How Crucial is Cardio for a BB'er?

thanks for the replies. I guess I should have given a bit of background info first… well I’m around 240 lbs,I train 3 days a week (push / pull / legs). I would use a different routine but unfornately my time is pretty restricted this time of the year. My goal right now is more to maintain my weight (maybe drop a few pounds) and get stronger.

There’s a trainer at my gym, who I’m friends with and he always comments on how he never sees me on the cardio machines. When I answer he looks at me like I called his mother a sl#t!!! He always preaches HIIT after my workout and on off days.

Persoanlly i could never imagine doing HIIT properly after a workout and fear that if i do it on off days, I will just be hindering recovery. Then I have my uncle on the other side who is in much better shape then the trainer and treats cardio like it’s the bodybuilders plague. He says, just don’t sit on your ass on off days, go for a walk or clean your house.

I will admit, searching “cardio for bodybuilders” in Google did not help my confusion!;(

For enhanced nutrient saturation in the muscles that you want augmented so dearly, you need something to ignite the blood flow engine. Lifting weights, though does trigger this ignition in a way, is not the best method. -Cardio, relating to cardiac, therefore relating to the heart.

By doing cardio, and actual sweating, heavy breathing, feeling of almost a race, you a training your heart, which will in turn crank out the flow of blood ten fold, triggering the elevated nutrient saturation. Protein powders, amino acid powders, creatine powders etc all enter your muscles through the blood stream and wouldn’t it be a great idea to have this flow of desired nutrients increased and faster? Sounds like a good idea.

And aside from the muscle augmentation, you’ll be doing yourself a service by basically extending you life on this planet. Strengthening the heart, lowers chances of the laundry list of diseases Americans(if you are) acquire annually just because we are the crap stain of the world. With that said, by doing cardio not only are you helping yourself aerobically and anaerobically, you’re helping America by bringing down the heart disease statistics.(Cannot believe that came up)

Therefore, do cardio not only for you and your heart, but for America.

Cardio on your off days shouldnt hinder your recovery much more then doing nothing providing your nutrition is right… and given your doing 3 days a week im sure if you did it on one day where you 2 days before you workout than you will be fine.

If its not your goal to lose weight thought then there is no real point and I agree with your uncle… Go for a short walk on off days just to keep the heart ticking :slight_smile:

Ask Thibs

[quote]USINGNOWAYASWAY wrote:
Years ago I posed a similar question on this forum. I spelled out my routine, which was nothing short of savage and (overly?)long, in the range of ~30 sets per workout. I mentioned that I was positively winded at the end of my workouts and had elevated pulse pretty much throughout my routine. In particular during squats (conventional and breathing) my heart and lungs could really feel it.

Cutting to the chase, several members told me that a weight training session with only short breaks and squats did indeed impart benefits to the cardiorespiratory system. My pulse rate and breathing pretty much told me the same thing.

Anyone care to chime in to agree/disagree?[/quote]

Weight training as you describe may confer some cardiovascular benefit, but not that much compared to doing straight aerobic. Heart rate during weight training as an indicator of aerobic workload is confounded by the varying changes in blood pressure during this type of exercise, so just because you’re heart rate is elevated doesn’t mean that you’re doing the same thing if you were running/cycling at the same heart rate. There are very few studies which have shown that just weight training improves cardiovascular fitness, generally it doesn’t unless individuals are extremely unfit to start with.

Some more info is needed. Do you enjoy playing sports w/ friends? Do you have a girlfriend that enjoys outdoorsy stuff like hiking/biking/canoeing, etc…? How much do you care about overall health? Do you care about being good in bed? Consult with guys like prof and CC if bodybuilding is your only goal, but I don’t think it would kill you to do cardio on a regular basis and up your calories.

There is also lots of research indicating that cardiovascular exercise can protect against a wide range of illnesses such as Alzheimer’s, MS, and diabetes. at the end of the day, most people know the pro’s and con’s. You have to decide for yourself whether you are avoiding cardio because it is painful and boring or because the con’s outweight the pro’s for your goals.

just like to add something…there is a difference between cardio and aerobic work. Although it has become the common jargon to refer to aerobic work as cardio, or that cardiovascularly fit is the same thing as aerobically fit. This is just not true. Your cardiovascular system refers to your heart and blood system, where as the aerobic system refers to your body using air or oxygen.

That being said, one can be in superb cardiovascular shape, and do no aerobic work. Just like someone can be an aerobic nut, and have a poor functioning cardiovascular system, like the famous running guru Jim Fixx. It has been shown that lactic acid style reistance training, or circuit style training, is better for your cardiovascular health more than aerobic work, due to the stress of varied resistance it forces your “system” to act under.

