T Nation

How Do Pro's Get Their Natural Test Levels Back?


#1

Let's say, Jay Cutler who has been competing since the early 90's.....that's AT LEAST 15 years of cycles, how the hell would someone like him cope with getting his natural test level back up? I realize that there are some great natural product's out there but surely even those would not be powerful enough for an IFBB Pro??


#2

Aha seriously? they don’t ever…
I think that it would actually be physiologically impossible for someone of that size + time spent suppressing their own natural test(15yrs), to be able to be off gear 100% and produce their own test naturally.
It is a sacrifice they have chosen to make


#3

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#4

[quote]Chemical Adonis wrote:
Aha seriously? they don’t ever…
I think that it would actually be physiologically impossible for someone of that size + time spent suppressing their own natural test(15yrs), to be able to be off gear 100% and produce their own test naturally.
It is a sacrifice they have chosen to make[/quote]

So what do they do when they finish competing? Go on HRT?


#5

Pro bodybuilding is inherently unhealthy, you just do your best to make it as healthy as you can.

But yeah, these guys are on TRT for life…most dont really get ‘off’ either unless they have to (Tom Prince). Have you seen Dorian Yates, Nasser, or Ronnie lately? Their whole persona is wrapped up in their muscles, so they dont want to shrink down and lose it all.


#6

They never come off.

Even if their natural production were not ruined (unlikely), they could never support even a fraction of that muscle mass without regular cycles.


#7

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
Pro bodybuilding is inherently unhealthy, you just do your best to make it as healthy as you can.

But yeah, these guys are on TRT for life…most dont really get ‘off’ either unless they have to (Tom Prince). Have you seen Dorian Yates, Nasser, or Ronnie lately? Their whole persona is wrapped up in their muscles, so they dont want to shrink down and lose it all.[/quote]

Ive seen Dorian and hes still big but not what he used to be obviously, he still trains at least 4 times a week Ive been told.


#8

[quote]John Mclane wrote:

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
Pro bodybuilding is inherently unhealthy, you just do your best to make it as healthy as you can.

But yeah, these guys are on TRT for life…most dont really get ‘off’ either unless they have to (Tom Prince). Have you seen Dorian Yates, Nasser, or Ronnie lately? Their whole persona is wrapped up in their muscles, so they dont want to shrink down and lose it all.[/quote]

Ive seen Dorian and hes still big but not what he used to be obviously, he still trains at least 4 times a week Ive been told.[/quote]

No retired pro is as big as he was whilst competing. Why would he be? I guess you cant imagine how uncomfortable it is to walk around at 275lbs+ all the time.

Dorian is still about 225 pounds.

And pros and even national level amateurs dont cycle these drugs. They blast and cruise. If you want to be as big and as lean as possible all the time theres no way you can come off, after a certain level of muscularity is reached.


#9

i agree with most of the above…you will not come back 100% after that kind of duration. I used anabolics in high doses for 15 years pretty much constantly…without hrt my testosterone level is undetectable…make no mistake there is a price to be paid.

For me i never really cared and i am perfectly comfortable on HRT so no big deal, but not everyone is going to feel that way. The good news if there is such a thing in this scenario is that at my biggest i was around 300lbs, now even on just HRT doses i still maintain 250 and look FAR better than i did then. So its not all a loss.


#10

[quote]morepain wrote:
i agree with most of the above…you will not come back 100% after that kind of duration. I used anabolics in high doses for 15 years pretty much constantly…without hrt my testosterone level is undetectable…make no mistake there is a price to be paid.

For me i never really cared and i am perfectly comfortable on HRT so no big deal, but not everyone is going to feel that way. The good news if there is such a thing in this scenario is that at my biggest i was around 300lbs, now even on just HRT doses i still maintain 250 and look FAR better than i did then. So its not all a loss. [/quote]

Just curious, ever get the sperm tested ? With HRT and HCG are they still kicking adequately ?

After the age of about 35-40 natural production is somewhat inadequate for most of us.

