T Nation

How Can You Be Sure?


#1

I know this is a serious forum. Please just hear me out, lest some "hardcore" morons jump on me for asking a question.

Some of the vets on here are EXCEPTIONALLY well informed on PEDs and have the physiques to back it up.

However, there are no long term studies (or any studies period really) on steroids done on humans for legal/"moral" reasons. In which case, most of the knowledge gained must be largely anecdotal.

Consequently, how can you be sure of the effect of the drugs are having both short term and long term as far as overall "health" is concerned?


#2

thread fail


#3

Arnold seems OK!!!


#4

you said it best

Some of the vets on here are EXCEPTIONALLY well informed on PEDs


#5

[quote]IKIMURA wrote:
Arnold seems OK!!![/quote]

he has actually had some very serious health problems and while they are thought to be strictly congenital, if there are no studies on the drugs he was taking for many years how can you be sure?

just as another example, so have chris cormier, orville burke and flex wheeler. obviously as these guys are famous bodybuilders, their cases are well known. yet thousands upon thousands of anonymous gym rats take them as well, with no true knowledge of their effects at all.


#6

[quote]funmetal wrote:
Please leave.[/quote]

Hmm strange, I was at least expecting a “please die”, which seems deserved, but well… I share your feelings funmetal.

OP, you’re the worst troll ever !


#7

I don’t think this is trolling - this is a fair enough question. AAS DO have adverse side effects, long term ones too.

This is why you wont find many recommendations on this site by those considered vets, to stay on, or to blast and cruise. The choice to do so is personal, and although i do - i am also only too aware of the potential risks i am putting on myself.

Blood tests, medical check-ups and an all around healthy lifestyle (no smoking, drugs or drinking - whatsoever) make this risk in lifestyle for my bodybuilding goals much less risky.

The truth is though that steroids have been studied thoroughly - i recommend you look to www.endojournals.org - it is an excellent resource used by many here that is primarily about endocrinology of course - but due to the nature of the drugs in question, they have a large article base there.

The way that most if not all Pro bodybuilders use AAS is often a hell of a far cry from what is recommended here - short, effective cycles with at least the same amount of time off… meaning over 1 year, one spends more time ‘clean’ than on gear.

Steroids CAN be dangerous to people when used long term - this is commonly known IMO, but what is less commonly known is that they can also be a very effective, minimally risky way to increase muscle and strengthin the ‘normal’ populace.
The correct use of ancillary drugs is paramount in the safest use of these drugs, and this is often the topic of conversation here.

Peptides on the other hand are less well researched, and even as soon as potential PED are researched (not yet on the market) - you can be sure that bodybuilders across the globe will be getting some to try in very large doses!

This is both reckless and very useful. Those people DO genuinely have a slightly bigger lust for muscle/strength than for their health (and i am actually similar), which could be considered either reckless OR very committed. However, they are also a large group of very well educated and experienced HUMAN TRIALS - acting as both the guinea pig and scientist.

It is fair to say, that without the use of steroids over the past 60 years, there would be no-where near the understanding we have, as most of this ‘anecdotal’ evidence is the most important evidence around - i mean, i have read 100 rodent based trials that proved a drug/peptide the best muscle growth (think IGF-1 LR3) available, yet in humans - it sorely lacks.

It goes to show that a sister vertebrate with a few different genes, can actually be very very different indeed.

Look at the fruit fly.


#8

[quote]AlexD wrote:
funmetal wrote:
Please leave.

Hmm strange, I was at least expecting a “please die”, which seems deserved, but well… I share your feelings funmetal.

OP, you’re the worst troll ever !
[/quote]

How the fuck am i being a troll? im not saying “dem roidz iz bad yo lololol!”

i am asking a fucking reasonable question. this is a steroids discussion forum. some guys here seem very knowledgeable and im sure they could explain their stance on the issue in an enlightening way. thats all i am asking. im not here to get anyone upset or angry.


#9

[quote]funmetal wrote:
stringer wrote:
AlexD wrote:
funmetal wrote:
Please leave.

Hmm strange, I was at least expecting a “please die”, which seems deserved, but well… I share your feelings funmetal.

OP, you’re the worst troll ever !

How the fuck am i being a troll? im not saying “dem roidz iz bad yo lololol!”

i am asking a fucking reasonable question. this is a steroids discussion forum. some guys here seem very knowledgeable and im sure they could explain their stance on the issue in an enlightening way. thats all i am asking. im not here to get anyone upset or angry.

