How Long Until Body Eats Muscle?

Diet and Nutrition
21

[quote]facko wrote:
All I can say is…I train fasted…at 6pm at that with just BCAAs 15mins before and more BCAAs during. I eat all of my food after I train at night. So…I go from 10pm the night before until approx. 7-8pm the following day with nothing but the BCAAs I had during training…

Yes…I’ve gained weight doing this.[/quote]

No DIS at all Fack, I am just being honest. You wrote that you train fasted. You are going great with it, no doubt. Butttt…I was 6’1" 162, and I don’t want that ever again. I see you are like 5’8" and 155, I don’t want that either. Maybe for Phyisique, but not for me.

My goal is 225. I’ve been skinny all my life, I don’t get the desire to be that thin, even if you are ripped to death. But, that does not make your goal wrong. :slight_smile: You are doing great man, I just am doing the opposite direction.

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.

22

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:
All I can say is…I train fasted…at 6pm at that with just BCAAs 15mins before and more BCAAs during. I eat all of my food after I train at night. So…I go from 10pm the night before until approx. 7-8pm the following day with nothing but the BCAAs I had during training…

Yes…I’ve gained weight doing this.[/quote]
Thats a pretty small feeding window. How much food do you manage to cram in? [/quote]

I have never been able to fit in more than one good meal in 3 hours…esp after training.

23

Wait a minute , I did fast, and have fasted before. Yesterday at lunch something didn’t agree with me, so for the rest of the day I had a couple protein shakes. Prolly once a quarter that happens. I fasted to get the crap outta my system, and also to bring my belly down a notch. (high metab. helps)
But I didn’t fast in order to gain and build muscle. But, it certainly is a popular trend/fad.

24

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at.

25

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at. [/quote]

I think fasting protocols have their place. I am a fan. They are nothing new, we were using them in the mid-eighties. I still have my resevations about using them to add muscle. I have never known anyone that managed to put on the 50-80 lbs of LBM that most men need to reach a lean height/weight ratio in the 2.75 - 3.00 range. That said…I’m all for what works!

26

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:
All I can say is…I train fasted…at 6pm at that with just BCAAs 15mins before and more BCAAs during. I eat all of my food after I train at night. So…I go from 10pm the night before until approx. 7-8pm the following day with nothing but the BCAAs I had during training…

Yes…I’ve gained weight doing this.[/quote]
Thats a pretty small feeding window. How much food do you manage to cram in? [/quote]

About 350g dry measure rice…1kg meat (raw measure)…say…4-6 servings of vegetables…and about 1.5 cups of kids cereal with whey protein…

27

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:
All I can say is…I train fasted…at 6pm at that with just BCAAs 15mins before and more BCAAs during. I eat all of my food after I train at night. So…I go from 10pm the night before until approx. 7-8pm the following day with nothing but the BCAAs I had during training…

Yes…I’ve gained weight doing this.[/quote]

No DIS at all Fack, I am just being honest. You wrote that you train fasted. You are going great with it, no doubt. Butttt…I was 6’1" 162, and I don’t want that ever again. I see you are like 5’8" and 155, I don’t want that either. Maybe for Phyisique, but not for me.

My goal is 225. I’ve been skinny all my life, I don’t get the desire to be that thin, even if you are ripped to death. But, that does not make your goal wrong. :slight_smile: You are doing great man, I just am doing the opposite direction.

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

Hey no probs man…I don’t disagree with you. I don’t want to stay at this weight. In fact, I was really skinny about 4 months or so ago…and since then using the protocol described I’ve gained 15lbs and actually lost bodyfat. I have to give some of that to muscle memory, but I do think backloading all my calories around training has made a major difference.

