How Do you Know it's Over?

As good as the advice here is, I think it’s also no substitute for professional help. Nothing to be ashamed of for going to marriage counseling. It would put you ahead of 95% (my guess) of troubled couples out there.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
And for God’s sake, don’t divorce. The children of single parents have the worst time of it. If you love your kids, stay in that house. Drugs, pregnancy, poverty…don’t do that to them.
[/quote]

Is it better to have kids seeing two people never be affectionate? I don’t want my daughter to think that a man is supposed to be cold and aloof to a woman. One can only pretend for so long, before it blows up.

[quote]borrek wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
And for God’s sake, don’t divorce. The children of single parents have the worst time of it. If you love your kids, stay in that house. Drugs, pregnancy, poverty…don’t do that to them.

Is it better to have kids seeing two people never be affectionate? I don’t want my daughter to think that a man is supposed to be cold and aloof to a woman. One can only pretend for so long, before it blows up.
[/quote]

Well I think the point of many of the responses on this thread is don’t allow things to deteriorate to that extent and attempt to turn it around if the situation has gone that far. But it is difficult past a certain point to combat one’s self on that front if one doesn’t really really want to.

It really comes down to selfishness vs selflessness on one or both party’s part.

I think at the root of this whole discussion is the basic question: “What really is love?”

In my view of things there is acquisitive love and altruistic love. In my view the former is not love at all, but a simple expression of need or a desire for an experience from another person and an expectation that they will provide it.

That’s avarice and selfishness. What the American culture depicts as love is really only passion, sensation and often a prurient activity.

Love really isn’t an emotion many times, but an action. It’s doing something that benefits another - whether it makes them happy or healthier or makes their day easier or even just annoys them less - without an expectation that oneself will benefit from it.

Many times you will, though. We can’t always do it all the time, but the intent to be that way counts for a lot. Maintaining that intention can bring about big changes in a person over time and cause positive changes in the people around such a person.

Real love does small, seemingly unimportant things for people.

A smile, polite discussion, respect for others, patience with people’s shortcomings, fairness in transactions, thinking the best of other people to the extent of one’s capabilities, being trustworthy. Hokey stuff, but the basis of real relationships and a healthy society.

In my opinion.

I think there are relationships in which one shouldn’t remain: repeated physical abuse, unrepentant addictions, clear lack of commitment in one’s partner (repeated fooling around), etc. But in the middle ground one really has to question one’s motives for wishing to kill the relationship.

Dang Skid, a real Renaissance Man! Weight lifter, philosopher… .
But you are right. Love has very little if anything to do with emotions. It is a commitment. Most of the time that commitment is to ones self.

Where the emotion comes in is when youve done those things that your partner requires and the response is emotionally full filling .

There are some reasons to divorce to be sure, but the real question here is: What kind of person do you want to be? People make choices every day not realizing those decisions shape them into who they will be, and how it will effect those around them.

Everyone here has my 100% appreciation. Borek has expressed one of my concerns. Skid, you said something, that I think is the root of my question. You said:

“Well I think the point of many of the responses on this thread is don’t allow things to deteriorate to that extent and attempt to turn it around if the situation has gone that far. But it is difficult past a certain point to combat one’s self on that front if one doesn’t really really want to.”

How do you know if you’ve reached that point? When is the marriage too far gone? What if there is too much baggage? It isn’t that I’m looking for support on to dissolve the marriage. I’ll be honest, that shit scares me.

But what about 10 years from now? I don’t want to wake up and realize I’ve wasted the majority of my adult life. I also don’t want to wake up 10 years from now realizing I lost the best thing that ever happened to me. Walking away from a 19 year relationship is probably a harder decision than sticking around and being miserable.

Everyone talks of the kids. What about if you are in a loveless marriage? How does that effect them?

FWIW - my T levels are more than adequate for a man my age.

At bare minimum, thanks for making me think.

The fact that you’re asking the question means to me that you’re not at that point. It would already be a done deal in your mind.

I wish I could help you forget all the baggage. It’s all YOUR baggage: all your grudges and scorekeeping and frustrations. People do what they do - we each keep a record of how we felt about what they did.

