T Nation

How is This Possible?

Confused on the following:

From “Question of Strength”

"Q: …now is that I want to get rid of all this fat. I am currently 96kg at 15% body fat and would like to be between 6-7%. If my calculations are right, it means I have to lose about 8-9 kg. I was thinking about dropping my calories to about 2400kcal a day. Is it possible to lose this in about 8-10 weeks without losing muscle? I don’t really want to do cardio after what you said about it in your book.

A: Yes, your goal of not losing any muscle should be easily attainable without direct aerobic work if you limit your fat loss to about 1 kg per week. I have plenty of clients who have done just that over the course of two months.

Make sure you restrict your carb intake throughout the day and limit most of your carb ingestion to your post workout meal. Since your body fat is relatively high, I would eat only about 60 grams of carbs along with 40 grams of protein in your post workout shake."

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459561

"Q: I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. I’m 6-foot-2, 218 pounds, 17% body fat, and 25 years old. I’ve been bodybuilding for 1 year and I’m caught up in a dilemma: Should I cut up now to a single digit body fat percentage or not worry about a little flab and just go on and get massive? I plan to compete at about 235-240 at 5% body fat.

A: Lose the fat first, then worry about gaining quality muscle. The practice of bulking up first may in fact increase the number of fat cells, and once you develop fat cells, you can never really get rid of them, only shrink them.

I would strongly suggest you get below 10% first. If you train properly, you can do it in 7 weeks or so. Losing a few pounds of body fat in that time period is quite realistic…"

http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=18cp

My question is this:
How is it possible to consistently drop fat by 1% per week for 7-10 weeks without plateau? How can one do this? My understanding was that a plateau would occur after 2-3 weeks.

Additionally, Charles has said that people seeking to lose fat should not eat carbs post-workout and strictly limit them for two weeks (to be replaced with fat, right?). How is one supposed to train intensely by doing this? Wouldn’t the lack of glycogen mean one does not have fuel to lift?

[quote]
My question is this:

Additionally, Charles has said that people seeking to lose fat should not eat carbs post-workout and strictly limit them for two weeks (to be replaced with fat, right?). [/quote]

"limit most of your carb ingestion to your post workout meal. "

Did you read anything you posted??

In his first answer CP writes…

“Make sure you restrict your carb intake throughout the day and limit most of your carb ingestion to your post workout meal.”

I dont see “Dont eat carbs post workout” in there, in fact thats the only time he says to eat them, while “limiting” them throughout the day, not ELIMINIATING.

Have you ever gone on a “diet”? I have been on 2 fat loss phases and honestly I never really did plateu, especially after 2 to 3 weeks. The diet is still starting at that point, if its going to plateu its going to happen after 2 or 3 months when your metabolism has been chronically shut down (which is why refeeds are a good idea).

I have to sound combative or anything, but it sounds like you are standing up for principles you have never experienced, and then completely misreading the information.

You didn’t see because I didn’t post it.

“Fat people should not consume carbs post-workout.”

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=3F41574CF3536A71AB46AF9A19637CEF.hydra?id=658379&pageNo=189

It says 50 grams or less per day of veggies, but my last questions still stand.

You are partially right though. I have never done a hardcore cut (I have certainly trimmed fat though), but intend to soon. I am gathering info, and such fat loss sounds great. Just want to understand how it’s done.

While I have not really experienced these “principles,” they come from what I have read. It is not hard to come across pieces that discuss diet plateaus. However, I am not standing up for those principles, I am questioning them.

I don’t doubt CP can do that. It just goes against so much of what I’ve heard…hence the questions.

Obviously Poloquin has more experience training others, as all I have is myself and other information I have read.

Take the V-diet for example. Most people that did the diet were actually kinda fat…which is not the point of the diet, however it suits us here quite nicely.

The diet restricted carbs throughout the day, with the only source being the few grams in the protein and flax meal.

After the workout you got to use Surge, and everyone still lost plenty of fat (for weeks on end). That takes care of both of those points in one fell swoop.

To give you the best advice I can - Just go for it. If you are going to cut, shoot for 2 pounds a week, limiting carbs except in the peri-workout period (Before, During, After). If you end up hitting a plateu (shouldnt be for a while) maybe hit up a refeed weekend or something.

Or even try carbs all day (which is what many bodybuilders do), but keep them low GI except for the PWO shake. This gives much more food variety.

