the bar, slowly grind up to the knees, and THEN explode through.
Even Olympic lifts don’t initiate the first pull (floor to knee level) in a snatch or clean explosively with weights they can easily deadlift. [/quote]
For someone who was complaining about people spouting off bullshit before…
To slowly pull the bar up to your knees and THEN explode the weight up is a good way to stall in the deadlift, especially for competitive powerlifting.
Almost every single competitive powerlifter pulls all of their deads as fast as they can off the floor. Including Andy Bolton.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place? [/quote]
Here’s what I mean
say your PR is 600lbs in the pull,
so on training days you’re doing 400 which is well within your strength, so you do them really fast off the floor, explosive pull.
now if you move up to 550 or more that’s coming closer to your 600 PR, so pulling explosive off the floor with that weight might not be a good idea for you.
and don’t know about you, but I often pull just outside my range, that’s how I push myself to get new PRs.[/quote]
If you lift a weight, it’s in your range. After all, if it was outside of your range, you wouldn’t be able to lift it.
Anyway, it’s unwise to yank ANY deadlift off a floor and that’s not even how speed reps with very light weights are to be performed. The first pull is done pretty tight and steady. When it’s past the knees, then you can apply speed.
With a 1 to 5 rep max especially, you need to brace yourself, take the lax out of the bar, slowly grind up to the knees, and THEN explode through.
Even Olympic lifts don’t initiate the first pull (floor to knee level) in a snatch or clean explosively with weights they can easily deadlift. [/quote]
What? This is terrible advice and a horrible example. If the entire deadlift isnt fast as shit, then you arent ever going to lift heavy weights.
The reason it looks like those olympic lifts arent explosive is because the weight is heavy as shit. They are lifting 100% not 50%. Heavy weight is going to move slower. Actually trying to slow the weight down has no advantage what so ever.
Think about what you are saying, it doesnt make any sense. Speed pulls should be slow off the floor? Thats nuts.
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place? [/quote]
Here’s what I mean
say your PR is 600lbs in the pull,
so on training days you’re doing 400 which is well within your strength, so you do them really fast off the floor, explosive pull.
now if you move up to 550 or more that’s coming closer to your 600 PR, so pulling explosive off the floor with that weight might not be a good idea for you.
and don’t know about you, but I often pull just outside my range, that’s how I push myself to get new PRs.[/quote]
If you lift a weight, it’s in your range. After all, if it was outside of your range, you wouldn’t be able to lift it.
Anyway, it’s unwise to yank ANY deadlift off a floor and that’s not even how speed reps with very light weights are to be performed. The first pull is done pretty tight and steady. When it’s past the knees, then you can apply speed.
With a 1 to 5 rep max especially, you need to brace yourself, take the lax out of the bar, slowly grind up to the knees, and THEN explode through.
Even Olympic lifts don’t initiate the first pull (floor to knee level) in a snatch or clean explosively with weights they can easily deadlift. [/quote]
What? This is terrible advice and a horrible example. If the entire deadlift isnt fast as shit, then you arent ever going to lift heavy weights.
The reason it looks like those olympic lifts arent explosive is because the weight is heavy as shit. They are lifting 100% not 50%. Heavy weight is going to move slower. Actually trying to slow the weight down has no advantage what so ever.
Think about what you are saying, it doesnt make any sense. Speed pulls should be slow off the floor? Thats nuts.[/quote]
I did NOT say Olympic lifts are to be performed slow. Otherwise they’d be impossible. You didn’t read my post carefully or I didn’t express myself clearly.
I now perform Olympic lift variations religiously (muscle snatches, power cleans, push jerks). Who in their right mind would be thinking of moving like molasses in these lifts. I wrote on the first pull - from floor to knee. It’s not a YANK! That’s what I meant. It’s a controlled, gradual buildup of speed throughout the lift.
You wrote the entire deadlift should be explosive as shit. If you have success with commencing the lift with a yank, who am I to tell you not do to it?
