T Nation

House Passes Dream Act

Unbelievable, a fucking amnesty made it through the House, it is expected to die in the Senate…

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/08/131921541/house-oks-bill-aimed-at-young-illegal-immigrants

its not an amnesty, if you knew anything about it instead of talkin out of your ass, you would know that this gives children of undocumented a residence status for two years while they go to school or serve in the military and then five years later plus other requirements would they be eligible for citizenship.
besides ensuring having productive new citizens, this will also finally get these people some kind of status so we can finally get a handle on this situation. what would you propose?? massive country wide deportations??
riiiiggghht

its not an amnesty, if you knew anything about it instead of talkin out of your ass, you would know that this gives children of undocumented a residence status for two years while they go to school or serve in the military and then five years later plus other requirements would they be eligible for citizenship.
besides ensuring having productive new citizens, this will also finally get these people some kind of status so we can finally get a handle on this situation. what would you propose?? massive country wide deportations??
riiiiggghht

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[quote]gangstpmp3 wrote:
its not an amnesty, if you knew anything about it instead of talkin out of your ass, you would know that this gives children of undocumented a residence status for two years while they go to school or serve in the military and then five years later plus other requirements would they be eligible for citizenship.
besides ensuring having productive new citizens, this will also finally get these people some kind of status so we can finally get a handle on this situation. what would you propose?? massive country wide deportations??
riiiiggghht[/quote]

Is there a mechanism to verify the degree is legit? Nope.

Dud you know by simply applying (not actually doing anything) these kids get 10 yrs of protected status?

What if they drop out of school or the military, will they then be deported?

Did you know that they can sponsor their illegal alien parents or relatives following them getting conditional status?

Like previously mentioned, this does nothing but encourage more illegal immigration?

This problem is people coming here illegally, not the laws on the books (which were broken by illegals to begin with).

Yes we could do a mass deportation, it was done years ago called Operation Wetback.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]gangstpmp3 wrote:
its not an amnesty, if you knew anything about it instead of talkin out of your ass, you would know that this gives children of undocumented a residence status for two years while they go to school or serve in the military and then five years later plus other requirements would they be eligible for citizenship.
besides ensuring having productive new citizens, this will also finally get these people some kind of status so we can finally get a handle on this situation. what would you propose?? massive country wide deportations??
riiiiggghht[/quote]

You forgot to add that it would encourage further illegal immigration.

A minor point for you, I know. [/quote]
Like anything’s stopping them in the first place? This seems like a logical solution to a big problem… a problem hurting us now, a problem that will hurt us in the future, especially in terms of economics.

I think it is a smart idea. Mass deportation would be fucking ridiculous, both in reason and in logistics. That should not even be an option because both parties know that this would never get approved in Congress and would just be a waste of time.

So we have two choices: let them stay as illegal immigrants (mind you, they were brought here as KIDS and not likely under their own will), or provide them a path to citizenship.

From a CNN article:

“Even then, only a six-year conditional status would be awarded, and before moving to the next phase, the students would need to meet additional requirements – attending college or serving in the military for at least two years, and passing criminal background checks.”

“Mass amnesty is not the only problem with the DREAM Act,” said Smith, the ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee. “The bill allows illegal immigrants to receive in-state tuition at public universities, placing them ahead of U.S. citizens. The bill also is a magnet for fraud.”

[side note: how does in-state tuition place them ‘ahead’ of U.S. citizens? It doesn’t, U.S. citizens receive the same. He has a point about fraud though, but that has to do with oversight of the bill, not with the principles of actually introducing this bill.]

“It also points out that DREAM Act beneficiaries would not be eligible for federal grants, such as Pell Grants, to attend college. “Undocumented youth adjusting to lawful permanent resident status are only eligible for federal student loans which must be paid back, and federal work-study programs where they must work for any benefit they receive,” according to the White House.”

“No Pell Grant. I’d like to see you get through college without a Pell Grant. No government assistance … no health care. Nothing. Nothing but your own faith and your own determination and your own work to get you through school. And nothing but your own work, your own determination to join the military.”

“The Congressional Budget Office has said the measure would cut the federal deficit by $1.4 billion and increase government revenues by $2.3 billion over the next decade.”

"Young people who do not fulfill the act’s requirements will lose their legal status and would be subject to deportation, according to the White House fact sheet. DREAM Act applicants would be responsible for paying the processing fees associated with their applications, and would be subject to “rigorous criminal background checks and reviews.”


