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How Come We Never See Huge Zercher Lifts?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]chimera182 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I’m not sure I follow the logic of how these are any risk to your bicep tendon. That’s analogous to saying you risk a trap tear from back squats. [/quote]

Not trying to be a dick, but don’t you think holding a large amount of weight in a flexed position might be more dangerous than say, holding a weight on muscles that are stable?[/quote]

Well, I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. Your traps are also contracted in order to shelve the barbell on a squat. In both cases, the muscle is fully contracted. Tears happen when fully extended. [/quote]

The risk is in resting that much weight on the tendon itself. Biceps tears are not uncommon in bodybuilding or powerlifting…so avoiding things that put you at risk of damaging the area might be of interest to certain people. Acting like this provides no risk at all makes no sense. Comparing a very weak structure like the biceps tendon to a very strong structure like your traps is missing the point.[/quote]

The point you’re missing is that when the lift is performed correctly, the bar doesn’t rest on the biceps tendons, but on the actual brachialis and brachioradialis muscles.

Wow, Zercher lifts look like a recipe for a torn bicep. No thanks.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
You also completely ignored the fact that two of this sites most impressive lifters, hungry4more and maraudermeat, both include them in their training.
[/quote]

You have completely ignored the fact that neither of those two are anywhere near as butthurt that X doesn’t agree with your opinion.

LOL @ the interwebs.

This discussion could have been good, but no, you guys have to pull out every tired bullshit personal attack you can think off. Should I do a check box for you?

rrjc, your dumb anti-X posts aren’t’ helping the OP anymore than what you are complaining about X doing is.

Fact is, OP is a strong kid with a bright future looking to learn. And rather than have a conversation about this, you guys would rather critique X’s post rather than what he said.

COme the fuck on.[/quote]

Really? Your one post in this thread is to defend another fully grown man? Good thing you’re here, cause prof hasn’t backed his shit up at all.

I won’t even go into how big of a joke it is when someone has an opinion different than his, and all of a sudden the name calling, belitteling, and RIDICULOUS arguments start.

If it’s not the prof X way, it’s the wrong way. Despite the OP addressing prof X on the first page, explaining why he does them and why he will continue to do them, prof X will still fight tooth and nail on why the OP is still wrong. Fucking ridiculous.

I don’t know what thread you’ve been reading, but both prof X and I have a handful of posts in here. If you were to actually read them, I’ve offered insight on the lift, how I’ve included it in my training, and ways for anyone reading this to improve the lift (in my opinion, of course.) Prof X, on the other hand, has been going on and on about a POTENTIAL injury that will not IN ANY WAY affect prof X and belitteling people like he always does. He has literally offered NO insight on the lift, despite the fact that the OP said he will continue to do them no matter what because of his situation. He’s just not okay with OP training differently than him, because like I said, if it’s not the prof X way, it’s the wrong way.

On top of that, here’s something to keep in mind:

The OP blatantly stated he’s interested in powerlifting.

I’ve trained at Supertraining Gym for over two years. I’ve been lucky enough to lift (or at least talk and pick their brains) with lifters that include: Mark Bell, Scott Cartwright, Stan Efferding, Donnie Thompson, Ed Coan, Mike Tuscherer, among hundreds of other powerlifters ranging from weekend warriors up to people who total elite in their first meet. I’ve squatted 705 (in gear) in competition and have pulled 605 (in gear).

Professor X bodybuilds. He doesn’t have ANY experience with this lift. He doesn’t squat, bench, or deadlift. He’s just right - ALWAYS.

Funny how you single me out when there are numerous people in this thread (you know, powerlifters) who are disagreeing with him, yet you still single me out.

I started doing zerchers after I injured my wrist, preventing me from back squatting. After returning to back squats, I found that performing zerchers from pins had helped me to develop strength out of the hole, in addition to having improved my “core” stability.

People who have never performed this lift should withhold their irrelevant opinions and gtfo.

Another reason I like the zercher lift is because of the ab work that’s required for the lift. It’s a great way to work your abs (for strength purposes.)

OP…

That’s a video of a guy I know who’s pulled 660 in single ply at a bodyweight of 165. It’s a retarded lift, but it’s still pretty fuckin big considering he hovers around 165-170 and wasn’t even wearing a belt.