I plan on cycling until 35, have those kids, get squared away, then go on HRT with HCG.

Life plan.


#11

honestly…i hate kids, i think we have created a world where its impossible to raise a respectable child unless you intend to isolate them and home school them. THey pretty much become parasites that suck the life out of you. So no i have never pursued nor cared about my sperm count. I don’t use hcg. I use testosterone at 200mg/weekly in two shots, this keeps me right on the high end of normal (tested 4 times per year).

I use an AI rarely. SOmetimes if my e2 comes back high i will use a very small amount of arimidex but i over respond in a major way to it. I know the “accepted protocl” is T +ai + hcg but the fact is we are NOT all the same and i have extensive lab work to prove it. I honestly believe alot of the HRT horror stories are a direct result of making it too complicated. As far as having rats if i wanted to i would use a combination of hcg/hmg/clomid i have NEVER seen this fail even in long time users.


#12

[quote]morepain wrote:
honestly…i hate kids, i think we have created a world where its impossible to raise a respectable child unless you intend to isolate them and home school them. THey pretty much become parasites that suck the life out of you. So no i have never pursued nor cared about my sperm count. I don’t use hcg. I use testosterone at 200mg/weekly in two shots, this keeps me right on the high end of normal (tested 4 times per year).

I use an AI rarely. SOmetimes if my e2 comes back high i will use a very small amount of arimidex but i over respond in a major way to it. I know the “accepted protocl” is T +ai + hcg but the fact is we are NOT all the same and i have extensive lab work to prove it. I honestly believe alot of the HRT horror stories are a direct result of making it too complicated. As far as having rats if i wanted to i would use a combination of hcg/hmg/clomid i have NEVER seen this fail even in long time users. [/quote]

What about pituitary shutdown and atrophy, even handling testicular atrophy with HCG does not handle the pituitary issue, natural LH production seems to have some effects on sperm quality from what I have read ? Have you known any users who are perma shutdown that had complete success with child bearing ? This is really my only true concern with my gear usage, and it somewhat haunts me.

Is HCG a perfect acceptable replacement for normal pituitary LH ?

I worry about my sperm quality too close to cycles for when I decide to have kids I intend to stop cycling for atleast a year for maximum quality and lowest risk of genetic defects…

I want a bunch of kids, and I intend to raise them right, just gotta make sure they come out right.


#13

From personal experience, I had three kids before I ever cycled, tried pro-hormones for a couple of years, went on four nine week cycles between ages 30-33 and after I came of my last cycle I did a standard pct and am now blessed with my fourth on it’s way. Hope that helps.

(PCT was nolva and HCG)


#14

[quote]Westclock wrote:

[quote]morepain wrote:
honestly…i hate kids, i think we have created a world where its impossible to raise a respectable child unless you intend to isolate them and home school them. THey pretty much become parasites that suck the life out of you. So no i have never pursued nor cared about my sperm count. I don’t use hcg. I use testosterone at 200mg/weekly in two shots, this keeps me right on the high end of normal (tested 4 times per year).

I use an AI rarely. SOmetimes if my e2 comes back high i will use a very small amount of arimidex but i over respond in a major way to it. I know the “accepted protocl” is T +ai + hcg but the fact is we are NOT all the same and i have extensive lab work to prove it. I honestly believe alot of the HRT horror stories are a direct result of making it too complicated. As far as having rats if i wanted to i would use a combination of hcg/hmg/clomid i have NEVER seen this fail even in long time users. [/quote]

What about pituitary shutdown and atrophy, even handling testicular atrophy with HCG does not handle the pituitary issue, natural LH production seems to have some effects on sperm quality from what I have read ? Have you known any users who are perma shutdown that had complete success with child bearing ? This is really my only true concern with my gear usage, and it somewhat haunts me.

Is HCG a perfect acceptable replacement for normal pituitary LH ?

