T Nation

How Do We Collectively Make a Change?

I was thinking about this today.

I had a whole diatribe written about the economy here but I figured this would be a better debate.

Face it, the handling of our money in this country is criminal by the powers that be.

How do we collectively make a change as a society? If something needs to be done to maintain your collective freedom is it simply with a vote or is it a much more complicated series of events?

I think it requires every man and woman coming to a point where they are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

People are slaves in this country. Slaves to the acquisition of “stuff”. And in order to get this stuff, they gladly become slaves to the credit card companies, and the mortgage lenders, and whoever they are sending their car payment to every month.

The first step is to become the master of your own life - Get Out Of Debt.

The second step is to take greater pride in your family - keep a parent home with the kids. Don’t pay the childcare center to raise your children. They are your responsibility.

Third step is, once you have 1 and 2 down, to look at where you live. Can you help others achieve the first two steps? If you can, then you have an obligation to help where you can.

The rest of the process gets progressively larger.

I can only hope that this banking crisis wakes people up to the fact that being debt free is far more enjoyable than the intoxicating new car-smell.

Without getting into too much detail (and Rainjack’s input was all good, by the way), I think the ultimate answer has to be that we need to get past our essentially rigged two-party political system.

Every year it comes down to these two dolts running for president, one of them having at least half his policies that you don’t agree with but he’s beholden to have them because of his party’s “base,” and the other one . . . in exactly the same situation, only with the issue stances reversed.

It’s corrupt, it’s horrible and it prevents good, qualified people from (a.) wanting to run for office and (b.) being able to win if they ever did try to run.

I am befuddled as to how it came to be that the system is so rigged that a legitimate third party contender (and a fourth party contender, and a fifth party contender) CAN NOT have a shot.

It is ruining our country.

Just to add:

Watching the Iraqis celebrate in the street at the risk of life and limb under terrorist threat because they got to vote in a free election for the first time literally brought tears to my eyes.

How many people gave up their lives, never to get married, never have children, or maybe left both forever or pieces of their bodies somewhere to preserve our right to vote and half, HALF the citizens of this country don’t even bother to go around the corner and do it.

People have to start giving a shit before anything else matters.

Rainjack has only told us how to live in this current system. He speaks of nothing about changing this system.

I do agree with Rainjack though. Nice famlies helping each other. Utopia.

BUT

How do we change the system?

I for one think a real democractic system of every citizen voting on every topic is achievable with modern technology.

Do away with Parliament and have the government really be the people themselves.

We need a few tweaks to this idea (keep the upper house maybe, decide on how we choose the executive branch of government, etc.) but I think it would be a big step to stopping politics harming society.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I can only hope that this banking crisis wakes people up to the fact that being debt free is far more enjoyable than the intoxicating new car-smell.[/quote]

I know!

But if I didn’t take that loan, then the car makers would not have employed engineers who would not have taken a loan out to pay me to fix the computers they used to design the car!

If we stop lending money we’re all screwed.

That’s the problem. I see no solution except for some Mad Max shit happening.

[quote]Spry wrote:
Rainjack has only told us how to live in this current system. He speaks of nothing about changing this system.

I do agree with Rainjack though. Nice famlies helping each other. Utopia.

BUT

How do we change the system?

I for one think a real democractic system of every citizen voting on every topic is achievable with modern technology.

Do away with Parliament and have the government really be the people themselves.

[/quote]

I think this is a horrible idea.

We need less democracy, not more of it. All democracies seem to be sliding down a slope to mob rule and that is exactly what a democratic republic was not supposed to be.

Bastiat´s argument:

But on the other hand, imagine that this fatal principle has been introduced: Under the pretense of organization, regulation, protection, or encouragement, the law takes property from one person and gives it to another; the law takes the wealth of all and gives it to a few �?? whether farmers, manufacturers, ship owners, artists, or comedians. Under these circumstances, then certainly every class will aspire to grasp the law, and logically so.