Dark Knight, do you even know what your daily calorie expenditure is? Are you putting the number of calories below that? How hard are you working out in the gym (hours per week)?

Also, why are taking his words like gold? Just restrict your calories, limit your carbohydrate intake (to where the majority of the carbs you eat every day is eating during post workout), make sure you take in at least 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight, and eat clean. I recommend you trying out Carb Cycling Codex by CT.

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
Dark Knight, do you even know what your daily calorie expenditure is? Are you putting the number of calories below that? How hard are you working out in the gym (hours per week)?

Also, why are taking his words like gold? Just restrict your calories, limit your carbohydrate intake (to where the majority of the carbs you eat every day is eating during post workout), make sure you take in at least 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight, and eat clean. I recommend you trying out Carb Cycling Codex by CT.[/quote]

He is not taking his words as gold, hence why he is asking questions trying to figure the theory out. You just took a very reductionist attitude to this. Clearly he knows this very basic information, heck, my nephew knows this much. What is the issue here is that he was confused because he thought the author was going back on his words.

You seem to think the article was an utter waste and that everyone should do these 5 or so simple rules and it will solve everyone’s problems? If this is the case what is the point of the 2-3 nutrition articles offering more indepth and specific opinions and information that are posted on www.T-Nation.com every week?

Now, the last sentence of your post seems to me the only thing that makes you look smarter than my 6 year old nephew. Can you please tell us the parameters of CT’s Carb Cycling Codex?

Peace.

[quote]Contach wrote:
You seem to think the article was an utter waste and that everyone should do these 5 or so simple rules and it will solve everyone’s problems? If this is the case what is the point of the 2-3 nutrition articles offering more indepth and specific opinions and information that are posted on www.T-Nation.com every week?
[/quote]

The point is NOT for people to change up whatever they are doing simply because there is a new article this week that contradicted the one from last week. The point is no different than the point of having several books in a library related to a certain topic. There would be something very wrong with the person who went to that library, picked a new book each week, and then drastically changed what they were doing based on what this author said over the author from last week.

Most of the people on this site would benefit from learning the BASICS and applying them for a few years before worrying about every single weekly article here. That is exactly why so many are confused. If that wasn’t the case, why aren’t more of these people simply blowing past everyone else in terms of development?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Contach wrote:
You seem to think the article was an utter waste and that everyone should do these 5 or so simple rules and it will solve everyone’s problems? If this is the case what is the point of the 2-3 nutrition articles offering more indepth and specific opinions and information that are posted on www.T-Nation.com every week?

The point is NOT for people to change up whatever they are doing simply because there is a new article this week that contradicted the one from last week.

The point is no different than the point of having several books in a library related to a certain topic. There would be something very wrong with the person who went to that library, picked a new book each week, and then drastically changed what they were doing based on what this author said over the author from last week.

Most of the people on this site would benefit from learning the BASICS and applying them for a few years before worrying about every single weekly article here. That is exactly why so many are confused. If that wasn’t the case, why aren’t more of these people simply blowing past everyone else in terms of development?[/quote]

Yeah, but I still think there are things you can learn from each of the articles. If not something that you can implement yourself, you would at least be able to think about something a little different.

The person whom my response was directed to went “back to the basics” as you say. But if we are reading these articles, we should at least TRY and understand what the authors are getting at, and challenge ourselves with some thinking instead of disregarding it for the 5 pieces of advice that the poster offered, while not contributing to the questions at hand.

[quote]Contach wrote:
Yeah, but I still think there are things you can learn from each of the articles. If not something that you can implement yourself, you would at least be able to think about something a little different.

The person whom my response was directed to went “back to the basics” as you say. But if we are reading these articles, we should at least TRY and understand what the authors are getting at, and challenge ourselves with some thinking instead of disregarding it for the 5 pieces of advice that the poster offered, while not contributing to the questions at hand. [/quote]

My perspective is that people should spend more time getting a solid foundational education in biology and A&P along with solid quality time in a weight room BEFORE they start relying on the biased ideas of individual authors.

That would be the difference between being someone others go to for info…and being someone who forever follows the words of others with no individual perspective of their own.

I have seen many here “disregard” the personal experience of others who have shown they can achieve more while placing every word of an author on a pedestal. People like that become easy targets…and I have been on this forum long enough to notice that those who think that way are NOT the ones making the most progress over the years.

That can not be coincidence.

[quote]Contach wrote:
Yeah, but I still think there are things you can learn from each of the articles. If not something that you can implement yourself, you would at least be able to think about something a little different.