I worry about my sperm quality too close to cycles for when I decide to have kids I intend to stop cycling for atleast a year for maximum quality and lowest risk of genetic defects…

I want a bunch of kids, and I intend to raise them right, just gotta make sure they come out right.
[/quote]

There is no way anyone can say ok “x” amount of this or that and you will be fine. All i can tell you is what i have seen personally. 3 different users all non-stop heavy steroid users with 5+ years of constant usage. All three used hcg/hmg/clomid…all three conceived wihtin 6 months. Will this DEFINETELY work for you…there is no way to say that with complete certainty.


#15

[quote]Westclock wrote:

What about pituitary shutdown and atrophy, even handling testicular atrophy with HCG does not handle the pituitary issue, natural LH production seems to have some effects on sperm quality from what I have read ? Have you known any users who are perma shutdown that had complete success with child bearing ? This is really my only true concern with my gear usage, and it somewhat haunts me.

Is HCG a perfect acceptable replacement for normal pituitary LH ?

I worry about my sperm quality too close to cycles for when I decide to have kids I intend to stop cycling for atleast a year for maximum quality and lowest risk of genetic defects…

I want a bunch of kids, and I intend to raise them right, just gotta make sure they come out right.
[/quote]

I just had this discussion on another thread and then a follow up with my hrt guy - FSH is what is responsible for sperm production, not LH. HMG affects FSH, as does clomid supposedly. My HRT guy assured me that he has had numbers of patients (obviously permanently shutdown) that have been able to conceive using just HCG and Clomid (I think HMG [Pergonal] in there would work even better), even patients who admitted to being in the middle of heavy cycles. So I think its certainly possible to conceive while being permanently shutdown, but again, nothing is a guarantee.


#16

[quote]morepain wrote:

[quote]Westclock wrote:

[quote]morepain wrote:
honestly…i hate kids, i think we have created a world where its impossible to raise a respectable child unless you intend to isolate them and home school them. THey pretty much become parasites that suck the life out of you. So no i have never pursued nor cared about my sperm count. I don’t use hcg. I use testosterone at 200mg/weekly in two shots, this keeps me right on the high end of normal (tested 4 times per year).

I use an AI rarely. SOmetimes if my e2 comes back high i will use a very small amount of arimidex but i over respond in a major way to it. I know the “accepted protocl” is T +ai + hcg but the fact is we are NOT all the same and i have extensive lab work to prove it. I honestly believe alot of the HRT horror stories are a direct result of making it too complicated. As far as having rats if i wanted to i would use a combination of hcg/hmg/clomid i have NEVER seen this fail even in long time users. [/quote]

What about pituitary shutdown and atrophy, even handling testicular atrophy with HCG does not handle the pituitary issue, natural LH production seems to have some effects on sperm quality from what I have read ? Have you known any users who are perma shutdown that had complete success with child bearing ? This is really my only true concern with my gear usage, and it somewhat haunts me.

Is HCG a perfect acceptable replacement for normal pituitary LH ?

I worry about my sperm quality too close to cycles for when I decide to have kids I intend to stop cycling for atleast a year for maximum quality and lowest risk of genetic defects…

I want a bunch of kids, and I intend to raise them right, just gotta make sure they come out right.
[/quote]

There is no way anyone can say ok “x” amount of this or that and you will be fine. All i can tell you is what i have seen personally. 3 different users all non-stop heavy steroid users with 5+ years of constant usage. All three used hcg/hmg/clomid…all three conceived wihtin 6 months. Will this DEFINETELY work for you…there is no way to say that with complete certainty. [/quote]

That somewhat eases my concerns. My usage is certainly not non-stop, but I do cycle fairly aggressively and with aggressive compounds.

5+ years of constant usage is certainly more aggressive than my usage, that is promising to hear.


#17

[quote]morepain wrote:
i think we have created a world where its impossible to raise a respectable child unless you intend to isolate them and home school them. [/quote]

Plus one to that. I pity any kid that has to grow up in this world, it sucks even compared to 20 years ago.