T Nation

How Does Heaven Work

I’m interested. If humans go to Heaven, how is it free from corruption? Do we leave our evilness behind? We all have evil in us. No matter how small, it exists. If a little bit of it comes with us, it would grow like a virus. If it stays behind when we go, then our true selves don’t really go and what or who are we when we do go?

It seems illogical that it can be a place of bliss when we harbor so much evil. Simple pieces of us like lust, pride, gluttony don’t seem like something we can leave behind. How do those that believe reconcile this?

Different religious sects – including different sects within Christianity as well as various non-Christian belief systems – interpret the concept of heaven differently. Are you asking about any one of these in particular?

yep - evilness is gone, but so is sex.

choose wisely, young padwan~

Depends on your religion

Some believe you go to heaven and get herems and shit.

[quote]AliveAgain36 wrote:
how is it free from corruption? [/quote]

Just throwing darts in the dark here but:

Because corruption/evil/all that stuff is a human condition, and the whole point of an “afterlife” is not being constrained by the human condition anymore.

Just a hunch, but I would assume any “heaven” would be entirely different than life on Earth, and therefore “Earth-isms” wouldn’t apply.

It doesn’t.

Even if heaven turns out to be an actual place, it (as it is believed to be by the typical American who thinks heaven is real) doesn’t accord with human reason, so it won’t ever actually “work” in your head.

You can try to imagine or understand immaterial being, but because you are using your material body to imagine or understand it, you must fail. You can try to imagine or understand eternity/timelessness, but because the instrument that you are using to understand/imagine is both finitely bounded and in-time, you must fail.

In other words, a painter’s canvas cannot ever convey canvaslessness.

The same thing happens with those of us who believe death to occasion nothing more than the cessation of consciousness. The inability to comprehend cannot be truly comprehended.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

It doesn’t.

Even if heaven turns out to be an actual place, it (as it is believed to be by the typical American who thinks heaven is real) doesn’t accord with human reason, so it won’t ever actually “work” in your head.

You can try to imagine or understand immaterial being, but because you are using your material body to imagine or understand it, you must fail. You can try to imagine or understand eternity/timelessness, but because the instrument that you are using to understand/imagine is both finitely bounded and in-time, you must fail.

In other words, a painter’s canvass cannot ever convey canvaslessness.

The same thing happens with those of us who believe death to occasion nothing more than the cessation of consciousness. The inability to comprehend cannot be truly comprehended.[/quote]

^this.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

It doesn’t.

[/quote]

Dangit!!! You beat me to it! Except I wasn’t going to give an elaborate reason why, I was just going to be crass and bitterly pessimistic :slight_smile:

Isn’t Heaven just a place where you can make shit up and then judge others for not believing it?

Like Vahalla.
But without all the drinking, the fucking and the fighting.

Or like Nirvana.
But without all the meditating.

[quote]kamui wrote:
Like Vahalla.
But without all the drinking, the fucking and the fighting.

[/quote]

AND… would it really be heaven with out this?

I am thinking NOT!

[quote]AliveAgain36 wrote:
How does heaven work?[/quote]

Heaven is the carrot. Hell is the stick. Religion is the entity trying to manipulate you by playing on your fear of the unknown/cessation of existence. By doing so it is able to extract resources from you and exert a degree of political control of the government in the country where you happen to live (tax breaks, favorable “religious laws”, etc…). The “promise” of heaven will get you to do things that you normally wouldn’t do. Things like blowing shit up, not defending your self (turning the other cheek) or cutting off the skin on the tip of you son’s penis. THAT’S how heaven works. It is about one thing: CONTROL.

You may as well be a six year old asking, “how does the North Pole work?”

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
THAT’S how heaven works. It is about one thing: CONTROL.

[/quote]

I can say this because I used to think a lot like you do on the issue, but you have a very narrow and closed view of religion.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
THAT’S how heaven works. It is about one thing: CONTROL.

[/quote]

I can say this because I used to think a lot like you do on the issue, but you have a very narrow and closed view of religion. [/quote]

That’s a fair statement. I view religion the same way I view Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny - it’s a great tool to get children to behave, but like any fairy tale, it certainly fails the sniff test in MY book. But to each his own.

Serious question: If you used to think a lot like I do, what caused you to change your mind? Did Jesus talk to you and get you out of a jam or something? Because I’ve been through some shit in my day and every time I asked for help, comfort or relief, all I got was a big fat nothing…

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
That’s a fair statement. I view religion the same way I view Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny - it’s a great tool to get children to behave, but like any fairy tale, it certainly fails the sniff test in MY book. But to each his own.

Serious question: If you used to think a lot like I do, what caused you to change your mind? Did Jesus talk to you and get you out of a jam or something? Because I’ve been through some shit in my day and every time I asked for help, comfort or relief, all I got was a big fat nothing…[/quote]

A pastor helped my parents out during very hard times, and the basic tenets of Christianity gave my parents a lot of comfort.

