T Nation

How Long Can Acute Protocol Change Symptoms Last?

I’m exactly eight weeks into my latest protocol change - a 25% drop in dose - and I’m still getting some very acute “dose change” symptoms. Some low sugar episodes which only happen to me on a T dose change, crazy ball sweating, sweat rashes on chest, anxiety swings that appear out of nowhere…

Overall I’ve felt consistently amazing for two weeks and I don’t want to change a fucking thing about this protocol. Can I expect this to continue for a while? I’ve gotten stuff on past changes like this but they generally go away by this point.

Is it normal for hormones to still be fucking around after eight weeks? What are your experiences?

Any possibility that it is the reduction in dose itself that is making you feel off? Any possibility that your body preferred the higher dose? What compelled you to lower your dose by 25%? Big change.

It’s a long dumb story, dbossa. For anyone who has had anywhere near the patience to read my log, just skip this post.

I was originally on 80mg a week 1x for a year. It improved me a lot from Low T, but was too much of a roller coaster so I switched to 2x.

Because of some very large, very stingy syringes, I ended up actually on 40mg (split 2x) - so half the dose I thought I was on - for about 15 weeks and felt mostly incredible but not quite right.

I then switched to much smaller syringes and accidentally put myself back on 80mg (this time split 2x - I say accidentally but I thought I had always been doing 80 - 100mg) for about 10 weeks which was causing a very fast resting heart rate and me to not feel good, but not so amazing most of the time. I also found that anything higher than 80mg gave me some terrible experiences, which is what caused me to really dig into how much I was actually injecting all this time, and discovered the offending syringes.

So I reduced my dose but didn’t want to go all the way back down to 40 in case 60 is better. Also it’s a large reduction. I am getting many things back on 60 that have not been around for five years - well before TRT - and feeling incredible. But I’m still getting some weirdness and it’s doing my head in. I know said weirdness might not be related to T but shit it’s the same weirdness I usually go through when I switch protocols. Just usually not so late.

You’re definitly one of those rare guys, like @systemlord, who does better on much lower doses and can’t handle what the rest of us take. To me it sounds like there are other things going on here. Have you looked into thyroid at all just to see if there’s anything strange going in there?

I haven’t. It’s always been normal but I’ve never done a deep panel. I will ask my doctor when I see him.

Normal isn’t always actually normal, kind of like how “normal” T can actually still be pretty low

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Fair enough!

And again. The majority of guys on TRT who wish to restore normal levels of T are on a dose of 50 to 100 mg. This forum here attracts and is biased towards lifters which might just have different expectations.
An average T level of 1000 to 2000 ng/dL just isn’t physiological for a guy in his 40s or 50s. Set aside if it’s safe long term.

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Although I dont totally agree with you on your stance, I absolutely agree that especially 1500-2000 and above was not proven safe long term in any way. Lack of evidence it is harmful is not evidence it is safe. But it becomes more complex because the free test is what matters.
But lets not forget 1500 was officialy physiological 10 years ago so no way our biology has changed for 10 years, right?

All I know is 80mg once a week was getting me close to 1200 near peak. Twice a week I’m guessing it was higher. I started at around 170 and was probably never a high T guy.

  1. Current ref range is based on samples from the early 2000s

  2. Just because the higher end might has been over 1000 doesn’t mean it’s safe for everybody

  3. It’s discussed highly controversially if T levels in fact have declined or not

‚Several European studies have reported declines in sperm counts over the last 50 years (e.g., [2,3], which indirectly imply changes in testosterone levels, but the reports have lacked consistency, with other studies from the same countries reporting no changes [4] or increases in sperm counts [5]. Studies in the United States have been slightly more consistent, reporting either no changes [6] or increasing sperm counts [7] which in turn imply no changes or increasing levels of serum testosterone levels in American men. This inference, however, is contradicted by a study in American men reporting a decrease in men’s testosterone levels of 1.2% per year [8].

One inference from the increase in FWH ratios is that testosterone levels have increased in American men over the last 120 years. These findings are in agreement with those studies reporting on increased sperm counts [5,7] and are not necessarily in conflict with a previous study that directly measured testosterone levels in males beginning at 45 years of age [8]. While the data from that study support the conclusion that testosterone levels have declined, that conclusion needs to be tempered with the fact that the men in that study were mainly beyond typical reproductive age, and may in fact have not experienced such declines from their peak reproductive years by the time they were tested.‘

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I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you.

If all the men I’ve spoken to, and you can probably guess it’s been quite a bit at this point, the ones on less than 100mg a week are probably less than 5%. The average dose I’m seeing is 150mg a week.

@dbossa Based on wording, I think johann77’s goal is different than the guys you’ve talked to.
Johann specifically mentions “return to normal levels” and 50-100mg / per week would probably get most guys back in range.
The guys you’re talking to may either be outliers or just being normal isn’t their goal they want to be great.
Just speculating.

The biggest issue we see is guys being told to target the ‘normal range’, and usually end up symptomatic. Tons and tons and tons of guys who say, “My doc says my levels are normal now so I’m fine… but I don’t feel fine…?” These are the docs that are doing 50-100mg weekly. I see zero point in striving to obtain a number. Zero.

Most of the men are normal range even before they start TRT

I agree completely, what’s the point if not symptom resolution. Though at some point it may be worth investigating other cofactors as you’ve gotten to the place that low test levels clearly aren’t the continuing cause. I don’t really think though that most guys get to that point.

I’m pulling from a rather biased sample though.

I understand, I felt that there were two different goals being discussed and as such the methods were different. In range vs feel good/great or optimized.

Anyway around this forum, you are correct, however, universally, I do not know that to be correct.

I cannot imagine anyone would go into TRT and wouldnt want to be optimal

@vonko1988 I can imagine that most guys have never given it a second thought and have no idea what you mean by optimal. Again forum members are a skewed group.

I’d wager most guys probably take their 150-200mg injection once every 2 weeks and never think about it even once in between.

You will not optimal patients at 50mg weekly, you might be barely in range, but my endo doesn’t allow his parents over 400 ng/dL, not a problem for me. You get diagnosed with low T at 350 and doctors only allows for a 50 ng/dL increase and calls it treatment.

Most guys need at least 100mg or more to feel good, too many guys are kept in the lower range where the symptoms are still present. There are some people in the population who are clearly resistant to hormones and need higher levels to feel normal.

And again you’re not learning, you are blocking it out. If I didn’t know any better, I would say you are a doctor or are trying to be one because you’re overly fixating on the reference ranges like it’s the word of God or the bible.