Wilson pioneered the use of unopposed oestrogen. However, there had been no formal assessment of the safety of oestrogen therapy or its long-term effects. Unopposed oestrogen went out of vogue when it became obviously apparent that it shortened the lifetime of its users. In 1975, The New England Journal of Medicine examined the rates of endometrial cancer for oestrogen consumers, concluding that the risk was seven-and-a-half times greater for oestrogen users. Women who had used oestrogen for seven years or longer were 14 times more likely to develop cancer.5
I have bad PMS and have tried progesterone in the past 2 times and it only makes me really really bloated. i am trying to take low dose of Testo to see if i can get any relief… it certainly helps with energy- there is alot on this thread i dont understand. Hard to find dr’s that can help with the balance at all. all of this seems confusing to me…
thanks
[quote]Wileykit wrote:
I see what you are saying but id’ be too worried about the risks. [/quote]
That is quite understandable, Liz.
I respect that.[quote]
My oestrogen levels went too high after the last implant, because my GP kept not sending my blood test results on to the doctors at hospital so they didn’t know it was getting high. :mad: So if i hadn’t been taking the progesterone for instance, that probably would have been quite risky. Perhaps it’s to cover their backs (and my health), [/quote]
Well, that explains doesn’t it? Also the fact you were still normal levels. If your levels were abnormally low as I was thinking they were and therefore my thinking to compare you to a menopausal woman perhaps your treatment would be small estrogen doses only.
The implants seem like another “simple solution” like the pill in my opinion. The alternative would be to bother to test your estrogen levels regularly to monitor your fluctuation and supplement accordingly and keep track of that. If they are not willing to or are being economical in keeping up the blood tests then it makes sense that they HAVE to cover their backs by giving you a protection. [quote]
Have they tested your progesterone levels? Because thats not a test they perform here, i did ask why a few times but can’t remember the reason. Perhaps it’s difficult to measure?? :S So i’ve no idea what my natural progesterone levels are. Given i’m irritable, i’d say not much 
[/quote]
Yes, I have had all my hormones tested at all phases of my cycle. I have also had a progesterone test done when in England that I requested my GP to order.
I am baffled as to how they have not tested your progesterone levels and are just giving you more.
Progesterone is also known for promoting fibroid tumors. ( along with estrogen ).
I would request a progesterone blood test done follicular and luteal phase ( day 21 usually and fasting - eating can cause progesterone to drop by as much as 50% if I am not mistaken ).[quote]
I should point out my oestrogen levels were at the lower end of normal range, not abnormally low. I can’t remember what your levels were at. And perhaps my doc would prescribe very low amounts of oestrogen without progesterone but they wouldn’t be high enough to shut down my own ovaries, therefore i would still get PMS. Perhaps it would help though. Again, I will ask my doc! [/quote] It looks like to me that you are not just trying to supplement a low estrogen state ( which I misunderstood for being below normal ) you are actually trying to get a contraceptive treatment.
If that is the case it complicates things a lot more.
Maybe if you had just wanted to compensate the low estrogen levels you would have less side effects.
Shutting down your own production of everything to achieve contraception as well as increasing low range estrogen levels is different than being treated for “low estrogen”. [quote]
All i know is i take the progesterone to stabilise my womb and i take it as pessary, and the implant near my womb, so perhaps this is how it exerts its protective effects! I’m not a doctor!! I will read the links but i trust Dr Panay and doubt he would stop me having the treatment without progesterone without good reason… [/quote]
I think that they are giving you birth control albeit in a different way.
That hormonal replacement combined with your vegetarian lifestyle may yield some of the problems you are having, specially if you have been on some form of birth control for a long time.
[quote]qkcam wrote:
I have bad PMS and have tried progesterone in the past 2 times and it only makes me really really bloated. i am trying to take low dose of Testo to see if i can get any relief… it certainly helps with energy- there is alot on this thread i dont understand. Hard to find dr’s that can help with the balance at all. all of this seems confusing to me…
thanks [/quote]
Hey Yeah thats what it does to me too!! Which bits don’t you understand and i can try to explain?
The treatment i’m taking for PMS is natural oestrogen implants. It works by shutting down the ovaries, which stops the natural hormone fluctuations, causing pms (with their effects on brain chemicals). It’s still an experimental treatment, not sure if available in the US? Are you based in the US? But you still have to take progesterone with it which unfortunately outweighs the benefits for me now, although it worked for me for years.
Alpha F:
No they haven’t tested my progesterone levels, i think he said it wasn’t that useful. I’m not sure if any of the blood tests are that accurate for hormones? What do you guys think?
