T Nation

HOT-ROX vs. ECA Stack


#1

How does HOT-ROX compare to a ECA Stack? Has anyone tried both. I got decent results from the ECA. Although I take out the asprin but interested in the HOT-ROX. Can anyone give me any input.. I also plan to stack that with Methoxy-7.. Thanks


#2

As stated previously, I get significantly better fat-loss results with HOT-ROX. Plus, HOT-ROX doesn't make me feel like my heart is going to blow out of my chest.


#3

That's good to know!! I have lost about 20lbs and I have the scar of letting yourself go "love handle"
So I'm hoping the HOT-ROX will give the cutting edge in my battle with my love handles...

Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time,
but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who
have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and
strengthen your weak knees... Hebrews 12:12-NRSV


#4

My own personal experience with an EC stack (didn't need or use the asprin) was that I could change nothing else, and continue to lose fat, (while continuing to gain strength from training) for up to 4-5 months. If I stayed on it any longer after that, the fat would stay off as long as I was still using it and my strength continued to increase just as it would without the EC (I experimented with it for up to 10 months at a time).

It has always worked for me better than anything else, but I haven't tried the newest version of HOT-ROX yet. I did try the older version of HOT-ROX and finished a bottle without noticing anything, but supplements will react differently with different people.


#5

I have cycled on and off with an Ephedra based fat burner that I bought a bunch of pre-ban always had consistent results with Ephedra. When I take Ephedra my mood is usually much improved as well. Now that I've gotten some Spike, I can get a mood boost when I want in an non-ephedra product. I tried one bottle of HOT-ROX, used it for a month, but didn't notice any real results as far as losing fat.


#6

It seems there's a post like this at least once per year.

I think the problems are generally one or all of the following and there are examples right within this thread:

  1. Person isn't using the product long enough.
  2. Person expects/craves CNS stimulatory effect seen with amphetamine-like compounds such as ephedrine.
  3. Person expects/craves certain psychiatric effects (euphoria primarily) associated with amphetamine-like compounds. In fact, only the combination of caffeine and ephedrine (not either alone) has been shown to cause a statistically significant increase in subjects reporting feeling "high" or greatly euphoric. This is one primary reason many seem to become addicted. Though, some with underlying depression may be more prone.
  4. Ephedrine and caffeine makes for a great anorectic effect. I think in some cases, especially those who have never logged their caloric intake, they experience a reduction in caloric intake without really being cognizant of it.

Here we have people making comparisons of use with 4-5 months versus 1 month.

Even when ephedrine/caffeine is evaluated clinically, you're looking at a 6 month trial. Within that, you're only looking at an average weight loss around 7.5 lb. greater than placebo, and that is again, with 6 months of use.

Without a concurrent and dramatic change in diet (severely hypocaloric), most people cannot "eye" a change in body composition over such a short period of time. This is why I'm so adamant that people have body composition assessed prior to and after use if they're going to use a short period of use to assess efficacy.


#7

Cy, I do agree with your statements. I was one of the one's sadden by the ban of ephedra and pro-hormones. I'm know better then to expect dramatic healthy weight loss in a short period of time, especially with a non-steroidal supplement. I'm just wondering if there is something out there that I can take that will come close to the same effects as ephedra and pro-hormones. I've been away awhile and just trying to get back in the loop.

Thanks Rifle


#8

When you say didn't need the Aspirin are you evaluating the need by the fact when you included the aspirin you did't notice more of a 'buzz' than with Ephedrine and Caffeine alone ?

Its interesting how people seem to evaluate 'fat burners' and thermogenic supplements/drugs by how much their hands were shaking or by how spaced out they felt.

The reason for adding the Aspirin (or white willow for salicylates in some preps) is cos it prevents prostaglandin production outside of the cells.

When stacked with some xanthines, notably caffeine it lengthens the thermogenic effects and increases metabolism by keeping elevated levels of cyclic adenosine monophosphate.

There were other ways to improve the stack too. Some were dubious.

There was a product called Metaform Heat that had both Ephedrine and Yohimbe in it. Then there was the idea of using grapefruit with the stack.

The Grapefruit diet and the action of adding a grapefruit to each meal was supposed to increase metabolism which burned off more fat.

I think the person who actually invented it was on about the fact that the glycoside, naringenin in grapefruit delays the conversion of methylxanthines like caffeine to para-xanthine by cytochrome P450 oxidase enzymic system in the liver, thus prolonging the effects of caffeine. If you like...Caffeine works longer with Naringenin present.

Now I know people were swiggin the juice out of tins of grapefruit to add some naringenin to the ECA stack, and it does increase the buzz quite a bit too I think.

Possibly when using Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin, the effects of all three may be prolonged by naringenin but I don't know. One of the reason adding the grapefruit works well is because the effects the the caffeine may attenuate before the ephedrine and aspirin.

Just my 2p worth.


#9

So, grapefruit never heard of that but that doesn't say much. So in english there are properties in grapefruit that will make the ECA stack more effective?


#10

Although I mentioned it, I should have stressed that processed grapefruit like tinned is processed / macerated and the compound becomes available. So wolfing down some canned grapefruit juice and the debris of grapefruit that floats in the bottom is better than sinking your teeth into a fresh grapefruit.

If you want a study look for this...

Fuhr U, et al. (1993) Inhibitory effect of grapefruit juice and its bitter principal, naringenin, on CYP1A2 dependent metabolism of caffeine in man. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 35(4):43-6.