The excluded classes will furiously demand their right to vote �?? and will overthrow society rather than not to obtain it. Even beggars and vagabonds will then prove to you that they also have an incontestable title to vote. They will say to you:

“We cannot buy wine, tobacco, or salt without paying the tax. And a part of the tax that we pay is given by law �?? in privileges and subsidies �?? to men who are richer than we are. Others use the law to raise the prices of bread, meat, iron, or cloth. Thus, since everyone else uses the law for his own profit, we also would like to use the law for our own profit. We demand from the law the right to relief, which is the poor man’s plunder. To obtain this right, we also should be voters and legislators in order that we may organize Beggary on a grand scale for our own class, as you have organized Protection on a grand scale for your class. Now don’t tell us beggars that you will act for us, and then toss us, as Mr. Mimerel proposes, 600,000 francs to keep us quiet, like throwing us a bone to gnaw. We have other claims. And anyway, we wish to bargain for ourselves as other classes have bargained for themselves!”

And what can you say to answer that argument!
Perverted Law Causes Conflict

As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose �?? that it may violate property instead of protecting it �?? then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious. To know this, it is hardly necessary to examine what transpires in the French and English legislatures; merely to understand the issue is to know the answer.

Is there any need to offer proof that this odious perversion of the law is a perpetual source of hatred and discord; that it tends to destroy society itself? If such proof is needed, look at the United States [in 1850]. There is no country in the world where the law is kept more within its proper domain: the protection of every person’s liberty and property. As a consequence of this, there appears to be no country in the world where the social order rests on a firmer foundation. But even in the United States, there are two issues �?? and only two �?? that have always endangered the public peace.

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G1802

So, a government should have the authority to decide on so very few issues that it should not even matter whether you have the right to vote, because its decisions should hardly affect you.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I can only hope that this banking crisis wakes people up to the fact that being debt free is far more enjoyable than the intoxicating new car-smell.

[/quote]

Good post Rainjack.

I have been very fortunate to work in an area where many of my clients are wealthy compared to average Joe I.T. worker. A lot of them have actually pointed me to a number of books given invaluable advice that have completely changed my outlook on finances.

And I agree that the peace of mind you get from living within your means and watching your net worth grow (or debt shrink) is much more rewarding than a brand new car (a mistake I made when I graduated.)

Edit: I forgot to add my real point to this post.

Sadly I don’t think that this credit crisis will wake anyone up. Many in our society has a blame the other guy mentality.

IMO the goal for everyone should be to make their net worth recession resistant by making sound financial decisions.

[quote]Spry wrote:
Rainjack has only told us how to live in this current system. He speaks of nothing about changing this system.

I do agree with Rainjack though. Nice famlies helping each other. Utopia.

[/quote]

But if everyone were to go by his advice wouldn’t it force the system to change? With little profit to be made in the credit/debt area the system would then be forced to change.

But this also does bring up a good point. How do we wake people up to the huge problems that face us down the road with social security and health care? That spending will surely send us down a path towards self destruction sooner rather than later.

I’m sorry, but the logistics of everyone voting on specifics just isn’t realistic.

[quote]Damici wrote:
Without getting into too much detail (and Rainjack’s input was all good, by the way), I think the ultimate answer has to be that we need to get past our essentially rigged two-party political system.

Every year it comes down to these two dolts running for president, one of them having at least half his policies that you don’t agree with but he’s beholden to have them because of his party’s “base,” and the other one . . . in exactly the same situation, only with the issue stances reversed.

It’s corrupt, it’s horrible and it prevents good, qualified people from (a.) wanting to run for office and (b.) being able to win if they ever did try to run.

I am befuddled as to how it came to be that the system is so rigged that a legitimate third party contender (and a fourth party contender, and a fifth party contender) CAN NOT have a shot.

It is ruining our country.[/quote]

Without saying it, that was kinda what I was driving at. You are not going to rebuild the system from the top down, but rather from the bottom up.

The most basic building block is the individual. Take care of yourself first. Then move to the family, then the community, then the city, county, state, etc.

Once I paid off my debt - well, even during the process of getting out of debt - I became a missionary for the cause. Every single one of my clients had to endure me telling them of the power and the freedom that you take back when you are out of debt. Several folks listened. And they are now on their own mission to take back their lives.

