T Nation

How Long Does it Take to Know if You've Crashed E2?


#21

This may not lower e2. Why do people like @physioLojik say they have closer to zero patients injecting more than 2x a week?


#22

Bingo.
If they want testosterone everyday they should go on gels


#23

You don’t know if you don’t try, nothing ventured, nothing gained. It works for a lot of people, this is not an opinion, it’s a fact.

All the experts are saying increase injection frequencies when running into estrogen issues, you are likely to aromatase less when less is injected.


#24

That’s true but it kills at least another 2 months.


#25

Yes but that does not mean to take it to the EXTREME like you and the two clowns over on EM have. The bottle instructions say 1 shot twice a month. EOW.
The current recommendations are twice a week not twice a month. I have seen no doctor recommend everyday injections with T e or T cyp.
Defy says sure go ahead knock yourself out and try everyday. That does not mean they recommend it or they prescrib it. Defy says yes to anything that is not stupid or dangerous that is why we love them.


#26

Actually it was Dr. Saya that suggested everyday injections for men having estrogen issues after over-responding to AI. It’s better to do daily injections v.s going the AI route.

Daily injections isn’t dangerous and sometimes it’s necessary.


#27

I’ve been on TRT on various doses for about 2 years.
300mg Every other week
100mg/week once
50mg twice a week
25-30 mg EOD.

I also did an 8 month stint on axiron a few years back.

Never have found libido.

@systemlord Why can’t I get e2 down with arimidex while keeping my test higher? I like the feeling of higher test.


#28

I have zero patients on more than two injections a week. You guys can and do do what you think is best.


#29

This is one the bigger misunderstandings of TRT and why this gets so demonized. TRT is just that…therapy. It’s purpose is to bring you to stable NORMAL levels. You aren’t supposed to feel like Superman, you’re supposed to get to a point where you DONT FEEL LIKE SHIT. You’re also supposed to have a normal range (not too high, not too low) where you aren’t putting yourself in a serious risk population of having other issues like heart problems.

If you like the feeling of high test levels, and who wouldn’t, then dial in your TRT properly and run a blast twice a year. That’s why it’s called a blast. Your body is trying to stabilize all the time. You keep the test too high for too long, then you will aromatase E to try and balance that out. You can’t sustain an abnormally high level forever man. Won’t work.

Now that begs the question as to what level is too high? Can’t answer that specifically but I can tell you this…If the level you’re at is driving E too high, then it’s too high. If you would like to tweak that threshold, reduce your BF% and then dial it up a little.


#30

Good advices and great post

I don’t want to feel like superman. I just want to be optimal I guess.

I think “feeling good” and libido are found at different levels of E2.

Then again, what does it feel like to hit the sweet spot?


#31

Not sure if you’re married or have a significant other, but if you do then you wife or gf could probably answer that for you! Lol!!

All joking aside though brother, when you start seeing hormones out of balance in relation to each other, that’s your body’s way of telling you something is wrong. We can “push the envelope” on purpose from time to time, but sooner or later your body will try to stabilize. That’s what it does. That’s why we get fat…we eat too much fuel, don’t burn it off (whether that’s through lack of exercise or some other defieciency in our body), and the body says “well, I guess I have to create more surface area to put all this shit because I can’t eliminate it as fast as he’s putting it in!” Lol


#32

But In order to get my e2 down, is have to drop total test down to like 500 as my low shbg causes a fast comversion to e2.


#33

What is your Free T when your Total is @ 500?

I too have a low SHGB. My total is 496 but my Free T is tipping the top of the scale.


#34

If you can get a higher Test that you can’t get without an AI, that’s fine but you’ll need a dexa scan from time to time to keep an eye on mineral bone density.

Insurance won’t pay for the dexa scan.


#35

Why? I had one pre trt. They pay. Testosterone deficiency Dx.

I don’t even need pre Auth. We can’t assume everyone’s insurance sux


#36

@roscoe88
“But In order to get my e2 down, is have to drop total test down to like 500 as my low shbg causes a fast comversion to e2.”

No your FreeT being out of range is why you are aromatizing(sp?) T to E2.
Once I stopped looking at my TT and started dialing my Free T in to the upper range but NEVER over range even on peak days. Everything fell into place. No AI, no blood donations no HCT issues. My SHGB runs between 22-29

Little know fact when you have a crap load of Free T (over range) you have a crap load of Free E2 that is whats making you feel so bad. hth


#37

You need to quantify this statement. Plenty of people run near 2000 T, and over with no sides and have zero risk of “heart problems”. What serious risks and what heart problems are you taking about? This is playing that game of number chasing again.


#38

Your right that the statement could be quantified a little more.

FACT - Excess Testosterone in men over a long period of time can (and in most cases does) cause enlargement of the heart muscle and increases the risk of a heart attack.

Another Fact (not heart related but just as serious) - is that testosterone stimulates the prostate gland. Now where there have been myths floating around that T CAUSES prostate cancer, and we have thankfully had that myth put to bed (even though a lot of doctors still believe this), if you do develop prostate cancer then T can accelerate the growth of that. Having T in excess of your natural balanced range could exasperate that stimulation effect.

Now to quantify…what does “excess” mean? Unfortunately that can’t be answered specifically as there is no “number” that is correct across the board. This number is unique to each person and their body type, along with their unique bio makeup.

This is why I would highly encourage all men between 23 and 25 (and wish to God that I would have myself) to go and get a full hormonal profile done when they are young and feeling verile and strong, providing that they aren’t already hormonally fucked up. That one snapshot in time would be the perfect reference of their own unique hormonal balance. Unfortunately, most of us never have that done and don’t even think about it until we are already having problems.

That’s why this statement was generalized in the first place. The BEST advice that I can give to the OP on where his levels should be is exactly what i stated in my post. He needs to find his individual “normal” range, and to do that, he’s going to have to try a few things and wait until he has stabilized, and see where those levels are at. Then he can go by whether or not he is having other issues (like high or low E2 symptoms, or other hormone markers shooting through the roof) at those levels. If so, the dosage can be tweaked a little and go for another round.


#39

With all due respect, I need some citations on these. Now a days high levels of testosterone are being used to TREAT BPH. And the data on TRT and prostate cancer is vague at best: “As large, randomized placebo-controlled trials are lacking, the uncertainty surrounding the safety of TT and prostate cancer will remain. Nevertheless, most published studies are reassuring, with most of the discrepancy likely due to methodologic and patient heterogeneity. Current professional society guidelines for testosterone supplementation provide appropriate recommendations for proper patient treatment and monitoring” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709428/

A smaller study showing testosterone treatment on prostate cancer showed favorable results here: http://www.cancernetwork.com/prostate-cancer/can-testosterone-treat-prostate-cancer


#40

Sure.

Here’s an excerpt from an article written by Harvard University. Surprisingly, their views on TRT are more progressive than you would think.

The entire article can be read here.