Last year, he had a nagging trap injury when he finally got fed up and gave up all deadlifting and shrugs for 3 months to let it heal. He replaced all of his DL workouts with zercher lifts (using the zercher harness, and releiving his traps of the tension) and when he started incorporating DLs back into his training, I watched him pull 495 for 14 reps because he “wanted to keep the weights light.”

Scroll down to “miseres” post. It’s an article where Dave Tate (a powerlifter) says “The Zercher squat has been one of the biggest secrets of powerlifters over the years. A great movement for building your squat and deadlift because of the development can create for the torso and glutes.”

Then scroll down to the next post. Phill (a powerlifter) says they’re a “great move and under used.” I watched Phill pull 750+ (I forget the exact weight) pounds raw and then watched him JUST miss an 804 deadlift a few months back.

In this article:

Mike Robertson (a powerlifter) goes on to say: “The Zercher squat is another great exercise to include during this time because it really loads our anterior stabilizers (our rectus abdominus) versus the spinal erectors (think movements like good mornings and squats). While Zercher squats can be brutally painful, they can be brutally effective as well.”

In this thread:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/zercher_squats_8?id=3593794&pageNo=0

MarauderMeat says:

“i like a lot of variety with squat variations and i feel that zerchers are the best lower variation you can do. it not only will improve your squat but also your dead.”

He also says: “again… i can’t say enough about zerchers and front squats. i only perform back squats now when i’m getting ready to compete. for overall quad development and core strength, they can’t be beat.”

And as for the bicep thing, MM says in the same thread: “i do zerchers pretty much on a weekly basis” and has worked up over 600lbs.

Hungry4more said in another thread he’s worked up to 525 and he hasn’t had a bicep injury from it, either.

But hey, let’s all listen to prof X.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]chimera182 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I’m not sure I follow the logic of how these are any risk to your bicep tendon. That’s analogous to saying you risk a trap tear from back squats. [/quote]

Not trying to be a dick, but don’t you think holding a large amount of weight in a flexed position might be more dangerous than say, holding a weight on muscles that are stable?[/quote]

Well, I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. Your traps are also contracted in order to shelve the barbell on a squat. In both cases, the muscle is fully contracted. Tears happen when fully extended. [/quote]

The risk is in resting that much weight on the tendon itself. Biceps tears are not uncommon in bodybuilding or powerlifting…so avoiding things that put you at risk of damaging the area might be of interest to certain people. Acting like this provides no risk at all makes no sense. Comparing a very weak structure like the biceps tendon to a very strong structure like your traps is missing the point.[/quote]

So you’re saying the risk would be if I were to, for instance, turn around and go for some heavy deads with an over-under grip right after beating the hell out of them on zerchers?[/quote]

I’ll say I’ve never heard of anyone tearing a bicep or damaging a tendon doing zerchers and I’ve been around a good number of high level powerlifters and some strongmen and a spattering of fighters for a long time. I’d say you’re at greater risk doing an under over grip on any exercise in terms of risk of damage to the bicep. If you were tremendously thin there might be pressure on the tendon itself but if you have any kind of mass on you there is enough subcutaneous tissue to make them uncomfortable at first but nothing like dangerous.

But that’s just my opinion I’ve never done anything over 405X3 with Zerchers and I wouldn’t recommend this lift in a lower rep range than that unless you were VERY comfortable and experienced with the motion but I have never felt any kind of tendon or muscle pain in the bicep region just discomfort from the bar digging in to that mass of muscle in the crook of your bent elbows.

I would also say on heavy Zerchers when form breaks down a little the bar drifts in to rest closer to the body and puts more pressure right on the brachialis but nothing I would consider dangerous and if legitimate pain or too much disconcerting pressure was noticed in the brachialis further hip extension can be used to take pressure off the elbow and let the bar rest somewhat “into” the body. I won’t say they are dangerous to the bicep or surrounding structures until I see evidence to the contrary.

I’ve also never heard of a strongman injuring an unhurt bicep doing conans wheel which places a good deal more strain on the elbow flexors than zerchers albeit in a similar position for a prolonged period.