For 3 months, I was following Charles Poliquin’s German Body Comp down to a t, did NO aerobic work, but the workouts were extremely cardiovascular. To prove to my friend that my “cardiovascular system” was fine, we took a 4 mile run around my school with lots of hills and changes in terrain, and I was perfectly fine, not winded, not stressed at all. And he was completely spent, and he’s a long distance runner who was 3 months out of season.

Now on the other side of the argument, BURNING CALORIES is extremely important when trying to achieve low levels of bodyfat. Your body must be in a caloric deficit to lose fat, that’s it, no other way around it. And if by doing aerobic work for 2 hours a week, in addition to a solid, well balance diet, will help you burn more calories, then yes, it is important.

BUT, to say that doing “aerobic” work like treadmill, cycling, eliptical, is important for “cardiovascular” health, is just not true. One can achieve the same benefits, if not more, by the way in which they train with iron.

Some data…according to Dr. Mel Siff in “Facts and Fallacies of Fitness”-
'high-intensity resistance training may play a role in preventing heart attacks by conditioning the cardiovascular system to cope more efficiently with sudden changes in blood pressure and heart rate…with healthy individuals, heavy weight training with very brief holding may NOT be as dangerously stressful on the cardiovascular system as is commonly believed. This is because during heavy lifting the increase in blood pressure and intrathoracic pressure (pressure in the chest cavity that tens to compress the heart) is so brief and does not remain high for prolonged periods as it does during strenuous endurance training."

Also according to Siff, he says that it is a misconception to relate “target heart rates” to cardiovascular efficiency or health…for example, if exceeding the target heart rate is something to be avoided at all costs, why aren’t race care drivers suffering from an epidemic of heart disease? Well, according to Siff, "although the heart rate of race car drivers can reach 200 beats per minute and remain as high as 180 during a race, the incidence of traumatic cardiac episodes during these events is extremely low.

More data, according to Henry A Solomon, in The Exercise Myth, “Cardiovascular health refers to the absence of disease of the heart and blood vessels, NOT to the ability of an individual to do a certain amount of physical work. Your overall cardiac health is determined by the condition of various heart structures, including the heart muscles, the valves, the special cardiac tissue that carry electrical impulses and the coronary arteries.”

Another interesting fact from Charles Poliquin…“The average VO2 max (measure of aerobic efficiency) in the NBA is is only about 47, compared to about 42 for the average couch potato, and 80 for a world-class rower.” What this is saying is, basketball players are clearly not that aerobically fit, but in excellent cardiovascular shape.

You might think my opinion is an extremist’s view, but I don’t think so. CARDIO IS WORTHLESS. yeah, that’s right. Unless it’s in an ANAEROBIC ZONE. I just attended the annual Strength and Conditioning Conference at College of the Canyons in Santa Clarita. America’s elitest trainers and c.s.c.s.'s lectured. And as for fat loss - don’t make me laugh

And a little more…this one I don’t have any scientific data to prove, but I heard it at a conference once…it’s interesting none the less. Studies have shown that Eskimos or Inuit peoples rarely die of heart disease, yet are extremely over weight. Well, the reason is…OMEGA 3’s!

They found that their diets are so high in fish oil, that although they were overweight, their cardiovascular systems were perfectly functioning and in even better condition than the average “skinny” American. Interesting, huh? So all this talk about running 3 miles a day to keep your heart healthy may just not be true after all…

yeah, because cardio is low intensity by nature. http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/ i found REALLY interesting studies on here about the effectiveness of “cardio” training

[quote]Your REAL Dad wrote:
You might think my opinion is an extremist’s view, but I don’t think so. CARDIO IS WORTHLESS. yeah, that’s right. Unless it’s in an ANAEROBIC ZONE. h[/quote]

you realize cardio and anaerobic are complete opposites?

how do you come to that conclusion?

[quote]dratner wrote:
Some data…according to Dr. Mel Siff in “Facts and Fallacies of Fitness”-

Also according to Siff, he says that it is a misconception to relate “target heart rates” to cardiovascular efficiency or health…for example, if exceeding the target heart rate is something to be avoided at all costs, why aren’t race care drivers suffering from an epidemic of heart disease? Well, according to Siff, "although the heart rate of race car drivers can reach 200 beats per minute and remain as high as 180 during a race, the incidence of traumatic cardiac episodes during these events is extremely low.