At the very least, recognize how to differentiate between an organization and the laypeople within said organization.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If you used to think a lot like I do, what caused you to change your mind?[/quote]

I opened it I guess.

I got to the point where I challenged myself to be that annoying asshole that found the silver lining in everything. (This has a lot to do with personal issues with my childhood, etc.) By the time I got around to religion I actually took an honest look at the good stuff people do because of it. I focused on individuals not organizations and I really softened my approach.

Don’t get me wrong, the few and far between times I’m in a church and the people there are trying to sell me on some of the crazy stories I eye roll like crazy, but I try and see the “moral of the story” and assume most people don’t take that shit literally.

lol.

Two things here:

  1. Jesus was a great dude no doubt, but he doesn’t factor into any relationship I have with a higher power.

  2. If it has to strictly follow one of the major religions, then no, I don’t believe in God. As in, I’m not a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim or any of that by any stretch, and I’m not comfortable with the a lot of the organizations involved in religion enough to be part of them. (In some ways they are wonderful, charity work, hospitals, etc)

What I have faith in a “Grand Architect”. Something that laid out the blue prints of the whole mess we call life. I just can’t swallow this is all random, meaningless, well, shit… Call it karma, nature, God, the Force, whatever, I believe in something. That something is a very personal experience, sort of like love. No one knows or loves my daughter like I know and love my daughter, same type thing when it comes to God and me.

Every time I’ve begged and pleaded shit seemed to get worse lol. Which made the original problems seem a lot less significant. So I decided to be the annoying asshole that finds the silver lining in everything I can.

[quote]magick wrote:

At the very least, recognize how to differentiate between an organization and the laypeople within said organization.[/quote]

This is HUGE!

yeah…

If I am going to put enough effort into a bullshit belief, I think I would stick with the Valhalla plan.

i agree with AC - and this is a hot button issue.

BUT… in order to gain admission into Valhalla, you have to die, in battle with your weapon in your hand. cant do it from an old folks home…

thats the shits~

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I got to the point where I challenged myself to be that annoying asshole that found the silver lining in everything. (This has a lot to do with personal issues with my childhood, etc.) By the time I got around to religion I actually took an honest look at the good stuff people do because of it. I focused on individuals not organizations and I really softened my approach.

Don’t get me wrong, the few and far between times I’m in a church and the people there are trying to sell me on some of the crazy stories I eye roll like crazy, but I try and see the “moral of the story” and assume most people don’t take that shit literally.[/quote]

Sounds like me.

I greatly disliked Christianity, and religion in general. I disliked it because I thought it manipulated people to do crazy things, among others. But mostly that. I didn’t like how people did horrible things under its banner, or caused people to do things that just don’t make sense to me.

And then I realized something… Everything in the universe can cause people to do crazy things. The cause is ultimately meaningless in that sense. People will still do things for whatever cause or reason.

Given that, how can I hate Christianity, and religion in general, for causing people to do crazy things? I dislike religion cause it causes people to do crazy things. But since nationalism (for example) causes people to do crazy things, I MUST dislike nationalism as well if I don’t want to be an idiotic hypocrite. Since money causes people to do crazy things, I MUST dislike money if I don’t want to be an idiotic hypocrite. Since women causes people to do crazy things, I MUST dislike women if I don’t want to be an idiotic hypocrite. Since men cause people to do crazy things, I MUST dislike men if I don’t want to be an idiotic hypocrite.

The list goes on. It is, for all intents and purposes, infinite. You may have other reasons for disliking religion, but I realized that my reason for disliking religion makes no real sense whatsoever.

Also I experienced first-hand just how powerful religion can be in changing the lives of people and helping people get over mountains.

Plus I witnessed something that would Christians would call a miracle, while the medical community would call it “Wtf happened? This isn’t possible.”

Yup. I am not a Christian. Not by any sense of the world. But I can no longer bring myself to dislike Christianity or even be ambivalent about it.

Oh, and being a bit more accepting of Christianity has led me to be much more of a “seeing the silver-lining” type of guy like countingbeans. I just got a driving ticket yesterday. First time ever. It was totally my mistake. But I don’t want to pay the fine, and will try my damned best to convince the judge to get rid of it or reduce it.

I see it as a chance to practice my ability to convince an authority figure to see my way and get what I want.

Neat, huh?

[quote]Edgy wrote:
yeah…

If I am going to put enough effort into a bullshit belief, I think I would stick with the Valhalla plan.

i agree with AC - and this is a hot button issue.

BUT… in order to gain admission into Valhalla, you have to die, in battle with your weapon in your hand. cant do it from an old folks home…

thats the shits~[/quote]

You could always just head over to Ukraine and fight on whichever side you want and launch a suicidal attack.

I’m sure the heroes of Valhalla would welcome such an individual.