I’d like to hear some counter-arguments, as well as other solutions anyone has.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

I’d like to hear some counter-arguments, as well as other solutions anyone has.[/quote]

SNIPERS

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[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
You forgot to add that it would encourage further illegal immigration.

A minor point for you, I know. [/quote]

Like anything’s stopping them in the first place? This seems like a logical solution to a big problem… a problem hurting us now, a problem that will hurt us in the future, especially in terms of economics.
[/quote]

“Like anything’s stopping them in the first place?” C’mon, your thinking has to be more subtle than that. It’s not a simple they come / don’t come thing. Every single illegal immigrant and potential illegal immigrant calculates the costs and benefits of making the possibly dangerous and (for some) expensive trip. Are you really claiming that the risks vs. the benefits has no impact on their decisions?

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it is a smart idea. Mass deportation would be fucking ridiculous, both in reason and in logistics. That should not even be an option because both parties know that this would never get approved in Congress and would just be a waste of time.
So we have two choices: let them stay as illegal immigrants (mind you, they were brought here as KIDS and not likely under their own will), or provide them a path to citizenship.
[/quote]

Obviously, you’re not old enough to remember the last time we heard those same arguments, and watched all the illegals become citizens. It sure solved our immigration problem, didn’t it?

Look, we could deport all the illegals, but it’s not even necessary. All we have to do is stop being so dammed welcoming of them. Not legal? No job (yes, employers need to be cracked down on), no free education, no in-state tuition, no welfare, no drivers license, no medical care except for emergencies (to then be followed by deportation). Watch how fast people turn around and go back home.

Incidentally, if these kids (who you say have no responsibilty for their situation) DO get citizenship, would you then allow the parents (who broke the law and came illegally) piggy back their way into citizenship, too? Serious question.[/quote]
I am not claiming risks v. benefits doesn’t impact their thinking… and I guess you are right, it would attract even more immigrants, but isn’t that what border security is for?

I am young yes, so I do not recall anything like the DREAM act happening before. Did it happen, was there some bill before this one? Can you link me? – Side question, was it the ‘bill’ that didn’t work in the past, or just border security?

– For the parents, and whoever else, I would say they can use the DREAM act under the same conditions: military or college, or deport. But that’s a moot point anyways, because you brought up some good point about just ‘ignoring them’. They broke the law of getting here illegally: deal with the consequences.

The thing that makes me a bit uneasy about this idea though, is that many of the kids were brought in when they had no control, i.e., those at a very young age. These kids consider themselves as American as can be, have never been to Mexico, and know English/the culture just as well as I do. They just don’t have the paperwork that says they are American. So what do we do with them?

Actually in the case of the parents - nevermind about I said… they are much older and many won’t qualify for the military in terms of age, and most probably have ok-to-decent paying jobs so going to college would be pointless. I guess we can ignore them!

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Older article but sounds like it could be a close vote in the Senate.

Reid pulled it off the floor according to Fox News.

Andy, I had to wait, so should these kids.

As to illegal alien kids getting financial aid, shouldn’t that money go to kids here legally? Ya know, the kids who really aren’t at any fault.

Their first act in this country is agaisnt the law… Why would you want to make them citizens…??? I guess though, they are already prepared to be a politician in the democratic party so hay… least there is that…

seriously though, freaking ridiculous…

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Reid pulled it off the floor according to Fox News.

Andy, I had to wait, so should these kids.

As to illegal alien kids getting financial aid, shouldn’t that money go to kids here legally? Ya know, the kids who really aren’t at any fault.[/quote]

hell no, they have parents who pay taxes and they have likely had summer jobs where they paid taxes…

logic has no place in this argument (just like any liberal arguement) its all about feelings not law…

[quote]gangstpmp3 wrote:
its not an amnesty, if you knew anything about it instead of talkin out of your ass, you would know that this gives children of undocumented a residence status for two years while they go to school or serve in the military and then five years later plus other requirements would they be eligible for citizenship.
besides ensuring having productive new citizens, this will also finally get these people some kind of status so we can finally get a handle on this situation. what would you propose?? massive country wide deportations??
riiiiggghht[/quote]

He’s hardly talking out his ass.

This will encourage more illegal immigration. “Bring your kids for a free ride!”

Second it is the biggest slap in the face to EVERYONE else who did it legally.

Third, it’s hard enough to get into college, and now these “illegals” get to the front of the line with financial aid. Free stuff for the result of a crime.

Fourth, it’s just a play to up the Dem vote.

