T Nation

HOT-ROX Banned Substance?

http://www.wnbf.net/whatisdrugfree.htm

I was looking at some Natural Competitions and found this regarding banned substances

If you look under 2007 LIST OF WNBF BANNED SUBSTANCES you’ll find this statement:

" ?Fat-Burning Prohormone Derivatives such as 3,17-dihydroxy-delta-5-etiocholane-7-one (A7-D), and 3,17-dihydroxy-delta-5-etiocholane-7-one diethylcarbonate (A7-E) are banned effective January 1, 2007.

****(Includes HOT-ROX, Lean System 7, Fahrenheit, etc.) "

HOT-ROX is a banned substance??? I don’t even know what to make of this.

My first thought is if you can buy a supplement legally with out a prescription and over the counter then it should not be banned.

Ridiculous in my opinion.

I think the whole concept is going to fall apart before too long.

There is so much research taking place in so many areas related to body composition, that there will be ongoing advances.

At some point, short of competitions with specific rules, a decision will have to be made about who gets to control what people do with their bodies.

A7-E is derived from a fat burning prohormone?

That’s news to me.

By the common definition in the nutritional supplement industry of a “prohormone” being a substance yielding testosterone or a substance acting like testosterone or other androgen in the body, no, A7-E is not a prohormone, as it has no androgen properties at all, completely does not work at the androgen receptor or via any androgenic means.

Various organizations are so bent against the idea of people improving themselves with anything except food, that I would not be surprised if some will eventually become so paleolithic as to require competitors to eat nothing but the Paleolithic Diet.

It’s their right to do that with their competitors in their organizations if that’s what those owning the organizations want to do. It certainly benefits no one though, except I suppose competitors too cheap to spend even a modest amount on useful nutritional supplements, thus levelling the playing field for them I suppose.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
By the common definition in the nutritional supplement industry of a “prohormone” being a substance yielding testosterone or a substance acting like testosterone or other androgen in the body, no, A7-E is not a prohormone, as it has no androgen properties at all, completely does not work at the androgen receptor or via any androgenic means.
[/quote]

This makes sense, and with reading this im assuming it is not derived from a prohormone either, or is it? For interests sake.

I’m glad the only competition I compete in is life, and I’m pro-supplements when the time is right to use them.

No, it’s derived from the 7-keto-DHEA family, naturally occurring in the body and without androgen effect.

Synthesis-wise, actually it does have “prohormone” precursor, DHEA (which is considered a prohormone) but the 7-keto irreversibly gets it out of that class in terms of biological or pharmacological effect, as it abolishes androgen activity and can’t metabolically be reversed.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
No, it’s derived from the 7-keto-DHEA family, naturally occurring in the body and without androgen effect.

Synthesis-wise, actually it does have “prohormone” precursor, DHEA (which is considered a prohormone) but the 7-keto irreversibly gets it out of that class in terms of biological or pharmacological effect, as it abolishes androgen activity and can’t metabolically be reversed.[/quote]
Bill, how do you know all this stuff!? It’s crazily awesome…

“Bill Roberts holds a bachelor’s degree in Microbiology and Cell Science, and a doctoral degree (Ph.D.) in Medicinal Chemistry. His education was invaluable so far as being able to design/improve nutritional supplement compounds. It was in the field of designing drug molecules and secondarily research expertise in transdermal delivery that he was able to develop such effective formulations such as Biotest MAG-10 (recently scheduled under Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004) and Biotest’s HOT-ROX. The HOT-ROX formulation takes every known advantage of the A7-E Gel delivery system. It’s based upon precision-dosing format, which provides users with the ability to make ideal adjustments between dosage strengths.”

-http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/pharmacology/antiestrogens.htm

Yeah Bill’s been around, search for his name on this site… hes produced many of the products for T-Nation, and has substantial expertise in the field.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/roberts/index.htm

[quote]BoxBabaX wrote:
“Bill Roberts holds a bachelor’s degree in Microbiology and Cell Science, and a doctoral degree (Ph.D.) in Medicinal Chemistry. His education was invaluable so far as being able to design/improve nutritional supplement compounds. It was in the field of designing drug molecules and secondarily research expertise in transdermal delivery that he was able to develop such effective formulations such as Biotest MAG-10 (recently scheduled under Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004) and Biotest’s HOT-ROX. The HOT-ROX formulation takes every known advantage of the A7-E Gel delivery system. It’s based upon precision-dosing format, which provides users with the ability to make ideal adjustments between dosage strengths.”

-http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/pharmacology/antiestrogens.htm

Yeah Bill’s been around, search for his name on this site… hes produced many of the products for T-Nation, and has substantial expertise in the field.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/roberts/index.htm[/quote]

I love reading his posts due to the amazing explanations. Hopefully he wraps up work on Anaconda soon (if he’s working on it)! :wink:

I’m sorry to say and have to disappoint that the Mesomorphosis site is incorrect in saying I have my PhD.

In fact I mentioned it again to Millard at the Arnold this year that I in fact do not have it, having done all my research and had it all published in peer-reviewed journals and having all the academic requirements, all the classes required, but not having ever gotten around to finishing writing the second half of my thesis, once having gone into industry (Biotest) and not really needing it.