The person whom my response was directed to went “back to the basics” as you say. But if we are reading these articles, we should at least TRY and understand what the authors are getting at, and challenge ourselves with some thinking instead of disregarding it for the 5 pieces of advice that the poster offered, while not contributing to the questions at hand. [/quote]

Unfortunately, in case of probably most people reading the articles on this site, it is too tall an order to have them just ‘challenge their thoughts’ and then go on with their daily lives.

A person who’s got some decent training mileage will certainly enjoy the tidbits and spices of reading a piece every now and then. But the skeleton army of kids joining are doing more reading then actually going out and seeing how it feels on their own skin.

Theorizing is nice, but as I keep repeating: bodybuilding is not a science. And that is precisely why experience is the best primer for success and why the basics are so important - they won’t leave a great deal to theorize about, but much to act on.

[quote]Majin wrote:
Contach wrote:
Yeah, but I still think there are things you can learn from each of the articles. If not something that you can implement yourself, you would at least be able to think about something a little different.

The person whom my response was directed to went “back to the basics” as you say. But if we are reading these articles, we should at least TRY and understand what the authors are getting at, and challenge ourselves with some thinking instead of disregarding it for the 5 pieces of advice that the poster offered, while not contributing to the questions at hand.

Unfortunately, in case of probably most people reading the articles on this site, it is too tall an order to have them just ‘challenge their thoughts’ and then go on with their daily lives.

A person who’s got some decent training mileage will certainly enjoy the tidbits and spices of reading a piece every now and then. But the skeleton army of kids joining are doing more reading then actually going out and seeing how it feels on their own skin.

Theorizing is nice, but as I keep repeating: bodybuilding is not a science. And that is precisely why experience is the best primer for success and why the basics are so important - they won’t leave a great deal to theorize about, but much to act on.[/quote]

Good post. In the gym, no one gives a shit how many authors you can quote or how many acronyms you can rattle off. What matters is PROGRESS and those that spend too much time “theorizing” instead of acting will never be the ones making the most of it.

It will take most of those ‘theorists’ another 5-10 years before they realize that the guys who went ahead, buckled down, and simply applied the basic shit that has built up physiques for decades have past them up long ago in terms of development.

We see it here all of the time, complete newbies walking around the gym laughing at guys way bigger than them because they are doing…gasp ISOLATION EXERCISES…all because they read from whomever that it should be avoided. Common sense used to be common. I guess we need a new name for it now.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

It will take most of those ‘theorists’ another 5-10 years before they realize that the guys who went ahead, buckled down, and simply applied the basic shit that has built up physiques for decades have past them up long ago in terms of development.

We see it here all of the time, complete newbies walking around the gym laughing at guys way bigger than them because they are doing…gasp ISOLATION EXERCISES…all because they read from whomever that it should be avoided. Common sense used to be common. I guess we need a new name for it now.[/quote]

From my own experiences, it’s like every other discipline.

First you walk in thinking your way better/stronger/faster etc. then everyone else. Then you get shown up badly.

So you start reading about it, and gain a mediocre amount of knowledge, at which point you overanalyze every fucking aspect of everything until you almost get paralyzed. That, of course, has nothing to do with how you act- you still act like you know everything because now you have articles written by people to quote, even though there are guys who have never read those articles that are a hundred pounds heavier than you (you blame this on genetics.)

Eventually you realize that you learned more from your own time under the bar than you ever did from any article, and even though there are three or four out there that really helped you, you still found out that you have to adapt them to your own needs, adjust volume, sets, etc. and that nothing works for everybody. This is the point where you realize that you don’t know anything, and you knew even less back then. That’s when you go back to basics and learn the shit you once understood but tossed away because of articles in FLEX.

As far as not doing isolation exercises… well, the lack of curls has left me with a solid chest, a very good back, and biceps that look terrible. Doing pullups with 50+ pounds on you for reps is cool… but man, so is having big arms.

I won’t make that mistake again.

Maybe I’m the wrong guy to ask, though, because it took me eight or nine years of stubborn idiocy to learn all this.

This site offers the cumulative equivalent of hundreds of years of the study and practice of it’s contributors covering just about every conceivable topic from just about every conceivable angle in the ares we’re interested in here.

Ironically, therein lies both the goldmine and the problem.

