How Little Can You Train - And Still Progress?

Dr Darden,

A question about how little is required? What is your opinion on this? Anyone else with interesting experiences?

I guess Arthur Jones started this transition, later taken to (and perhaps over) the limit by Mike Mentzer - where intensity were to compensate for less frequency and volume. More recently, Dr Darden’s 30-10-30 program was introduced here, once weekly it provided results to show in a small study (presented in an article here on Tnation).

The question is not that easy to answer, taking into account the balance in between frequency, volume and intensity. There seems to be a fine line where you simply can’t compensate for lack of frequency. Perhaps in respect of the “anabolic window” - where growth stimulus is kept operational post-workout for a certain amount of time. Maybe even the level of daily activities in general - or lack thereof - is of importance? Obviously stress, diet and supplementation by for instance creatine can affect the muscle sparing abilities (not forgetting PEDs).

Me, I have been on a Darden individualized routine alternated with periodizations of Fortitude Training and Brian Johnston routines - full-body, twice weekly for the past 3 years. I believe I still make progress, experimenting with a little bit more volume or intensity here and there. The odd thing is that this actually works for me. I didn’t make any better progress during my high volume, high frequency years back when I was much younger.

So, how little can you train - and still progress?

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I think this depends greatly on where you’re starting point is. If a total gym newbie is asking it - 2x a month would be a 200% increase. But if you’re already quite muscularly develped…

Anyways, I’ll exit the conversation - just dropping my 2 pennies in here.

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That is something you can only find out for yourself. Trial and error.

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Almost a century ago, minimal routines of 2x/week and a handful of exercises were the norm. Mark Berry, J.C. Hise, Peary Rader, where are you now? Then along came Weider, and drugs! The power of propaganda and misinformation!

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Well…you can’t start with zero and make progress, therefore, you start with 1 and go from there

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This is a big misconception that the old school guys did these minimalist routines. By the statements of their own routines the original champions like Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, and Reg Park they did a lot more volume than you want to say they did.

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I never mentioned these names!

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My answer is that the majority of lifters past the absolute beginner stage need at least two total body lifting sessions per week and the volume of those sessions needs to be fairly significant to progress. I would say this is a bare minimum to make some progress. For lifters who are well trained, more frequency and volume will be needed to continue to progress. And I think if a lifter is trying to develop specific lifts (like a powerlifter), frequency is even more important for the skill acquisition/perfection component.

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Something I’m continually experimenting with in order to find the minimum effective dose, and as yet, I don’t have a definitive answer.

In all honesty, I think the answer is very little. Very, very little.

Truthfully, I believe most people mystify weight training to make it seem like it’s necessary to do far more than you have to for various reasons, which often includes rationalising their feelings and sensations around training, because in truth many will simply enjoy the routine that comes with going to the gym for two hours a day, five days a week, while some might just enjoy the internal sensations from the repetitions, as if it’s soothing or therapeutic. That’s fine. It doesn’t mean it’s actually necessary for muscle growth or even productive to do so.

One of the reasons I related to Mentzer so much was that he was one of the few figures I’ve seen who has a similar outlook to myself in that training is more of a means to an end in order to accomplish a very specific goal, to be done in a time efficient manner, rather than something done for the sake of enjoyment, whether people admit to it or not. Ultimately, there are plenty of other important things in life to be getting on with rather than spending needless hours hanging around the weight room.

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Great comment!

Arthur Jones championed intense workouts. He championed short duration workouts. He also chased hypertrophic workouts.
Longevity in life does not necessitate hypertrophic workouts, but rather longevity is related to strength. Even so, extreme powerlifting strength workouts are not needed either.
Minimalist workouts can be sustained for years and can lead to improvements that sustains strength. These minimalist workouts can supplement a longevity lifestyle.
I feel modern HiT methodology (more sets/more workouts) has missed an opportunity to champion minimalist workouts. “Modern Iron Man” workouts for healthy bodies and minds should be pursued by HiT practitioners. Good riddance for unhealthy narcissism that can be related to poor choices that bodybuilding lifestyles bring. Minimalist workouts could have been the calling card of a modern healthy HiT style workout. Bodily training is only beneficial for a little! What could be!