Tip O’Neal said that all politics are local. That’s about the only place where real change can begin.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
The second step is to take greater pride in your family - keep a parent home with the kids. Don’t pay the childcare center to raise your children. They are your responsibility.
[/quote]

This isn’t really the thread for it, but I somewhat disagree here. Yes, the kids are a parent’s responsibility. And, yes, people should take pride in family. But, pre-kindergarten child care is a good thing. There’s still plenty of room for parent involvement with childcare. Childcare gives kids a chance to interact and be social in an environment free from the pressures of learning.

I’ve seen too many maladjusted kids in the elementary grades and I can usually pick out who has been to preschool/childcare and who hasn’t. I’ve already decided that my kids will all attend preschool from age 2 on. And they will be red-shirted and start kindergarten a year after their eligible.

Back on topic, did you buy your house with cash?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think it requires every man and woman coming to a point where they are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

People are slaves in this country. Slaves to the acquisition of “stuff”. And in order to get this stuff, they gladly become slaves to the credit card companies, and the mortgage lenders, and whoever they are sending their car payment to every month.

The first step is to become the master of your own life - Get Out Of Debt.

The second step is to take greater pride in your family - keep a parent home with the kids. Don’t pay the childcare center to raise your children. They are your responsibility.

Third step is, once you have 1 and 2 down, to look at where you live. Can you help others achieve the first two steps? If you can, then you have an obligation to help where you can.

The rest of the process gets progressively larger.

I can only hope that this banking crisis wakes people up to the fact that being debt free is far more enjoyable than the intoxicating new car-smell.

[/quote]

Best Post by far.

[quote]malonetd wrote:
rainjack wrote:
The second step is to take greater pride in your family - keep a parent home with the kids. Don’t pay the childcare center to raise your children. They are your responsibility.

This isn’t really the thread for it, but I somewhat disagree here. Yes, the kids are a parent’s responsibility. And, yes, people should take pride in family. But, pre-kindergarten child care is a good thing. There’s still plenty of room for parent involvement with childcare. Childcare gives kids a chance to interact and be social in an environment free from the pressures of learning.

I’ve seen too many maladjusted kids in the elementary grades and I can usually pick out who has been to preschool/childcare and who hasn’t. I’ve already decided that my kids will all attend preschool from age 2 on. And they will be red-shirted and start kindergarten a year after their eligible.

Back on topic, did you buy your house with cash?[/quote]

I got a little too excited in making my post. Getting a loan for your home is about the only way 99.9% of the people are going to get a home. But - don’t buy more than you need, and make sure you can afford the payment.

I did pay my home off in 8 years though, and I will not buy another home until I have the cash to purchase it out right.

I can’t disagree more with you about daycare. I have 2 kids. My wife and I made a conscious decision to have her stay at home with the kids until they were old enough to start kindergarten. We stuck to our word. you’re damn right you can tell a difference between a child who is raised in exchange for money, and a child who is raised its mother.

In my opinion, the only reasons a child is subjected to paid daycare is either greed or laziness on the part of the parents.

But i do agree on holding them back an extra year. I started school in the second grade (skipped K-1), and I would never put my kids through that hell.

I honestly believe that the lack of family bonding because of the out sourcing of parenthood. Is responsible for the break down of the family unit. This creates a void in communications leading to disfunctional families.

The family is the grass roots of a country. The functionality of the family unit is a direct reflection on the stability of the country. Taking honor, pride and respect in the family translates to the country. The strength this creates within the country are the building blocks to success.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
malonetd wrote:
rainjack wrote:
The second step is to take greater pride in your family - keep a parent home with the kids. Don’t pay the childcare center to raise your children. They are your responsibility.

This isn’t really the thread for it, but I somewhat disagree here. Yes, the kids are a parent’s responsibility. And, yes, people should take pride in family. But, pre-kindergarten child care is a good thing. There’s still plenty of room for parent involvement with childcare. Childcare gives kids a chance to interact and be social in an environment free from the pressures of learning.