And we nurse and feed the memories of how we felt until they grow into something that takes on a life of its own until you’re feeling things on a regular basis that you don’t even enjoy and which don’t help you. It’s the biggest roadblock to forgiveness.

When I’m angry with my wife I try to remember all the times she has put up with my ill temper, all the times she made me fine dinners unasked or taken care of me when I was ill and how well she treats my son.

I remember all the times we’ve laughed to together or the adventures we’ve had during our time together.

Who knows about 10 years from now? You could be dead in a year. Or two days. Or tonight. One thing is for sure, if you don’t commit to making yourself better in it today and the next day and the next day and so on it will definitely be crappier down the road. And it can only be a loveless marriage if you refuse to put some love into it.

“What if” can be helpful, but taken too far in the imagination it can become the Boogey Man.

[quote]hoosegow wrote:

How do you know if you’ve reached that point? When is the marriage too far gone? What if there is too much baggage?
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If you found out that there was a clerical error, and you were not actually married, do you head to the court to get things fixed, or head to the locksmith? If you hesitate, then you’re getting close to that point.

I’m at the point where I have conditioned myself not to talk about my day at work, and I get jealous when I see people who have true partners. I have a 4 year old daughter, and at first I convinced myself I would walk through fire to give her a nuclear family, but I’m no longer convinced that a nuclear family is always the best option.

I spent 9 months in marital therapy (once a week at $110 a session) and I learned so many things that could have saved my relationship, but like all things in marriage it takes both parties to pull it off. If you think that there is a chance and that you can learn to get along, then do yourself a favor and get a good therapist.

You’d be surprised, contrary to what your wife may say, every issue is not always the man’s fault :slight_smile:

haha and I think I just got some kind of jerk-of-the-week award for dropping dimes on my relationship on T-Nation

Skid beat me to it but I was going to say:

I would say by the mere fact your asking us this question 2 things:

1 You probably havent exhausted every ave. The first ave. is to talk to Her. Ask her if she is willing to fix it. If she still wants you. If she thinks the kids are worth this struggle. Be prepared for the answer. After all shes probably feeling all the things you are. One more thing, If she doesnt come out and say - I hate your guts! Then youve still got something.

2 You probably havent reached that point. However close you may be, theres still part of you, at least, that wants to keep it.

Marriage can endure a lot. Ive seen it. But like borrek said it takes two. Yes there are lots of marriages out there where one or the other is not willing to do their part. Forget about picking up the slack.

From what you expressed that doesnt seem to be the case.

[quote]hoosegow wrote:

But what about 10 years from now? I don’t want to wake up and realize I’ve wasted the majority of my adult life. I also don’t want to wake up 10 years from now realizing I lost the best thing that ever happened to me. Walking away from a 19 year relationship is probably a harder decision than sticking around and being miserable.

Everyone talks of the kids. What about if you are in a loveless marriage? How does that effect them?

FWIW - my T levels are more than adequate for a man my age.

At bare minimum, thanks for making me think.[/quote]

The studies on kids reflect that they are quite able to deal with loveless marriages, much more so than divorce between the parents, just FYI.

But “I also don’t want to wake up 10 years from now realizing I lost the best thing that ever happened to me.” is a legitimate thing to think about.

What I’d really suggest is that you work at nourishing and creating something more. Find three kind things to do for your spouse every day. See where it leads in three weeks.

Think of it like lifting weights. Sometimes a routine gets stale, but the weights are still there, still offering a promise, you just have to address them differently.

As someone that is going to get married in under 3 months, a lot of wisdom in this thread.

The legal, logistical, and financial aspects of splitting up would be horrible. The emotional fallout will be a disaster for all concerned.
Go for counselling & get to the root cause of the problem.
Well done for getting it off your chest. Now get to grips with it. All the best

As many have mentioned: If you are uncertain; it isn’t over!

This is some of the best advice I’ve ever gotten on marriage. Thanks, guys.

Everyone’s advice has been so good, let me offer something different: go on a date with your wife at least twice a month. Me and my wife used to go 3-4x a month, but that got real expensive with babysitting, but we still go twice a month.

It helps to get out of the house and feel like a couple again. We don’t do anything fancy - maybe a bookstore, dinner, maybe coffee and a movie - but again, it’s fun.

Good luck.