For someone who already has an idea of how things work for them nothing could be better. A virtual library, a buffet of ideas and opinions and experiences to wade through picking up what you can incorporate into YOUR OWN established methods and philosophy.

On the other hand, I have come to the inescapable conclusion that anything beyond about several paragraphs of very foundational information covering, exercises, frequency, volume and nutrition are not only lost on, but are actually detrimental to the budding noob.

They remind of the coyote with the boulder falling on his head and he has the little umbrella held real tight while he winces waiting to be crushed.

They are impressed by everybody who sounds like they know more than them, which is everybody. They may be initially excited by the prospect of having every possible question answered, but end up overwhelmed and paralyzed, pinballing around from one routine, nutritional plan and goal to another or a disciple of one in particular because they saw some results which they would’ve seen no matter what they did.

I have also come to believe that this is nobody’s actual “fault”. It’s inevitable when understandably impressionable people are exposed to vast caches of information in an area where the science is still inexact at best and different methods are known to work better for different people.

If there is a “solution” I am not the one to prescribe it. In the age of globally networked computing this is just how it is.

Some will sort it out and eventually realize all this, but many, maybe even most, will not. Some will post here (or somewhere else) a few times and disappear, others will stick around and drive some of us nuts. In any event don’t expect it to change anytime soon.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Majin wrote:
Contach wrote:
Yeah, but I still think there are things you can learn from each of the articles. If not something that you can implement yourself, you would at least be able to think about something a little different.

The person whom my response was directed to went “back to the basics” as you say. But if we are reading these articles, we should at least TRY and understand what the authors are getting at, and challenge ourselves with some thinking instead of disregarding it for the 5 pieces of advice that the poster offered, while not contributing to the questions at hand.

Unfortunately, in case of probably most people reading the articles on this site, it is too tall an order to have them just ‘challenge their thoughts’ and then go on with their daily lives.

A person who’s got some decent training mileage will certainly enjoy the tidbits and spices of reading a piece every now and then. But the skeleton army of kids joining are doing more reading then actually going out and seeing how it feels on their own skin.

Theorizing is nice, but as I keep repeating: bodybuilding is not a science. And that is precisely why experience is the best primer for success and why the basics are so important - they won’t leave a great deal to theorize about, but much to act on.

Good post. In the gym, no one gives a shit how many authors you can quote or how many acronyms you can rattle off. What matters is PROGRESS and those that spend too much time “theorizing” instead of acting will never be the ones making the most of it.

It will take most of those ‘theorists’ another 5-10 years before they realize that the guys who went ahead, buckled down, and simply applied the basic shit that has built up physiques for decades have past them up long ago in terms of development.

We see it here all of the time, complete newbies walking around the gym laughing at guys way bigger than them because they are doing…gasp ISOLATION EXERCISES…all because they read from whomever that it should be avoided. Common sense used to be common. I guess we need a new name for it now.[/quote]

Professor X, you make some good points. I agree that there is a strain of thought that some people develop, in which they believe that their accumulated knowledge makes up for the application of any of it.

However, I do believe that a lot of guys do work hard IN THE GYM but don’t know what they’re doing outside of the gym (specifically in the kitcher or the grocery store), which is the MAIN reason they don’t get bigger. That and also a fear of fat gain.

Those two things will hold people back. Hell, I was holding myself back because of a fear of fat gain. When I just let loose and eat the way I know I should to gain, it happens. No magic, no steroids, just pounding down calories after a taxing weight session.

[quote]dhuge67 wrote:
Those two things will hold people back. Hell, I was holding myself back because of a fear of fat gain. When I just let loose and eat the way I know I should to gain, it happens. No magic, no steroids, just pounding down calories after a taxing weight session.
[/quote]

If I can jump in on this . . . every noob wants to gain weight with no fat gain and it’s too bad that even the ones who mean well might not get anyone who can help them understand. Thats how I was when I first started, telling my PT at L.A. Fitness that I want to gain muscle and hardly any fat.

He said one thing while laughing at what I said that still sticks with me, “You gotta have muscle to show muscle.” Very basic idea but a great thing to keep in mind. Right after that I ate and realized I wouldn’t get anywhere just worrying about minimal fat gain. Luckily, I heard this right when I started instead of spending years training without a clue.

I learn more from the posts of the vets now than of the articles.

It took me a long time (2 years) to realize that getting bigger is bloddy simple.

Since i discovered the basics, i have gained 35 pounds of body weight in 6 months. I am however, still very far from my goal.