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Just because you don’t like Bodybuilding or Bodybuilding Focused Training doesn’t make it useless. It promotes training every muscle which creates balance not only in appearance but in the muscle function as well. There’s also nothing wrong with wanting to look good! Achieving an awesome physique or lofty strength goals is not only fun and rewarding, but it’s a very healthy hobby and a great outlet for many. I lift weights 4-5 days a week and I’m always giddy with excitement about my sessions, outside of spending time with my wife, my workout is one of my very favorite parts of the day.

We aren’t all searching for the bare ass minimum to maintain some modest level of tissue, some of us want to push ourselves and our physique to the limit. And there’s nothing wrong with that!

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Mr. DM,

One of the reasons posting on the internet has decreased significantly is a reply to another poster with straw man arguments attached.

No remedies seem to exist for this phenomenon other than disengage from posting.

No where did I imply I did not like bodybuilding or bodybuilding training. What is useless is an overemphasis on bodily training of any kind to the point of narcissistic behaviors .

I like to look good also within modest limits. An awesome physique is not possible for the vast majority due to genetics, but longevity can be a reasonable goal, and is quite attainable for the majority . Longevity can look good and feel good also.

Lifting 4-5 times weekly is not something Arthur Jones promoted, ditto Dr. Darden,. I can’t afford training 4-5 times weekly, and I have an extensive basement gym.

Need I remind the original post was
“How Little Can You Train”
Therefore, my post was appropriate for this particular thread. Feel free to post about your feelings about bodybuilding and your workouts of 4-5 times weekly—— on other appropriate threads. Perhaps then more posters will participate and benefit instead of feeling attacked for something they did not state or promote.

Have a good day😀

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Since this thread got bumped, I did want to point out that this wasn’t true 150 years ago, before Mark Berry. The training systems that you got when you bought a set of barbells (even at Mark Berry’s company) had like 15 exercises you did every session, 3x a week.

It was far from minimalist.

EDIT: It was, however, a single set of those 15 exercises.

Peary’s abbreviated programme detailed here comes from his excellent book, the Rader Master Bodybuilding and Weight Gaining System.

  1. Breathing Bench Press – 12 reps

  2. Breathing Barbell Rows – 12 reps

  3. Breathing Squats – 20 reps (1st set) [any other sets do 10 reps]

supersetted with

  1. Breathing Pullovers – 20 reps (Using a Barbell weighing no more than 20lbs)
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I trained my girlfriend a while back on a twice a week routine similar to this and worked very well. It was squat or leg press, pulldown, and chest press (on leverage machines/Powertec).

Interesting.

You may be interested in that Drew Baye has eerily similar low volume minimalist type routines, albeit SuperSlow, which suffice for his purposes.

We also varied the sets per exercise, usually 1-2. Sometimes even 3.

I like it!

At my age, whole body routines are hard to stick to. I still like hard training, and training strategical areas. Training Bodybuilding style is not an option at my age. BIG is not something I am interested in anymore.

Interestingly a study tracked this

“Long-Term Time-Course of Strength Adaptation to Minimal Dose Resistance Training Through Retrospective Longitudinal Growth Modeling”

By James Steele, James Fisher, etc. others.,

It seems Dr. McGuff finally got something right in his book BBS. Also, It seems various training methods don’t really matter so far as consistent effort is used. I suspect even further minimalist resistance training efforts would bring positive results

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The topic was “How little Can You Train- And Still Progress”

You interject maximum mortality reduction. While this is interesting, it is off topic. Most do not train-at all. Getting those to train at all is troublesome. This is a topic worth discussion.