No you are confused. My hormone levels (oestrogen and testosterone) are naturally low, until i take the implants which boosts them back to normal… my oestrogen levels were on the low side before i went on the oestrogen patch/and then the implant because the patches were not that effective for me. Since i have come off the implants, oestrogen is dropping and will soon be back to previously low levels. And that is what i’m concerned about and want to raise it, as oestrogen does make you feel good. The oestrogen went too high because i asked for the higher implant as was feeling moody but coz of more drama with GP (them refusing to do something so simple as forward my blood test results on to the hospital, lazy bastards!!), this resulted in me having more oestrgen that i should have had. So i’m just saying it is a good thing i was taking the progesterone as that could have been dangerous otherwise.
The implant treatment for PMS IS supposed to work similarly to the pill, in that it stops the ovaries producing oestrogen. But i am not taking it for contraceptive purposes, and it has not be proven to work as a contraceptive. It is the monthly fluctuations in oestrogen and progesterone that affect the brain and cause the mood swings associated with PMS. The implants are a better solution to the contraceptive pill though as they are much lower levels, and they are bioidentical hormones (not synthetic).
The hospital are not being economical in blood tests, i requested my GP do the blood test because I live so far away from Hammersmith hospital, and it takes a good half day to travel down to get the test. It is much easier to have the blood test done locally, and I now take the blood test results with me, since GPs can’t be bothered writing to the hospital with them. There is no point in supplementing oestrogen in the same way my body produces it, as it’s the fluctuating levels that cause the mood swings.
I’m going to ask about the progesterone test next time.
Yes it’s true, they were giving me oestrogen for PMS/to shut down the ovaries, not to supplement my low oestrogen state… however a side effect of that, is that it does increase my oestrogen levels overall which i think is a good thing? 
I now want to do things naturally though, as drugs give me too many sideeffects 
Liz,
I had a progesterone test in the UK. It was as accurate as any other.
I do not know why your full hormonal profile has not been done.
I have found that the estrogen pill 1 mg I was prescribed here is available in the UK:
http://www.medicines.org.uk/guides/estradiol/hormone%20replacement%20therapy
You could ask/fight with your doctor to try 1/2 mg of that with progesterone injections ( to by pass your gut ) as an option to implants which are harder to control.
Being that you want to be drug free you could just come off everything, get a blood test of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone to see where you are at, and attempt to treat your PMS through eating Lamb Dahl from Tesco ( one of my favorites ), three times a week from day fourteen of your period. If that is too late, start eating the meat from day 1 to day 14 so this way you respect your conscience and stay vegetarian for one half of your cycle and the other half you are “having treatment with meat”.
Start lifting heavy weights to help your bone density and bring out that animal in you.
Thanks Alpha, that sounds like a good option! 
Lamb dahl sounds nice, i will look for it!
Lol
By the way, do you know anything about adrenal fatigue? Is it a real condition and can you get tested for it in the US? Trying to get anything through the NHS is a real pain at the minute tho so doubt they would test me!
[quote]Wileykit wrote:
Thanks Alpha, that sounds like a good option!
Lamb dahl sounds nice, i will look for it!
Lol
[/quote] I really miss just walking into my local Tesco and picking up that dish - America does not like lamb so it is expensive and rare to find, [quote]
By the way, do you know anything about adrenal fatigue? Is it a real condition and can you get tested for it in the US? Trying to get anything through the NHS is a real pain at the minute tho so doubt they would test me! [/quote]
Yes, I had adrenal fatigue coming out of my operation and hormonal treatment two years ago.
It is a very discouraging state to be in ( you have no choice but to surrender temporarily ).
I self-diagnosed through online tests and a blood cortisol test.
However, I hear the cortisol levels need to be tested 4 times a day to be accurate.
Ksman may know more accurately than I do as I assume he is connected to the Life Extension Foundation.
It is real in the sense one experiences a burn out at a hormonal level. It is not real in the sense that it is not medically accepted as an ailment ( i.e. one would never be diagnosed as having “adrenal fatigue” ).
This is from the Mayo Clinic:
These people here in the US claim to test for it but I don’t know who they are:
If you are suspecting adrenal fatigue I suggest you take it seriously and follow the steps to recovery.
I’m not sure if i have it. i just came across it looking for things that could affect my hormone levels. What symptoms did you get? I am tired a lot of the time but i don’t go to bed earlier than midnight and i try to cram too many hobbies into my life on top of work, so it’s probably my own fault!
ps and how did you fix it? I came across some pills that had cow adrenal’s or something, in them yuk!