To answer your Q directly, adding naringenin makes the stack work for longer I suppose and somewhat better from personal experience.

Naringenin posesses other qualities its been documented to have antioxidant effects and some other stuff.


#11

The reason was because I noticed the same fat-loss results when I only took EC (taken for 6 months straight), as compared to when I took the ECA (taken for 10 months straight).

The energy effects I felt were the same, and I never felt 'spaced out' with it. The energy I felt was always the same as what I've always felt with caffeine alone.

The energy feeling subsided after about the first 1.5 to 2 weeks each time I took it, both when I took EC alone, and when I took ECA.

I also remember reading about the ineffectiveness of the aspirin from a trusted author (Will Brink) a while ago, and he gave a convincing argument about it not being necessary.

That was what first lead me to try the EC alone as it was much cheaper than the ECA supplements and more convenient to buy 2 separate pills (the ephedrine and the caffeine) instead of trying to get the right doses of all 3 separately.

It was a while ago and I can't find the article now as it was in a forum that I needed to be a member of and my membership has since run out.

As I said in my first post though, I did not give the new version of HOT-ROX a try yet so I can't really compare, and as Cy pointed out, I probably didn't even give the older version a long enough chance with just one bottle.

I did notice that my appetite decreased a lot while using it, and I had to force myself to eat some of my meals, but I did manage to get them all down.

Another point I wanted to make was that while my strength continued to increase while using it, I don't know how much muscle mass I was losing with it. The strength gains were at probably the same rate it would have without it, so I'm not saying it helped, just that it didn't hinder it.

My maxes in the 3 PL lifts, over the 10 months I was on it went from
B:285-335 S:305-425 DL:315-425.
My body weight went from 165-148 so I'm assuming I was saccrificing muscle durring those 10 months, possibly due to the ECA stack and also the 45 min./3 times a week of fast paced eliptical cardio.


#12

Would you consider increasing you dosage of ephedrine and caffine over a period of time.


#13

No problem, I understand completely.

As a side note, I just talked to Tim and am very excited to say the least. While I can't get in to any details, there's finally direct data demonstrating that HOT-ROX is very much superior to ephedrine/caffeine.

Again though, if one is seeking/craving a supplement which produces euphoria and a strong CNS stimulatory effect, I wouldn't be looking to HOT-ROX.


#14

As far as the comparison, HOT-ROX is better, way better. But yes, it takes longer to see results. I was on the original formula for about 9 weeks and lost considerable amount of fat, most of it came after the first month for some reason. The awesome thing was I gained muscle and strenght on this stuff too, and I was eating below maintenance and I have been lifting 6 years prior so it wasn't any newbie results.

When I use to take the ECA stack, yes, I lost weight, but I think I lost a lot of water weight, as well as it was hard to eat while being on that. I had more of a buzz which helped on leg day but I didn't lose fat faster nor would I gain any muscle. Plus I don't know about you guys, but the ECA stack makes me hornier than hell but my hard-ons are limp when I'm on ephedrine, have no idea why?

And I have a friend (a girl) who I told her to buy the Maximum Strenght HOT-ROX instead of Fahrenheit and told her to use half the dosage. She just got her bodyfat done and she lost 9 lbs of fat in her first 4 weeks on that stuff. But offcourse she has her diet and exercise in order too.

HOT-ROX is way better!!


#15

Sting, Thanks for the clarification!!

Rifle


#16

SWR, ephedrine is thought to impart a marked anti-catabolic effect hence its use after cycles of androgenic testosterone analogues. There would probably have been a muscle loss effect from the reduced calorie intake besides any reductions in adipose tissue.

Apart from the fact it does get you wired in the stack and there are health issues it still is effective and compared to other beta agonists like Clenbuterol does not down regulate as fast, as well as having less of the unwanted side effects like the inotropic and chonotropic effects on the heart.

In summary, use the HOT-ROX the complicated science bit has already been done, all you have to do is take it.


#17

Cy,

I don't get much of the "high" feeling off of the ECA. With that said I am after what would give the better end result" less fat". That would be all the "high" I would need. So if HOT-ROX does it im in.

Thanks,
Rifle


#18

Beta receptors downregulate with continued exposure, so there is less of an effect with increased dosage. If you increase the dosage (of Ephedrine) over a certain (considered therapeutic) level you can negatively effect heart rate etc. It depends on the individual. Other reported side effects of increased long term ephedrine is dopamine depletion and long term damage to the CNS.

As for caffeine in high dosages its metabolic effects include inducing hypoglycaemia and the diuretic effect more severely. In essence like Ephedrine, jacking the dosages up is a bad idea. Best take time off, or use something else.


#19

Beta receptors downregulate with continued exposure, so there is less of an effect with increased dosage. If you increase the dosage (of Ephedrine) over a certain (considered therapeutic) level you can negatively effect heart rate etc. It depends on the individual. Other reported side effects of increased long term ephedrine is dopamine depletion and long term damage to the CNS.

As for caffeine in high dosages its metabolic effects include inducing hypoglycaemia and the diuretic effect more severely. In essence like Ephedrine, jacking the dosages up is a bad idea. Best take time off, or use something else.


#20

Call me old fashioned, but I never liked the wired effects of ECA or other stimulants like Yohimbe. I don't dig anxiety.