I am a college graduate with a degree in exercise science and a decent lift or two to my name and I will say for me zerchers are awesome and if I had a serious trainee or athlete who needed a posterior chain exercise and hated damn near all of them or needed to learn to keep their knees out/back tight/sit back/ not cry about pain when squatting or was training for general strongman events I would teach the lift as a progression starting as squats from the rack moving to lower boxes and finally to the floor.

It’s just another tool, I can vouch for it’s effectiveness in more cases than just myself with damn strong people and have never seen any evidence to suggest that it is more dangerous than any other heavy compound lift. End 2 cents.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
You also completely ignored the fact that two of this sites most impressive lifters, hungry4more and maraudermeat, both include them in their training.
[/quote]

You have completely ignored the fact that neither of those two are anywhere near as butthurt that X doesn’t agree with your opinion.

LOL @ the interwebs.

This discussion could have been good, but no, you guys have to pull out every tired bullshit personal attack you can think off. Should I do a check box for you?

rrjc, your dumb anti-X posts aren’t’ helping the OP anymore than what you are complaining about X doing is.

Fact is, OP is a strong kid with a bright future looking to learn. And rather than have a conversation about this, you guys would rather critique X’s post rather than what he said.

COme the fuck on.[/quote]

Really? Your one post in this thread is to defend another fully grown man? Good thing you’re here, cause prof hasn’t backed his shit up at all.

I won’t even go into how big of a joke it is when someone has an opinion different than his, and all of a sudden the name calling, belitteling, and RIDICULOUS arguments start.

If it’s not the prof X way, it’s the wrong way. Despite the OP addressing prof X on the first page, explaining why he does them and why he will continue to do them, prof X will still fight tooth and nail on why the OP is still wrong. Fucking ridiculous.

I don’t know what thread you’ve been reading, but both prof X and I have a handful of posts in here. If you were to actually read them, I’ve offered insight on the lift, how I’ve included it in my training, and ways for anyone reading this to improve the lift (in my opinion, of course.) Prof X, on the other hand, has been going on and on about a POTENTIAL injury that will not IN ANY WAY affect prof X and belitteling people like he always does. He has literally offered NO insight on the lift, despite the fact that the OP said he will continue to do them no matter what because of his situation. He’s just not okay with OP training differently than him, because like I said, if it’s not the prof X way, it’s the wrong way.

On top of that, here’s something to keep in mind:

The OP blatantly stated he’s interested in powerlifting.

I’ve trained at Supertraining Gym for over two years. I’ve been lucky enough to lift (or at least talk and pick their brains) with lifters that include: Mark Bell, Scott Cartwright, Stan Efferding, Donnie Thompson, Ed Coan, Mike Tuscherer, among hundreds of other powerlifters ranging from weekend warriors up to people who total elite in their first meet. I’ve squatted 705 (in gear) in competition and have pulled 605 (in gear).

Professor X bodybuilds. He doesn’t have ANY experience with this lift. He doesn’t squat, bench, or deadlift. He’s just right - ALWAYS.

Funny how you single me out when there are numerous people in this thread (you know, powerlifters) who are disagreeing with him, yet you still single me out.[/quote]

Dude, honestly, what the fuck is wrong with you? I said this exercise creates a risk of damage to that tendon. It would create that risk by compressing that area…which could potentially effect someone who was also doing heavy curls or other biceps movements. If you want to do the fucking exercise, then do it.

There is nothing to be RIGHT about. Several other people have said the same thing in this thread about why they would avoid it yet I, AS ALWAYS, am the only one you seem this upset at.

If you have such a fucking issue with everything I type, put me on ignore and go on about your business. You have made entire posts in this thread now about bullshit like whether I have competed or not when NONE of that has shit to do with the discussion of this movement.

I have been at a pretty high level of strength for biceps movements since I don’t see too many people curling that much so I am not really sure how you think I am clueless about what could cause damage there when my brachioradialis is the muscle that got injured on me.

That was why progress was mentioned…because unless you also train biceps that heavy you don’t even have a reason to be screaming about me being wrong.

So…why don’t you reveal to the kids an alternative exercise?
How can the OP train his core/lower back without a rack or machines?

And why can’t the compressed tissue adapt? With time, get even stronger (gasp!)?
It’s no like heavy curls don’t put a tremedous strain on the biceps tendon- by your logic, one should ditch all heavy exercise.