I’d never told Millard that I had it either: it’s not by my request that his site says that. What happened is that some author in writing a book was using me as a reference and asked if I would have my PhD by the time the book was published and thus should he reference me as Bill Roberts, PhD. At that time I thought certainly so, all but the last 1% or so of the job being done as it only took me a couple of weeks to write the first half, and said go ahead. Which I should not have done but thought was accurate. I pretty much forgot about it as I never read the book. Millard read it though and, being out of touch with me personally at that point, upgraded my resume at Meso. I find it embarrassing to be wrongly listed that way and hopefully he can get to changing that, as it’s pretty horribly in error in an embarrassing way.

I’ve never been listed on T-mag that way, at least so far as I know I haven’t and certainly shouldn’t have been. (Actually Tim tried pretty hard to get me to put in the few week’s writing to get the PhD, even wanting me to come to Colorado and lock me in a room for a couple of weeks till done, but I didn’t do it.)

Bill, do you work exclusively for Biotest?

Yes, for about the last 6 years or so. Ever since Androsol.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Yes, for about the last 6 years or so. Ever since Androsol.[/quote]

Are you working on the Anaconda project?

Not presently (it isn’t specifically one of my projects.) I put in I guess a hundred hours or so on it over the summer to try to help out with one technical aspect of it, but really didn’t accomplish anything besides ruling out a large number of apparently possible solutions to a given aspect of it, leaving only what we knew in the first place on that aspect :slight_smile:

So really I accomplished nothing.

While not being able to say specifics, I suppose I can give sort of an analogy though certainly not the same thing. As you may recall, Met-Rx was originally a 2-component product rather than being a single component, but this wasn’t very feasible commercially and so it was modified to be single-component.

It wasn’t as good, but still wasn’t bad by any means. Sort of a similar thing, though not the same, with Anaconda as of this summer: there’s a way of delivering the design intent and general formula concept of the product – which I think is principally due to Dr Tim Ziegenfuss – but there was an aspect that was judged somewhat unfeasible and all efforts to “paper that over,” so to speak, regardless of now being feasible weren’t as good and therefore weren’t judged acceptable.

I don’t believe the project has been cancelled, improvement is still being looked for, but as it happens the aspect it was thought I might be able to help on, I wasn’t, except for being able to rule a lot of apparently-potential things out.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Not presently (it isn’t specifically one of my projects.) I put in I guess a hundred hours or so on it over the summer to try to help out with one technical aspect of it, but really didn’t accomplish anything besides ruling out a large number of apparently possible solutions to a given aspect of it, leaving only what we knew in the first place on that aspect :slight_smile:

So really I accomplished nothing.

While not being able to say specifics, I suppose I can give sort of an analogy though certainly not the same thing. As you may recall, Met-Rx was originally a 2-component product rather than being a single component, but this wasn’t very feasible commercially and so it was modified to be single-component.

It wasn’t as good, but still wasn’t bad by any means. Sort of a similar thing, though not the same, with Anaconda as of this summer: there’s a way of delivering the design intent and general formula concept of the product – which I think is principally due to Dr Tim Ziegenfuss – but there was an aspect that was judged somewhat unfeasible and all efforts to “paper that over,” so to speak, regardless of now being feasible weren’t as good and therefore weren’t judged acceptable.

I don’t believe the project has been cancelled, improvement is still being looked for, but as it happens the aspect it was thought I might be able to help on, I wasn’t, except for being able to rule a lot of apparently-potential things out.[/quote]

Hey Bill,

I know this is slightly off topic, but i was wondering what your opinion was on Calcium D Glucarate, and what you feel is an effective dose of it.

Thank you.

Actually I don’t know.

About all I know about it is that it was used in the “M” product of a few years back and the designers of that (Bruce Kneller aka Brock Strasser, and Ryan Johnson) had a good opinion of that compound but I never looked into it myself to any substantial extent.

The mechanism, or at least a mechanism, of its action is limiting reabsortion of estrogen from the GI tract, in others words limiting the recyling wherein it is excreted in bile and then reabsorbed.

The practical benefits, other than that some prone to natural gyno and nipple pain have reported that it helps I don’t know (by which I mean lack of knowledge), in other words I don’t know as to how much this is going to be perceived or quantifiable in terms of body composition change or other benefit but it’s certainly not harmful in the doses used as supplements.

[quote]Panik wrote:

HOT-ROX is a banned substance??? I don’t even know what to make of this.

[/quote]

I liked HOT-ROX before but now that I know it’s a banned substance, I like it even better! I won’t be going into competition so it doesn’t bother me, as long as it doesn’t hurt my body in anyway. HOT-ROX FTW Good job guys on an excellent product!

Well, actually I would hope that this does not spread as the government banning of androgenic prohormones was NOT based on their androgenic properties or even really their muscle-building properties, though this was used as the legal mechanism, but on account of “sanctity of sports” and the “anti-doping” people.

So it’s not a good trend to have sports – though bodybuilding is arguably not a sport – organization banning any supplement.

A7-E isn’t like various other ingredients we could work around and have nearly or as good a product, as with for example we can substitute (to the better actually) Carbolin 19 for Sclaremax, or can either have yohimbine or not, though it’s a little more effective with yohimbine. No A7-E, not as good efficacy. I’d be truly sorry to see it banned by the gov’t, and certainly there’s no rational reason for them to do so.

The hysteria, however, of sports-worshippers determined that they be able to believe their heroes are unaided by anthing, goes way beyond the rational. And it’s a proven fact that politicians will eagerly cater to them, sadly.

As long as we’re warned before time if this does happen so that I can stock up.

Bill, could you possibly give us a little insight into some of the projects you’re currently working on/which are in the pipeline? I find your posts quite interesting.