More data, according to Henry A Solomon, in The Exercise Myth, “Cardiovascular health refers to the absence of disease of the heart and blood vessels, NOT to the ability of an individual to do a certain amount of physical work. Your overall cardiac health is determined by the condition of various heart structures, including the heart muscles, the valves, the special cardiac tissue that carry electrical impulses and the coronary arteries.”

Another interesting fact from Charles Poliquin…“The average VO2 max (measure of aerobic efficiency) in the NBA is is only about 47, compared to about 42 for the average couch potato, and 80 for a world-class rower.” What this is saying is, basketball players are clearly not that aerobically fit, but in excellent cardiovascular shape.[/quote]

None of this is actual data, and as much as these guys have good opinions they should publish their data. The fact is, they don’t have “good” evidence, just good anecdotes. The example of NBA players is terrible, some of them are not in very good shape at all. Comparing their fitness level to an elite class rower is terrible. Are you also trying to say that an NBA player could get in a boat and take them on in a rowing race? Nonsense. Just the same, a rower couldn’t jump on a basketball court and do repeated high intensity sprints to the same level and quality of an NBA player (discounting other parts of their respective sports).

The NBA players who do alot of running during a game would have very high VO2 max scores.

The point about target heart rates is such a distortion of physiology. Heart rate will fluctuate extremely during resistance exercise owing to the large changes in peripheral resistance that will accompany muscle contraction levels and alterations in pressure. A standard powerlifting movement can elicit blood pressure in excess of 300mmHg, and they don’t die right there on the spot (if they’re healthy). If they sustained that BP for a period of time, sure it would be dangerous, but just to choose one particular example as above for a race car driver as to why heart rate is irrelevant is a distortion of physiology and shows a lack of understanding.

The best example for why aerobic exercise is the best for your “heart health” (just to really simplify it), is that cardiac rehab is based on aerobic exercise, not resistance. This improves peripheral oxygen uptake, improves circulation in the periphery, improves venous return, improves heart contractility, improves sympathetic/parasympathetic balance, improves coronary artery vessel blood flow, vessel mechanics etc etc. Resistance exercise is added to improve muscular strength levels for general quality of life, not to improve their heart related issue.

Your example of getting fit doing weights and then being able to outrun your “fit” friend is just a one-off extreme example.

There is a clear LACK of any substantial evidence that weight training regimes improve VO2max. In a seminal study of rep ranges a few year ago, Campos et al found that training in the 25-27RM range increased time to exhaustion in an aerobic exercise task, but did not increase VO2max. Training at rep ranges lower than this increased strength, but have no effect on time to exhaustion or fitness measures. This has been substantiated over and over and over again.

im not going to argue with upon any of this, they are my thoughts…the only thing I will take to my grave, as well as something that you didn’t seem to disagree upon, is that just because someone is “aerobically” fit does not mean they are necessarily cardiovascularly healthy.

[quote]dratner wrote:
im not going to argue with upon any of this, they are my thoughts…the only thing I will take to my grave, as well as something that you didn’t seem to disagree upon, is that just because someone is “aerobically” fit does not mean they are necessarily cardiovascularly healthy.[/quote]

I will agree with you on that point.

Someone aerobically fit can quite easily have an underlying arhythmia that is potentially dangerous. However, just doing weights won’t make you cardiovascularly healthy either.

It’s not crucial at all.

I read that Dante Trudall of Doggcrapp fame advocates cardio as part of the system to offset the high calorie intake you need to progress.

Although its purely individual, and also needs to stamped out of peoples minds as essential. A 17 year old who weighs 160 with a skyrocket metabolism can not afford to add in cardio if they want to add some size

I just wanted to say this is what a thread should look like. THis is T CEll worthy in my opinion.

The way I look at it, you have to make you muscles strong as well as your insides. Dont think im some running cardio freak, because for a month or 3 months at least after wrestling season, I dont do any cardio at all. but I do think that some is needed. Maybe run 1/2 a mile every 4 days, play a game or 3 or bball, or go for a walk with a hot chick in the park.

[quote]SilentBob490 wrote:
I read that Dante Trudall of Doggcrapp fame advocates cardio as part of the system to offset the high calorie intake you need to progress.

Although its purely individual, and also needs to stamped out of peoples minds as essential. A 17 year old who weighs 160 with a skyrocket metabolism can not afford to add in cardio if they want to add some size [/quote]

Cardio should improve your appetite. Thusly, a 17 year old w/ a high metabolism could indeed afford to do add cardio, so long as the cals were high enough. If cals aren’t high enough there are plenty of popular ways to pack dense shit into your system (e.g olive oile, natty PB, etc.). As long as you are getting enough cals, cardio shouldn’t prevent you from growing.

I am gonna side with DC instead of Poliquin on this one.