That said…I haven’t even come close to bulk level calories…at most I ate 2400kcal on training days and 1600-1800kcal on rest days and managed to put on that weight. I’m starting a legitimate bulk on the same IF schedule in about 4 weeks after I cut the remaining bodyfat that I feel I can get rid off without losing muscle…

28

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at. [/quote]

I think fasting protocols have their place. I am a fan. They are nothing new, we were using them in the mid-eighties. I still have my resevations about using them to add muscle. I have never known anyone that managed to put on the 50-80 lbs of LBM that most men need to reach a lean height/weight ratio in the 2.75 - 3.00 range. That said…I’m all for what works!
[/quote]

Is that because the protocol couldnt allow that or that people gravitate towards the norm from the outset and only try ‘strange’ things like IF as a way to change things?

The people I know that have used IF successfully are people that are relatively advanced. Making gains at a more adavanced stage in universally accepted as more difficult than newbie gains. Deductive reasoning leads me to beleive that a newb would fair just as well than an advanced person.

29

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at. [/quote]

Soooooo gains from fasting = potential UNLIMITED Mass Gains ? Like, over a few hundred years? :slight_smile:
There is no doubt guys have made gains using IF. You mention that two guys made gains with IF. Good, and again, no doubt…never said it was impossible. But I don’t sincerely think you can make totally unlimited gains in only one lifetime using IF. That statement alone, is undoubtedly false.

30

[quote]facko wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:
All I can say is…I train fasted…at 6pm at that with just BCAAs 15mins before and more BCAAs during. I eat all of my food after I train at night. So…I go from 10pm the night before until approx. 7-8pm the following day with nothing but the BCAAs I had during training…

Yes…I’ve gained weight doing this.[/quote]

No DIS at all Fack, I am just being honest. You wrote that you train fasted. You are going great with it, no doubt. Butttt…I was 6’1" 162, and I don’t want that ever again. I see you are like 5’8" and 155, I don’t want that either. Maybe for Phyisique, but not for me.

My goal is 225. I’ve been skinny all my life, I don’t get the desire to be that thin, even if you are ripped to death. But, that does not make your goal wrong. :slight_smile: You are doing great man, I just am doing the opposite direction.

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

Hey no probs man…I don’t disagree with you. I don’t want to stay at this weight. In fact, I was really skinny about 4 months or so ago…and since then using the protocol described I’ve gained 15lbs and actually lost bodyfat. I have to give some of that to muscle memory, but I do think backloading all my calories around training has made a major difference.

That said…I haven’t even come close to bulk level calories…at most I ate 2400kcal on training days and 1600-1800kcal on rest days and managed to put on that weight. I’m starting a legitimate bulk on the same IF schedule in about 4 weeks after I cut the remaining bodyfat that I feel I can get rid off without losing muscle…[/quote]

YOU, Sir, are the first person to show me how you are doing it, and how it can therefore, be done. :slight_smile: You have my ear. Very honest to throw in that first 15 to possible muscle memory…and I would like to hear more on the next cycle. What you said above, going much lower in kcals on off days and going 2400 on training days…makes good sense.

Let me ask you a question…I can see 1600-1800 on rest days…are you really fasting from …I think you said like 10:00 PM on the evening of a training day, to …how late in the morning on the rest day that follows? (I just can’t get my arms around thinking that fasting can be done in shorter periods of time when you are awake. And that is all on me…I always think of fasting like a whole day…which would include the night before, and after…
And that is my fault for not addressing fasting as a half day after a night’s sleep, for ex…)

Another one is…do you do that fast period every single rest day?

Thanks for the input…good stuff.

31

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at. [/quote]

Soooooo gains from fasting = potential UNLIMITED Mass Gains ? Like, over a few hundred years? :slight_smile:
There is no doubt guys have made gains using IF. You mention that two guys made gains with IF. Good, and again, no doubt…never said it was impossible. But I don’t sincerely think you can make totally unlimited gains in only one lifetime using IF. That statement alone, is undoubtedly false.[/quote]

Theres a limit to how much muscle someone gains regardless of when they eat their calories. What are you saying?

Do you actually think THAT was the aspect of your post that I disputed? Come on, use some common sense.