I’d rush to America to rape it too!

Tell me this. If two parents default on a home loan (Illegally Immigrate), do the kids get to stay in it since they were not the actual ones to default (Illegally Immigrate)?

Looks like the Senate is punting this one, which means the votes aren’t there. Hopefully punted all the way to the next Congress to shoot it down. I doubt they will be there.

The prick Illinois Scumbag behind this, Luis Gutierrez, threatened there would be a Latino revolution if they don’t get this Dream Act passed. No amnesty, no peace. I would love to see that personally, you would then unite even more people against illegal immigration, when the American people see illegal aliens marching and demanding rights.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
You forgot to add that it would encourage further illegal immigration.

A minor point for you, I know. [/quote]

Like anything’s stopping them in the first place? This seems like a logical solution to a big problem… a problem hurting us now, a problem that will hurt us in the future, especially in terms of economics.
[/quote]

“Like anything’s stopping them in the first place?” C’mon, your thinking has to be more subtle than that. It’s not a simple they come / don’t come thing. Every single illegal immigrant and potential illegal immigrant calculates the costs and benefits of making the possibly dangerous and (for some) expensive trip. Are you really claiming that the risks vs. the benefits has no impact on their decisions?

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I think it is a smart idea. Mass deportation would be fucking ridiculous, both in reason and in logistics. That should not even be an option because both parties know that this would never get approved in Congress and would just be a waste of time.
So we have two choices: let them stay as illegal immigrants (mind you, they were brought here as KIDS and not likely under their own will), or provide them a path to citizenship.
[/quote]

Obviously, you’re not old enough to remember the last time we heard those same arguments, and watched all the illegals become citizens. It sure solved our immigration problem, didn’t it?

Look, we could deport all the illegals, but it’s not even necessary. All we have to do is stop being so dammed welcoming of them. Not legal? No job (yes, employers need to be cracked down on), no free education, no in-state tuition, no welfare, no drivers license, no medical care except for emergencies (to then be followed by deportation). Watch how fast people turn around and go back home.

Incidentally, if these kids (who you say have no responsibilty for their situation) DO get citizenship, would you then allow the parents (who broke the law and came illegally) piggy back their way into citizenship, too? Serious question.[/quote]
I am not claiming risks v. benefits doesn’t impact their thinking… and I guess you are right, it would attract even more immigrants, but isn’t that what border security is for?

I am young yes, so I do not recall anything like the DREAM act happening before. Did it happen, was there some bill before this one? Can you link me? – Side question, was it the ‘bill’ that didn’t work in the past, or just border security?

– For the parents, and whoever else, I would say they can use the DREAM act under the same conditions: military or college, or deport. But that’s a moot point anyways, because you brought up some good point about just ‘ignoring them’. They broke the law of getting here illegally: deal with the consequences.

The thing that makes me a bit uneasy about this idea though, is that many of the kids were brought in when they had no control, i.e., those at a very young age. These kids consider themselves as American as can be, have never been to Mexico, and know English/the culture just as well as I do. They just don’t have the paperwork that says they are American. So what do we do with them?[/quote]

It’s bedtime here in Japan, but let me respond quickly to some of what you asked:

  1. I was referring to the amnesty that was given to so many illegals back in the 80s. They met certain “requirements” and then were put on “a path to citizenship.” This was supposed to “solve” our illegal immigrant problem. Except that it didn’t. In large part, you are right, it was an enforcement issue at the border that caused failure. (Isn’t it always? Which is why people like me say, “Secure then border, THEN we can deal with these other issues.”) But it’d be foolish to think that that amnesty didn’t encourage more illegal immigration.

  2. My reference to the parents was about how they could conceivably file for a green card, and then get citizenship BECAUSE THEIR KIDS HAVE BECOME CITIZENS. This is what I meant by “piggyback.” Make the kids legal, and you may open the door for the parents.

  3. What would I do with these kids? Let them file for legal access FROM THEIR HOME COUNTRY. I wouldn’t be opposed to some amount of prioritization of their paperwork (based on the factors you pointed out), but they should be made to ENTER LEGALLY, like everyone else. Sorry for the pain that this causes, but I guess their parents shouldn’t have put them in that position. (BTW, when did the USA become responsible for fixing the mistakes illegals make with their kids? It’s the parents who made these kids vulnerable, not the US.) After a certain date, NO more prioritization for kids of illegals. [/quote]
    Thanks for the comments… sounds fair enough in my opinion.