Because you are an ignoramus that hides behind words such as serious. Your question is obviously not serious. Your first statements are false (no studies etc…), there are studies you just didn’t care to have a look ignoramus.

You are a troll. Or you are plain stupid. Choose.

In any case this is a serious forum. Not your kind of “serious” Mr Ignoramus, but real problems for real people with real issues, that don’t want to debate the benefits of waffles.

Go play with your plastic dolls and leave the real people alone.

GTFO!

funmetal[/quote]

there are long term studies into the effects of anabolic steroids and performance enhancing drugs on humans?


#10

also funmetal,

its you who is being a total dickhead here. you could have just said “there are studies go and find them” or some such if you didnt want to answer.

rather than post two long rants to prove just how “hardcore” you are.


#11

[quote]funmetal wrote:
Wow! You edited your first post not to sound as disrespectfula s your first did and I see you added “hardcore” morons also.

You are a manipulative little bitch.

fail

/end thread[/quote]

actually i edited my post only to add the words “lest some “hardcore” moron jumps on me”

i did not delete any of it in anyway so god knows what you are talking about.

the reason i added those words is that i am hoping for a response other than your stupid “hardcore” insulting bullshit.

if you dont want to help then why dont you fuck off out of the thread?


#12

Seems to me that maybe you are a troll - because even though you got a lengthy and serious response, you STILL ignored that and continued to argue pointlessly. If you truly wanted the intelligent discussion - you would have foreseen such antagonism and ignored it in the hope of having a serious conversation…

Never mind. Fair point badly made, all the same.


#13

[quote] Brook wrote:
I don’t think this is trolling - this is a fair enough question. AAS DO have adverse side effects, long term ones too.

This is why you wont find many recommendations on this site by those considered vets, to stay on, or to blast and cruise. The choice to do so is personal, and although i do - i am also only too aware of the potential risks i am putting on myself.

Blood tests, medical check-ups and an all around healthy lifestyle (no smoking, drugs or drinking - whatsoever) make this risk in lifestyle for my bodybuilding goals much less risky.

The truth is though that steroids have been studied thoroughly - i recommend you look to www.endojournals.org - it is an excellent resource used by many here that is primarily about endocrinology of course - but due to the nature of the drugs in question, they have a large article base there.

The way that most if not all Pro bodybuilders use AAS is often a hell of a far cry from what is recommended here - short, effective cycles with at least the same amount of time off… meaning over 1 year, one spends more time ‘clean’ than on gear.

Steroids CAN be dangerous to people when used long term - this is commonly known IMO, but what is less commonly known is that they can also be a very effective, minimally risky way to increase muscle and strengthin the ‘normal’ populace.
The correct use of ancillary drugs is paramount in the safest use of these drugs, and this is often the topic of conversation here.

Peptides on the other hand are less well researched, and even as soon as potential PED are researched (not yet on the market) - you can be sure that bodybuilders across the globe will be getting some to try in very large doses!

This is both reckless and very useful. Those people DO genuinely have a slightly bigger lust for muscle/strength than for their health (and i am actually similar), which could be considered either reckless OR very committed. However, they are also a large group of very well educated and experienced HUMAN TRIALS - acting as both the guinea pig and scientist.

It is fair to say, that without the use of steroids over the past 60 years, there would be no-where near the understanding we have, as most of this ‘anecdotal’ evidence is the most important evidence around - i mean, i have read 100 rodent based trials that proved a drug/peptide the best muscle growth (think IGF-1 LR3) available, yet in humans - it sorely lacks.

It goes to show that a sister vertebrate with a few different genes, can actually be very very different indeed.

Look at the fruit fly.[/quote]

Great post Brook.

OP, keep in mind that the majority of cases in the media are those who took bodybuilding and therefore the drugs to a different level than a recreational user will ever experience. After years and years of heavy use it is not suprisiing that the body can no longer handle it.


#14

[quote] Brook wrote:
Seems to me that maybe you are a troll - because even though you got a lengthy and serious response, you STILL ignored that and continued to argue pointlessly. If you truly wanted the intelligent discussion - you would have foreseen such antagonism and ignored it in the hope of having a serious conversation…

Never mind. Fair point badly made, all the same.[/quote]

brook, im actually really sorry your post didnt show up until after i posted about funmetal.

i am not a troll at all and i know you are rightly well respected on this forum.

i would like to thank you for taking the time to respond. the link to the site in particular is extremely helpful. I will digest what you have written and if i have any further questions i will post them up but to be honest you’ve given a very thorough response.