What you meant by your post is that you cant gain as much muscle doing IF compared to traidtional eating. That’s wrong. And that’s clearly what you were trying to say because if you were just saying that the human body is limited in how much muscle can be gained, then you stated something completely obvious that has never been disputed.

32

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at. [/quote]

Soooooo gains from fasting = potential UNLIMITED Mass Gains ? Like, over a few hundred years? :slight_smile:
There is no doubt guys have made gains using IF. You mention that two guys made gains with IF. Good, and again, no doubt…never said it was impossible. But I don’t sincerely think you can make totally unlimited gains in only one lifetime using IF. That statement alone, is undoubtedly false.[/quote]

Theres a limit to how much muscle someone gains regardless of when they eat their calories. What are you saying?

Do you actually think THAT was the aspect of your post that I disputed? Come on, use some common sense.

What you meant by your post is that you cant gain as much muscle doing IF compared to traidtional eating. That’s wrong. And that’s clearly what you were trying to say because if you were just saying that the human body is limited in how much muscle can be gained, then you stated something completely obvious that has never been disputed.

[/quote]

I would be honored, if you didn’t put words in my mouth…that would help a lot.

“Theres a limit to how much muscle someone gains regardless of when they eat their calories. What are you saying?” If you are trying to make me look dumb, and you smart…that’s a great way to do it. OKay…you are smart, I am not…whatever you need, you got it.

Right. I say you can’t gain as much with IF as you can without. You say you can.
Nope. That would mean that you could see inside your body and be able to train so that
your nutrition needs were only at the times when you feed more.

If you eat all the time…how could you NOT get bigger. And, how can you tell if you IF, if you fast at an incorrect time? What window do you have to look inside your body to see that? And, further more, how do you properly, and perfectly match the fasting to your training…and do it exactly? Training hard, training a new body part, etc, they all affect the growth rate. How can you look inside your body and see what that is?

DOH and the other dude are huge. No doubt about it.

I won’t put words in your mouth, and say you said this, because its rude. But I will ask…
Did they train from day one with I F ? That would be… a miracle.

If it was that great, I would think Arnold would have done it.

33

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at. [/quote]

Soooooo gains from fasting = potential UNLIMITED Mass Gains ? Like, over a few hundred years? :slight_smile:
There is no doubt guys have made gains using IF. You mention that two guys made gains with IF. Good, and again, no doubt…never said it was impossible. But I don’t sincerely think you can make totally unlimited gains in only one lifetime using IF. That statement alone, is undoubtedly false.[/quote]

Theres a limit to how much muscle someone gains regardless of when they eat their calories. What are you saying?

Do you actually think THAT was the aspect of your post that I disputed? Come on, use some common sense.

What you meant by your post is that you cant gain as much muscle doing IF compared to traidtional eating. That’s wrong. And that’s clearly what you were trying to say because if you were just saying that the human body is limited in how much muscle can be gained, then you stated something completely obvious that has never been disputed.

[/quote]

I would be honored, if you didn’t put words in my mouth…that would help a lot.

“Theres a limit to how much muscle someone gains regardless of when they eat their calories. What are you saying?” If you are trying to make me look dumb, and you smart…that’s a great way to do it. OKay…you are smart, I am not…whatever you need, you got it.

Right. I say you can’t gain as much with IF as you can without. You say you can.
Nope. That would mean that you could see inside your body and be able to train so that
your nutrition needs were only at the times when you feed more.

If you eat all the time…how could you NOT get bigger. And, how can you tell if you IF, if you fast at an incorrect time? What window do you have to look inside your body to see that? And, further more, how do you properly, and perfectly match the fasting to your training…and do it exactly? Training hard, training a new body part, etc, they all affect the growth rate. How can you look inside your body and see what that is?

DOH and the other dude are huge. No doubt about it.

I won’t put words in your mouth, and say you said this, because its rude. But I will ask…
Did they train from day one with I F ? That would be… a miracle.