I’ve seen too many maladjusted kids in the elementary grades and I can usually pick out who has been to preschool/childcare and who hasn’t. I’ve already decided that my kids will all attend preschool from age 2 on. And they will be red-shirted and start kindergarten a year after their eligible.

Back on topic, did you buy your house with cash?

I got a little too excited in making my post. Getting a loan for your home is about the only way 99.9% of the people are going to get a home. But - don’t buy more than you need, and make sure you can afford the payment.

I did pay my home off in 8 years though, and I will not buy another home until I have the cash to purchase it out right.

I can’t disagree more with you about daycare. I have 2 kids. My wife and I made a conscious decision to have her stay at home with the kids until they were old enough to start kindergarten. We stuck to our word. you’re damn right you can tell a difference between a child who is raised in exchange for money, and a child who is raised its mother.

In my opinion, the only reasons a child is subjected to paid daycare is either greed or laziness on the part of the parents.

But i do agree on holding them back an extra year. I started school in the second grade (skipped K-1), and I would never put my kids through that hell.

[/quote]

What about parents sending their kids to half-day preschool for the sake of socializing with kids their own age and easing the adjustment for years to come?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Damici wrote:
Without getting into too much detail (and Rainjack’s input was all good, by the way), I think the ultimate answer has to be that we need to get past our essentially rigged two-party political system.

Every year it comes down to these two dolts running for president, one of them having at least half his policies that you don’t agree with but he’s beholden to have them because of his party’s “base,” and the other one . . . in exactly the same situation, only with the issue stances reversed.

It’s corrupt, it’s horrible and it prevents good, qualified people from (a.) wanting to run for office and (b.) being able to win if they ever did try to run.

I am befuddled as to how it came to be that the system is so rigged that a legitimate third party contender (and a fourth party contender, and a fifth party contender) CAN NOT have a shot.

It is ruining our country.

Without saying it, that was kinda what I was driving at. You are not going to rebuild the system from the top down, but rather from the bottom up.

The most basic building block is the individual. Take care of yourself first. Then move to the family, then the community, then the city, county, state, etc.

Once I paid off my debt - well, even during the process of getting out of debt - I became a missionary for the cause. Every single one of my clients had to endure me telling them of the power and the freedom that you take back when you are out of debt. Several folks listened. And they are now on their own mission to take back their lives.

Tip O’Neal said that all politics are local. That’s about the only place where real change can begin.

[/quote]

Great posts from you on this thread, I agree 100%. Conservatives should be a lot more concerned about their culture and communities than about winning elections, with the last two decades as all the evidence you need.

But without dragging this thread into the usual debate, it makes me wonder how you so happily vote Republican. The Democrats may well be the Party of Death, or close, but the Republicans are the Party of Greed. And as Andrew Bacevich has written, Ronald Reagan, conservatism’s Dear Leader, was probably the apostle of that cultural shift.

[quote]Damici wrote:
Without getting into too much detail (and Rainjack’s input was all good, by the way), I think the ultimate answer has to be that we need to get past our essentially rigged two-party political system.

Every year it comes down to these two dolts running for president, one of them having at least half his policies that you don’t agree with but he’s beholden to have them because of his party’s “base,” and the other one . . . in exactly the same situation, only with the issue stances reversed.

It’s corrupt, it’s horrible and it prevents good, qualified people from (a.) wanting to run for office and (b.) being able to win if they ever did try to run.

I am befuddled as to how it came to be that the system is so rigged that a legitimate third party contender (and a fourth party contender, and a fifth party contender) CAN NOT have a shot.

It is ruining our country.[/quote]

Agreed, I am voting third party for the first time this fall. But it is all about the money, and the influence it buys. That’s why we have two big-tent parties that are increasingly indistinguishable.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Damici wrote:
Without getting into too much detail (and Rainjack’s input was all good, by the way), I think the ultimate answer has to be that we need to get past our essentially rigged two-party political system.

Every year it comes down to these two dolts running for president, one of them having at least half his policies that you don’t agree with but he’s beholden to have them because of his party’s “base,” and the other one . . . in exactly the same situation, only with the issue stances reversed.