I had no intention of causing problems here and that is still the case.

again, thanks for the excellent reply.


#15

[quote]Game Time wrote:

Great post Brook.

OP, keep in mind that the majority of cases in the media are those who took bodybuilding and therefore the drugs to a different level than a recreational user will ever experience. After years and years of heavy use it is not suprisiing that the body can no longer handle it.[/quote]

i understand that there is a whole lot of media BS around the subject. ive seen bigger, stronger faster and have some (very basic) knowledge of AAS in general. i by no means think they are the devil or anything. and also that undoubtedly people abuse AAS just as people abuse many other things and abuse can lead to problems.

i suppose what i wanted to know was that if you have predetermined conditions, such as a congenital heart condition, if the use of AAS would exacerbate this to the extent that this issue would become a problem sooner than if you were not using steroids. guess its almost impossible to answer that though lol but thanks for your help game time.


#16

This ought to help you a bit. As im informed there are NO studies on human subjects on the long term effects of steroids - and heres the proof :


#17

[quote]stringer wrote:
funmetal wrote:
stringer wrote:
AlexD wrote:
funmetal wrote:
Please leave.

Hmm strange, I was at least expecting a “please die”, which seems deserved, but well… I share your feelings funmetal.

OP, you’re the worst troll ever !

How the fuck am i being a troll? im not saying “dem roidz iz bad yo lololol!”

i am asking a fucking reasonable question. this is a steroids discussion forum. some guys here seem very knowledgeable and im sure they could explain their stance on the issue in an enlightening way. thats all i am asking. im not here to get anyone upset or angry.

Because you are an ignoramus that hides behind words such as serious. Your question is obviously not serious. Your first statements are false (no studies etc…), there are studies you just didn’t care to have a look ignoramus.

You are a troll. Or you are plain stupid. Choose.

In any case this is a serious forum. Not your kind of “serious” Mr Ignoramus, but real problems for real people with real issues, that don’t want to debate the benefits of waffles.

Go play with your plastic dolls and leave the real people alone.

GTFO!

funmetal

there are long term studies into the effects of anabolic steroids and performance enhancing drugs on humans?

[/quote]

yes, there are.
which is why the use of testosterone and many other steroids are approved for use by the FDA.

we are not talking about illegal drugs in the sense that they are not regulated
PEDs are actually perscription drugs.

They were recently regulated to make them illegal for off label use because the government needs a witch to go hunting after.

the reason why its hard to get them prescribed is mainly fear.
Doctors will loose their lives and the user will also loose theirs because there is a stigma placed on steroids. by the government which spews half truths and flat out lies to the people to get them to be afraid of these drugs.

yes there are studies,yes they are safe if used properly yes they can have risks if they are abused.

A person can die,by the abuse of Tylenol there has been deaths, proven deaths.
not from complications, no,from direct overdose. yet this drug is on the shelves
Alcohol and nicotine are 2 drugs that cause direct deaths as well.
they cause dependence and they kill people yet the use of these drugs are not only accepted but it is encouraged.

Steroids do not cause direct deaths,do not cause direct health problems.
there are problems caused by other issues that could be aggravated by the use of steroids,but these risks are next to gone if taken properly.

so I ask you, why is this country so strongly against a performance enhancing,and health promoting drug, yet drugs that will cut your life span directly and cause illness are promoted?


#18

[quote]MaddyD wrote:

[/quote]

thanks for the reply.

what is your own opinion on the question you have posed:

so I ask you, why is this country so strongly against a performance enhancing,and health promoting drug, yet drugs that will cut your life span directly and cause illness are promoted?


#19

[quote]stringer wrote:
so I ask you, why is this country so strongly against a performance enhancing,and health promoting drug, yet drugs that will cut your life span directly and cause illness are promoted?
[/quote]

Money

Lobbyists


#20

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
stringer wrote:
so I ask you, why is this country so strongly against a performance enhancing,and health promoting drug, yet drugs that will cut your life span directly and cause illness are promoted?

Money

Lobbyists [/quote]

Add:

Public fear, portrayal in media, misunderstanding of mechanism, over abuse by many users, generally lack of education in the public and in many steroid users themselves.

Steroids are so complex that many dont use them correctly, they know just enough to shoot them up, leading to all sorts of problems that the public then sees as “normal” side effects.

“A little education is a dangerous thing.”