I agree, ProRaven. My wife and I both like cheap thrills. So, we go to the dollar theater about once a week. If we go on Tuesday, it’s a buck fifty for the two of us, and even if we hate the movie we’re still happy!

But seriously, good advice on that. I think that’s part of the whole “make an effort” meme that everyone’s hitting on.

I’ve been married to Yo Daddy for 27 years, 28 come July.

Marriage, like lifting, demands constant work, effort and practice. If one of these 3 is missing, there’s going to be trouble.

Marriage is NOT 50/50. Marriage is a team sport that requires both people giving 100/100 all the time.

Love isn’t a feeling, it’s a decision.

Your relationship together sets an example for your children. Kids learn what they live. Don’t let them down.

There will be disputes and arguments along the way, that’s normal. But never hold a grudge, that’s destructive. It’s like you drinking the poison while expecting your spouse to die.

Have a sense of humor.

When you do decide to fight, fight naked. It puts things in perspective.

Best of luck to you.

Hoosegow can only offer from my own experience.
was married 15yrs, now divorced for 2. one of the hardest things I ever went through.
Been through the thick and thin as others have mentioned; military done deployments, moved and lost a house, had bankruptcy, wife got bariatric surgery from fork-in-mouth disease, 2 kids, son has autism was so bad had to go in a group home for a year, depression, sexless marraige, turned to alcohol for a while, you name it.

went to counseling many times, but in the end, she wasnt going to change. she had some good characteristics but many bad ones. Living there was like the Demilitarized Zone, house unkept, piles of crap everywhere. I did my job, then came home and did all the housework. I played with the kids all the time and that is what I miss the most.

someone posted the kids stay at the level they were at when you divorce, I am seeing that now and am estranged from my daughter, don’t see her/she doesnt want to see me. She is 10 and her mind has been poisoned by her mother. I still see my son 12, who is a real trooper.

My regret is getting married in the first place. I dont regret getting the divorce, and frankly the only reason i didnt do it sooner was because I kept trying to make it work. For about 8 years I tried. that was enough. The kids were 8 and 10 when I filed, then deployed twice dragging it out, and being gone didnt help relationships any.

I say cut bait and run if you have tried and it isnt working. If you love her and want to keep at it, at least you can say you tried. Dont give up until you have tried to make it work through frank honest communication, there is marital counseling, church services (if you are into that), etc. You have been together a long time and you know her true character. if she can or will change and wants to make it work, you have a chance to save the marraige.

Also the courts will fuck you financially. She will cry and the judge will wipe her tears with your checkbook. Be prepared for that. my lazy pos wife never worked a day in her life and now I am paying for trying to be the good husband and let her stay at home and take care of the kids.

I am sworn forever off that sham con game of sex for security called marraige. I am with someone now, but will never again get married. Good luck!

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
Marriage is NOT 50/50. Marriage is a team sport that requires both people giving 100/100 all the time.
[/quote]

I’ve always felt that. Early in our marriage, I would try to do what I thought was half the work. It was actually about 10-20%. Now, if I go for 100%, I find I might be doing about half.

Very wise words, Yo Momma.

Nothing much to add given the awesomeness of the advice - threads as good as this are now unfortunately a rarety on T-Nation.

My advice would be: I wouldn’t cut off without counseling. Find out what’s bothering (both of) you and then make an informed decision. Given the possible consequences it’s more than worth working on the problems in earnest.

Makkun

[quote]b12sblue2002 wrote:

I am sworn forever off that sham con game of sex for security called marraige. I am with someone now, but will never again get married. Good luck! [/quote]

I am truly sorry to hear your story. In many ways it mirrors my own experience. So when I write this to you its with the understanding that Im not talking form a bubble.

I dont know what state you live in, but I can tell you in Texas it doesnt matter if your legally married or not. If she wants to take you to court she can. And you are correct about the out come. The woman (at least in this state) has the upper hand. And sometimes a divorce from a common law marriage is much more difficult to go through, after the courts are done.

I have nothing to add I just wanted to commend everybody on this thread. I’m still hoping to find that special connection.

hoosegow the best of luck to you. And just to find out there are still guys out there who work at commitment makes me feel less like the lone wolf in LaLa land.

Peace to you all