If it was that great, I would think Arnold would have done it.[/quote]

You dont seem to actually know the purpose of IF.

Youre coming up with excuses for why it may not work in theory. When there are dozens of testimonals showing how it does work. Further, your questions about ‘windows’ and whatever are answered when you learn about what IF entails.

What does starting from day one have to do with whether an IF approach allows for the same potential growth?

What dont you understand about the fact that somoene eating 4000 calories in an 8 hour time frame. is able to make gains just as well as someone eating 4000 calories (same macros) in a 16 hour time frame. Why do you think that’s impossible?

Do you also beleive that people need post workout carbs to make gains?

And that traiing on an empty stomach will catabolize muscle too?

34

The mere fact that you thought I was focusing on the word ‘unlimited’ in your post shows youre pretty lost as to what actually matters.

No protocol allows for UNLIMITED gains. How could you possibly think that anyone would claim that. Its mind boggling that such a statment even needed to be made.

Respond how you want. I dont really care what you think is possible with IF vs regular eating. I was simply pointing out that your intuition was not based on anything but a wild guess.

35

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

This is undoubtedly false.

When you eat your calories is not nearly as important as how many calories you eat. Your body doesnt work on the same clock that your brain does.

For example.

Josh86 and DOHCrazy have both made gains while doing IF. Look at pics if you’d like

If you dont want to do it, thats totally ok. That doesnt mean it doesnt work. That’s a ridiculous conclusion to arise at. [/quote]

I think fasting protocols have their place. I am a fan. They are nothing new, we were using them in the mid-eighties. I still have my resevations about using them to add muscle. I have never known anyone that managed to put on the 50-80 lbs of LBM that most men need to reach a lean height/weight ratio in the 2.75 - 3.00 range. That said…I’m all for what works!
[/quote]

Is that because the protocol couldnt allow that or that people gravitate towards the norm from the outset and only try ‘strange’ things like IF as a way to change things?

The people I know that have used IF successfully are people that are relatively advanced. Making gains at a more adavanced stage in universally accepted as more difficult than newbie gains. Deductive reasoning leads me to beleive that a newb would fair just as well than an advanced person. [/quote]

36

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:

[quote]facko wrote:
All I can say is…I train fasted…at 6pm at that with just BCAAs 15mins before and more BCAAs during. I eat all of my food after I train at night. So…I go from 10pm the night before until approx. 7-8pm the following day with nothing but the BCAAs I had during training…

Yes…I’ve gained weight doing this.[/quote]

No DIS at all Fack, I am just being honest. You wrote that you train fasted. You are going great with it, no doubt. Butttt…I was 6’1" 162, and I don’t want that ever again. I see you are like 5’8" and 155, I don’t want that either. Maybe for Phyisique, but not for me.

My goal is 225. I’ve been skinny all my life, I don’t get the desire to be that thin, even if you are ripped to death. But, that does not make your goal wrong. :slight_smile: You are doing great man, I just am doing the opposite direction.

I just cannot get away from fasting = limiting muscle mass gain. You can put on muscle, but there is a limit.[/quote]

Hey no probs man…I don’t disagree with you. I don’t want to stay at this weight. In fact, I was really skinny about 4 months or so ago…and since then using the protocol described I’ve gained 15lbs and actually lost bodyfat. I have to give some of that to muscle memory, but I do think backloading all my calories around training has made a major difference.

That said…I haven’t even come close to bulk level calories…at most I ate 2400kcal on training days and 1600-1800kcal on rest days and managed to put on that weight. I’m starting a legitimate bulk on the same IF schedule in about 4 weeks after I cut the remaining bodyfat that I feel I can get rid off without losing muscle…[/quote]

YOU, Sir, are the first person to show me how you are doing it, and how it can therefore, be done. :slight_smile: You have my ear. Very honest to throw in that first 15 to possible muscle memory…and I would like to hear more on the next cycle. What you said above, going much lower in kcals on off days and going 2400 on training days…makes good sense.