For the record, personally, Zerchers NEVER caused uncomfortable tissue strain apart from the first few weeks.
I adapted gradually.
While very heavy curling always will get annoying, increasing and building up over time to outright pain.

p.s. I’d be very thankful for that exercise recommendation.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Really? Your one post in this thread is to defend another fully grown man? Good thing you’re here, cause prof hasn’t backed his shit up at all.[/quote]

I’m not defending him, I’m pointing out how much energy you are wasting being butthurt over X’s posts.

[quote]I won’t even go into how big of a joke it is when someone has an opinion different than his, and all of a sudden the name calling, belitteling, and RIDICULOUS arguments start.

If it’s not the prof X way, it’s the wrong way. Despite the OP addressing prof X on the first page, explaining why he does them and why he will continue to do them, prof X will still fight tooth and nail on why the OP is still wrong. Fucking ridiculous.[/quote]

Oh… So it’s the second grade around here? “But, But… X did it first, Mrs Johnson, he did it first…”

What’s fucking ridiculous was your “helpful” to “X is a douchebag” post ratio. Fact is that after I posted your ratio improved immensity.

This is why I said it could have been a good discussion. Look at Meat’s post in this thread and look at yours… Rather than address his points your were too busy making the same tired trolling jokes Bonez and Way played out weeks ago…

At least come up with original material.

[quote]On top of that, here’s something to keep in mind:

The OP blatantly stated he’s interested in powerlifting.

I’ve trained at Supertraining Gym for over two years. I’ve been lucky enough to lift (or at least talk and pick their brains) with lifters that include: Mark Bell, Scott Cartwright, Stan Efferding, Donnie Thompson, Ed Coan, Mike Tuscherer, among hundreds of other powerlifters ranging from weekend warriors up to people who total elite in their first meet. [/quote]

Sweet, badass by association. Awesome for you.

lol, I’m not touching this statement.

[quote]
Funny how you single me out when there are numerous people in this thread (you know, powerlifters) who are disagreeing with him, yet you still single me out.[/quote]

I didn’t say anything to Bodyguard or Stronghold because I swear to christ they just like to argue with X…

You, on the other hand, could have spent the time trolling X actually helping the OP… But no, shitting on X was more important.

Congrats, you win the internet.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]chimera182 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I’m not sure I follow the logic of how these are any risk to your bicep tendon. That’s analogous to saying you risk a trap tear from back squats. [/quote]

Not trying to be a dick, but don’t you think holding a large amount of weight in a flexed position might be more dangerous than say, holding a weight on muscles that are stable?[/quote]

Well, I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. Your traps are also contracted in order to shelve the barbell on a squat. In both cases, the muscle is fully contracted. Tears happen when fully extended. [/quote]

The risk is in resting that much weight on the tendon itself. Biceps tears are not uncommon in bodybuilding or powerlifting…so avoiding things that put you at risk of damaging the area might be of interest to certain people. Acting like this provides no risk at all makes no sense. Comparing a very weak structure like the biceps tendon to a very strong structure like your traps is missing the point.[/quote]

First understanding that the bar doesn’t rest on your bicep tendon is missing the point. Of course, you’d have to have done the lift to know this. But you haven’t. Is that fair?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I didn’t say anything to Bodyguard or Stronghold because I swear to christ they just like to argue with X…

[/quote]

Wrong. There’s only an argument when you disagree with him. Since when are any of us above being called on our bullshit? Or did you miss the unsolicited comment from X about “development” in a backhanded slap at the movement?

Thanks a lot for the advice and nice compliments guys; I appreciate that. Never thought of doing zerchers with bands! And that guy who zerchered 650 from pins is one BAMF. As far as bicep tendons being at risk, well your discs are “at risk” too during round back deadlifting, but tell that to Bob Peoples or Kevin Nee. Some guys can get get by fine with it, others can’t. End of story. :wink:

Didnt Ed Zercher create the Zercher Squat because he didnt have access to a squat rack? Anyways I have gone up to 315 with them to hopefully help me with the DL, and when I go lighter for reps it seems I can be more upright with the form and it hits the quads. I personally like them as an accessory and feel it works for PLers BBers and Strongmen.