You don’t think I knew that the O lifts APPEAR slow despite them trying to move it as fast possible because they’re working with maximal weights? LOL!
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place? [/quote]
Here’s what I mean
say your PR is 600lbs in the pull,
so on training days you’re doing 400 which is well within your strength, so you do them really fast off the floor, explosive pull.
now if you move up to 550 or more that’s coming closer to your 600 PR, so pulling explosive off the floor with that weight might not be a good idea for you.
and don’t know about you, but I often pull just outside my range, that’s how I push myself to get new PRs.[/quote]
If you lift a weight, it’s in your range. After all, if it was outside of your range, you wouldn’t be able to lift it.
Anyway, it’s unwise to yank ANY deadlift off a floor and that’s not even how speed reps with very light weights are to be performed. The first pull is done pretty tight and steady. When it’s past the knees, then you can apply speed.
With a 1 to 5 rep max especially, you need to brace yourself, take the lax out of the bar, slowly grind up to the knees, and THEN explode through.
Even Olympic lifts don’t initiate the first pull (floor to knee level) in a snatch or clean explosively with weights they can easily deadlift. [/quote]
For someone who was complaining about people spouting off bullshit before…
To slowly pull the bar up to your knees and THEN explode the weight up is a good way to stall in the deadlift, especially for competitive powerlifting.
Almost every single competitive powerlifter pulls all of their deads as fast as they can off the floor. Including Andy Bolton.[/quote]
Did I say that people should NOT YANK or did I say they shouldn’t be explosive? If I expressed myself poorly, I apologize.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
When I was doing conjugated programs (which I used to do half the year), I did speed work every week for deadlifts and squats. Here’s how the plan looked.
Max Effort Day
Speed Day
The most basic shit in the world. No bands, no chains. I made great gains and never even thought I was in the position in which I could neglect or take a break from a lift or that I was so fast that I could afford to just do speed work here and there.
I’m NOT saying anyone has to do things the way I did or do because everyone makes progress in their OWN way. I’m just surprised when people use or talk of advice that doesn’t apply to most ORDINARY lifters. [/quote]
Yep, you had success because you understood the programming and followed it probably making small adjustments based on your indicator lifts or whatever you deemed important to your goals at the time and I would assume that you stuck with it for enough time to actually monitor your progress. Like you said…simple shit.
Unfortunately it seems half of the lifters on this board don’t seem to understand this premise regardless of how many times guys like Stu, Waylander, X, CC (and all the other guys who I can’t think of right now) say it.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]sumabeast wrote:
i’ve seen guys rip the barbell off the floor and explode up really fast, if that’s what you mean?
me, I can’t do that, and unless you’re pulling well within your strength range, pulling anything mzx or near max fast like that seems to me like looking for injury.[/quote]
Who would use weights outside of their strength range in the first place? [/quote]
Here’s what I mean
say your PR is 600lbs in the pull,
so on training days you’re doing 400 which is well within your strength, so you do them really fast off the floor, explosive pull.
now if you move up to 550 or more that’s coming closer to your 600 PR, so pulling explosive off the floor with that weight might not be a good idea for you.
and don’t know about you, but I often pull just outside my range, that’s how I push myself to get new PRs.[/quote]
If you lift a weight, it’s in your range. After all, if it was outside of your range, you wouldn’t be able to lift it.
Anyway, it’s unwise to yank ANY deadlift off a floor and that’s not even how speed reps with very light weights are to be performed. The first pull is done pretty tight and steady. When it’s past the knees, then you can apply speed.
With a 1 to 5 rep max especially, you need to brace yourself, take the lax out of the bar, slowly grind up to the knees, and THEN explode through.
Even Olympic lifts don’t initiate the first pull (floor to knee level) in a snatch or clean explosively with weights they can easily deadlift. [/quote]
For someone who was complaining about people spouting off bullshit before…
To slowly pull the bar up to your knees and THEN explode the weight up is a good way to stall in the deadlift, especially for competitive powerlifting.