Let me ask you a question…I can see 1600-1800 on rest days…are you really fasting from …I think you said like 10:00 PM on the evening of a training day, to …how late in the morning on the rest day that follows? (I just can’t get my arms around thinking that fasting can be done in shorter periods of time when you are awake. And that is all on me…I always think of fasting like a whole day…which would include the night before, and after…
And that is my fault for not addressing fasting as a half day after a night’s sleep, for ex…)

Another one is…do you do that fast period every single rest day?

Thanks for the input…good stuff.
[/quote]

I really appreciate the kind words, bro. Lemme try my best to answer your questions…

Most people I know follow a 16/8 schedule…so in regards to me that would mean I could initiate eating at approx. 2pm and end eating at approx. 10pm. This would work well with a pre-training meal at 2pm to break the fast and then train a couple of hours later, then eat the rest of my food in 2 bigger meals. However, I typically don’t have a pre-training meal…instead I’ll just go all the way until I train without eating and have about 10g BCAAs before and another 10g BCAAs during then ALL of my food after in about 3-4 hours time. This is on training days. I believe this meets your normally thought criteria for a fast because it entails the practically the better half of the day. Even if the fast was broken at 2pm (which I will do once in a while with a pre-training meal depending on how I feel)…I think that still fits your normal idea for a fast because I’m going until the afternoon with no food.

On rest days I sometimes break the fast at 2pm but, a lot of times I’ll just go all the way until dinner at about 6pm so that I can have 1 large meal with my fam and then another large meal a few hours later. If I eat at 2pm…it doesn’t leave much room for a final meal at night and therefore…I’ll end up eating a meal at 2pm and a meal at 6pm and that creates too long of a fast period for me. So…it’s easier all around if I just wait until dinner time on my rest days. This also seems to be better for me in terms of satiety because 1. the meals are larger and I have more breathing room on what I can eat with a low calorie allotment and 2. I’m actually not too hungry throughout the fast itself (I do get brief feelings of hunger that come in waves so to speak…but, they go away after some water)…however, once I initiate eating, I’ll tend to want to continue eating. In other words…the eating of a small meal will spark my hunger much more so than not eating anything at all.

37

Tx: read that last post of the exchange. In case you missed it.

I have a reason for believing that IF works. Whats your reason? Aside from your gut feeling.

38

[quote]txhawkeyes wrote:
your nutrition needs were only at the times when you feed more.
[/quote]

Wrong. This is incorrectly assuming protein or even fat synthesis is faster than eating. If this were true there would be a few hundred more Ronnie Colemans.

This is also assuming stomach emptying and digestion is faster than what you can eat. Your whole thought process on intermittent fasting is off.

OP - there are a million factors that go into what you are asking but in general the body is constantly creating and eating muscle. Hormones determine what state your in. Overall Testosterone and Insulin build muscle, insulin does tend to rise when you eat however when you eat too much you start to build resistance… it can go on and on if you want to over think it that much get a nutrition book. If your friend can’t get enough calories during the day then yes his body will need the peanut butter, but if he does get the calories then the peanut butter stands a chance of just going unused.

39

Ok Facko thank you for answering some questions instead of just telling me to go f myself. lol I really don’t understand the purpose of looking at questions if your answer is “look it up yourself”, so thanks. Would you suggest taking BCAA’s or some pure protein like egg whites in the morning?

40

[quote]Blind-Sight MA wrote:
Ok Facko thank you for answering some questions instead of just telling me to go f myself. lol I really don’t understand the purpose of looking at questions if your answer is “look it up yourself”, so thanks. Would you suggest taking BCAA’s or some pure protein like egg whites in the morning? [/quote]

IMO it depends on your goals. I would probably use BCAAs if looking to gain muscle on an IF style diet. If you are looking to lose fat I wouldnt use them. BCAAs are still going to stimulate an insulin response at the time you want to keep it low to maximise fat burning. But I wouldnt use a protein with a full amino acid profile in either situation.