Get in where you fit in ladies and gents.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
So…why don’t you reveal to the kids an alternative exercise?
How can the OP train his core/lower back without a rack or machines?

And why can’t the compressed tissue adapt? With time, get even stronger (gasp!)?
It’s no like heavy curls don’t put a tremedous strain on the biceps tendon- by your logic, one should ditch all heavy exercise.

For the record, personally, Zerchers NEVER caused uncomfortable tissue strain apart from the first few weeks.
I adapted gradually.
While very heavy curling always will get annoying, increasing and building up over time to outright pain.

p.s. I’d be very thankful for that exercise recommendation.
[/quote]

Are some of you being willfully dull on this on purpose? If YOU think you have no alternatives or simply LOVE zercher squats for some reason, take care of your own business. I know what it is like to train biceps with heavy weight 1-2 times a week and I know that stressing that area more with this on top of that would increase my own risk of injury…especially since that is the area I already injured while going that heavy.

My question is, how many of you who seem to think this is impossible are curling anywhere near 85lbs or more with one hand every time you train biceps every week?

The heavier or more advanced in this you go, the more care you will need when trying to go even further. Once again, no one hsa written anywhere that the risk is tearing the biceps muscle while doing a zercher and this is of no concern to people who aren’t even at a high level of strength on biceps, or overall, to begin with.

The average person working on physique development is training biceps and back alone once or twice a week and purposely resting that much weight on the area when it could be avoided is not something I would do.

I would find alternative ways to train…like I fucking did when I was flat broke and trained at the YMCA. If the OP feels he has none, no one here has told him to not do the fucking exercise.

This was a fucking DISCUSSION…until some people decided to make it a personal attack.

[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:

On a more serious note, thanks a lot for the advice and nice compliments guys; I appreciate that. Never thought of doing zerchers with bands! And that guy who zerchered 650 from pins is one BAMF. As far as bicep tendons being at risk, well your discs are “at risk” too during round back deadlifting, but tell that to Bob Peoples or Kevin Nee. Some guys can get get by fine with it, others can’t. End of story. ;)[/quote]

Op - if that’s you in the video no offense was inteded by the 6’ 190 joke but its funny how these forums take a nose dive. This started out as a decent forum and then did a 180 after page 2. Open discussion, honest opinion and then it turns into - Say hello to the Bad Guy.
X - you can’t win. Heaven forbid you have an opinion on anything around here.

[quote]Loudog75 wrote:

[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:

On a more serious note, thanks a lot for the advice and nice compliments guys; I appreciate that. Never thought of doing zerchers with bands! And that guy who zerchered 650 from pins is one BAMF. As far as bicep tendons being at risk, well your discs are “at risk” too during round back deadlifting, but tell that to Bob Peoples or Kevin Nee. Some guys can get get by fine with it, others can’t. End of story. ;)[/quote]

Op - if that’s you in the video no offense was inteded by the 6’ 190 joke but its funny how these forums take a nose dive. This started out as a decent forum and then did a 180 after page 2. Open discussion, honest opinion and then it turns into - Say hello to the Bad Guy.
X - you can’t win. Heaven forbid you have an opinion on anything around here.
[/quote]

I am laughing at how unorginal this shit is at this point. It is always the same people and the same arguments. You apparently have to petition that crew for permission to make a post before doing so.

[quote]Loudog75 wrote:

[quote]xjusticex2013x wrote:

On a more serious note, thanks a lot for the advice and nice compliments guys; I appreciate that. Never thought of doing zerchers with bands! And that guy who zerchered 650 from pins is one BAMF. As far as bicep tendons being at risk, well your discs are “at risk” too during round back deadlifting, but tell that to Bob Peoples or Kevin Nee. Some guys can get get by fine with it, others can’t. End of story. ;)[/quote]

Op - if that’s you in the video no offense was inteded by the 6’ 190 joke but its funny how these forums take a nose dive. This started out as a decent forum and then did a 180 after page 2. Open discussion, honest opinion and then it turns into - Say hello to the Bad Guy.
X - you can’t win. Heaven forbid you have an opinion on anything around here.
[/quote]

Nah, that’s not me; I’m 5"9 & 190 w/ change. lol.

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

The Zercher Lift to a BBer is a zig-zag… a very poorly drawn zig-zag.

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