Almost every single competitive powerlifter pulls all of their deads as fast as they can off the floor. Including Andy Bolton.[/quote]
Did I say that people should NOT YANK or did I say they shouldn’t be explosive? If I expressed myself poorly, I apologize. [/quote]
No, you didn’t express yourself poorly. You said “The first pull is done pretty tight and steady. When it’s past the knees, then you can apply speed.” describing a deadlift.
Pulling a deadlift off the floor slow ON PURPOSE is fucking retarded. Get down to the bar, pull the slack out of it so you don’t tear a bicep, then pull as hard and as fast as you can.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]rasturai wrote:
heyyy i was at the NERB in Massechusettes and saw Brian Siders actually do the lifts!! lol I was 16 years old then…I also saw Sam Byrd, Nick Winters, SGT Rock do 600x10 on the deadlift for exhibition…I chilled with Rampage Jackson for a while…talked to him for over half hour lol it was pretty sick.
SGT Rock also SOMEHOW I can’t even believe it but brought me n my friend backstage where ALL the lifters were warming up and shootin the shit.
Talked to Mike Miller…all nice guys…talked to Ed Coan…talk to Kirk Karwoski…haha captain kirk had some pretty crazy story about when he was into the mental state for squatting the 1000lbs.
Anyways thanks for the replies brick, good shit. I do see how you put your conjugate method…do you always only have 1 heavy leg day, or do you sometimes put both of your leg days with maximum efforts as well?[/quote]
You’d probably be destroyed if you did 1 to 3 rep maxes in deadlifts one day and squats another day. See my routine again. On ME days, it was a DL variation for three weeks, and a squat variation for three weeks.
The only time there was no speed training was when I experiment with this:
Day 1: Squat 5 x 5 scheme
Day 2: ME deadlift[/quote]
LOL tell me about it. I know all about doing deadlifts from floor 1-3RM and squats every week each week!
BESIDES THAT THOUGH…I don’t do that anymore. But with squats I can squat heavy 2x a week and be completely fine…deadlifts definately not I can’t do it. BUT deadlift variations NO problem.
I think ME on both days is COMPLETELY fine though. By ME though I don’t mean work up to a 3RM or 1RM. You can do SINGLES which people forget to do with 90%, or you can do doubles and tripes for sets. 3x3 etc. Which WILL build strength. Having something like this on both days is completely fine and do-able. For the longest time I squatted 2x a week, but barely deadlifted (hence why I seek deadlift help) but got my squat to 405x15…in oly shoes. All warmup sets are explosive as hell…I would also add in some various jumps, jump squats, vert jumps for height until performance drops off. I would do that for explosive work before workouts…as I always want to get my vertical jump higher.
I would consider myself to be a sub-par powerlifter . back in January I went to 4 a week WS/conjugate , including speed work for the squat and deadlift . DE squat was performed with bands , and DE deads was performed with straight weight , regular pulls and defecit pulls .
since beginning speed work I’ve PR’d on deads twice . first time when I hit 360 (350 previous to that) , and today for 375 .
no pulls from the floor were performed as ME work . I deadlifted only to test for maxes/PR’s (same thing I guess though)
ME lower work through-out this time span has been high box squat , low box squat , and rack pulls ; with good mornings / pull thrus done as accessory work on ME days .
I dont know what this means , other than my deadlift is moving without regular heavy pulling , only speed pulls .
I’ll be testing my squat in the next cycle .
I really don’t understand the ME/DE thing.
Well, I do… but a DE day should still be in effect a ME day.
If my max deadlift is 500lbs, I might do speed pulls with 225-315 plus bands/chains. If there’s only 350lbs of weight on the bar on the floor, I can still put all of my effort (max effort) into ripping the bar as fast as I can.
Even with straight weight, I can still lift 300lbs with 500lbs of force produced. If you apply anything less than as much force as you possibly can to that bar, you’re cheating yourself of making progress.