It’s corrupt, it’s horrible and it prevents good, qualified people from (a.) wanting to run for office and (b.) being able to win if they ever did try to run.

I am befuddled as to how it came to be that the system is so rigged that a legitimate third party contender (and a fourth party contender, and a fifth party contender) CAN NOT have a shot.

It is ruining our country.

Without saying it, that was kinda what I was driving at. You are not going to rebuild the system from the top down, but rather from the bottom up.

The most basic building block is the individual. Take care of yourself first. Then move to the family, then the community, then the city, county, state, etc.

Once I paid off my debt - well, even during the process of getting out of debt - I became a missionary for the cause. Every single one of my clients had to endure me telling them of the power and the freedom that you take back when you are out of debt. Several folks listened. And they are now on their own mission to take back their lives.

Tip O’Neal said that all politics are local. That’s about the only place where real change can begin.

Great posts from you on this thread, I agree 100%. Conservatives should be a lot more concerned about their culture and communities than about winning elections, with the last two decades as all the evidence you need.

But without dragging this thread into the usual debate, it makes me wonder how you so happily vote Republican. The Democrats may well be the Party of Death, or close, but the Republicans are the Party of Greed. And as Andrew Bacevich has written, Ronald Reagan, conservatism’s Dear Leader, was probably the apostle of that cultural shift.[/quote]

While I was too young to understand the concept of shitting my pants when Reagan was in office what I do know of him he is a far cry from today’s republicans.

Republican 1980s = Small government

Republicans 2008 = Democrats but spending in different areas.

Promoting greed for the people is a great thing. Greed for the parties are killing this country.

Network with other parents that are like minded. Ones that you trust with the lifes of your children. Playing with friends is a major part of childhood. The point is to do these things with your child. This way you aren’t strangers. You are part of your childs live.

I swear if you ask kids what they want at ages 1-6. Parent or out source and parents win every time. I difficultly is I don’t understand why people have kids if they don’t want to be with them.

[quote]AssOnGrass wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Damici wrote:
Without getting into too much detail (and Rainjack’s input was all good, by the way), I think the ultimate answer has to be that we need to get past our essentially rigged two-party political system.

Every year it comes down to these two dolts running for president, one of them having at least half his policies that you don’t agree with but he’s beholden to have them because of his party’s “base,” and the other one . . . in exactly the same situation, only with the issue stances reversed.

It’s corrupt, it’s horrible and it prevents good, qualified people from (a.) wanting to run for office and (b.) being able to win if they ever did try to run.

I am befuddled as to how it came to be that the system is so rigged that a legitimate third party contender (and a fourth party contender, and a fifth party contender) CAN NOT have a shot.

It is ruining our country.

Without saying it, that was kinda what I was driving at. You are not going to rebuild the system from the top down, but rather from the bottom up.

The most basic building block is the individual. Take care of yourself first. Then move to the family, then the community, then the city, county, state, etc.

Once I paid off my debt - well, even during the process of getting out of debt - I became a missionary for the cause. Every single one of my clients had to endure me telling them of the power and the freedom that you take back when you are out of debt. Several folks listened. And they are now on their own mission to take back their lives.

Tip O’Neal said that all politics are local. That’s about the only place where real change can begin.

Great posts from you on this thread, I agree 100%. Conservatives should be a lot more concerned about their culture and communities than about winning elections, with the last two decades as all the evidence you need.

But without dragging this thread into the usual debate, it makes me wonder how you so happily vote Republican. The Democrats may well be the Party of Death, or close, but the Republicans are the Party of Greed. And as Andrew Bacevich has written, Ronald Reagan, conservatism’s Dear Leader, was probably the apostle of that cultural shift.

While I was too young to understand the concept of shitting my pants when Reagan was in office what I do know of him he is a far cry from today’s republicans.

Republican 1980s = Small government

Republicans 2008 = Democrats but spending in different areas.
[/quote]

Government grew while Reagan was in office. As did the debt. Tremendously.

[quote]
Promoting greed for the people is a great thing.[/quote]

It is? Been reading the papers lately?