Unlucky, i used to like lamb too before i went veggie
[quote]Wileykit wrote:
I’m not sure if i have it. i just came across it looking for things that could affect my hormone levels. What symptoms did you get? I am tired a lot of the time but i don’t go to bed earlier than midnight and i try to cram too many hobbies into my life on top of work, so it’s probably my own fault! :P[/quote]
I suspect that if you still have the drives for hobbies you most likely are not suffering from adrenal fatigue.
The symptoms are a range and the online tests I took allow you to score on different levels of adrenal fatigue.
There are also other factors that could be causing your tiredness including the weather and lifestyle in London; including fighting the system ( NHS ).
Maybe it would be a welcome break to stop the HRT and just focus on eating that lamb dahl again and remembering of the simple pleasures and the carefree life of when you were that pre menstruating child that just enjoyed your lamb,
Sometimes, a return to a simple life can do wonders to heal some of our self inflicted civilized wounds…
[quote]Wileykit wrote:
ps and how did you fix it? I came across some pills that had cow adrenal’s or something, in them yuk!
[/quote]
No pills. No stimulants. No fighting. No stress. No doing even in the form of undoing.
A down time of non-action.
And a short cycle of HGH - which did not seem to do much so I stopped after two weeks.
It was mostly having the humility to accept and acquiesce that I was over and out physically and psychologically and did not know when I was going to be back again.
Wrong: “Progesterone is also known for promoting fibroid tumors.” ( along with estrogen ).
Progesterone can shrink enlarged endrometrial lining and fibroids. I worked with gal here who had fibroids and her docs wanted a hysterectomy. She got very aggressive with progesterone and actually lowered her E2 with anastrozole. She actually expelled her fibroids. Sounds very strange, but that is what happened.
Perhaps progestins, by suppressing progesterone, can contribute to fibroids by leading to estrogen dominance.
I am not affiliated with LEF
Adrenal fatigue can involve low cortisol and increased rT3. rT3 blocks T3 receptors and can create hypothyroid symptoms even when fT3 and fT4 are ideal. In that case you will see low body temperatures when waking and/or mid afternoon. These low temperatures also occur with subclinical or frank hypothyroidism. And such problems can be from iodine deficiency and then resolved with iodine replenishment. See ‘thyroid basics’ sticky.
In the male TRT context, we see a many of the guys have low body temperatures and a lack of dietary iodine.
Women have a higher need for iodine than men. Breast tissue stores iodine and iodine deficiencies are associated with fibrotic breast disease and iodine replenishment has been shown to be able to resolve that. So iodine is more important than most would realize. Iodine in breast tissue may have a critical role to play in delivery of iodine to babies.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Wrong: “Progesterone is also known for promoting fibroid tumors.” ( along with estrogen ). [/quote]
“There is another theory and counter-opinion about the relationship of progesterone to uterine fibroids. Dr. Mitchell Rein and his colleagues at Brigham and Womenâ??s Hospital published a report in 1995 stating that not only is there no evidence that estrogen directly stimulates myoma growth, but that it is actually progesterone and progestins that promote the growth of fibroids. The authors site the biochemical, histologic, and clinical evidence that supports an important role for progesterone and progestins in the growth of uterine myomas.”
Uterine Fibroids – Women’s Health Update « Dr. Tori Hudson, N.D. [quote]
Progesterone can shrink enlarged endrometrial lining and fibroids. I worked with gal here who had fibroids and her docs wanted a hysterectomy. She got very aggressive with progesterone and actually lowered her E2 with anastrozole. She actually expelled her fibroids. Sounds very strange, but that is what happened.
Perhaps progestins, by suppressing progesterone, can contribute to fibroids by leading to estrogen dominance.
[/quote]
It was inconclusive to me. I was using progesterone because I believed the above but when I showed up with the fibroids in spite of using progesterone and when I read the other theory, including a treatment of uterine fibroids with a progesterone antagonist and how that resolved the fibroid, I made a personal decision to stop the progesterone for this part of my treatment and I am using Masteron instead.
http://www.touchbriefings.com/pdf/3185/wiehle.pdf
http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/26/3/423.full
I am booked for another ultrasound in 6 weeks ( the doctor is actually not concerned at all about the fibroids in my uterus - I am ) for the ovarian cyst which I believe is causing my severe back pain ( among other symptoms ). If the size of either tumor does not reduce I will reconsider taking progesterone again and doing another ultra sound.
But for now I decided to eliminate the progesterone and see if I can shrink both tumors with the Masteron.
All I know is that my endocrine system was perfect until a medical mistake led me into to taking a GnRH agonist and only after it was out of my system did I begin to develop fibroids and ovarian cysts.
However, the ovarian cysts are suspected for my only having one ovary and one fallopian tube now and the FSH and LH being on over drive to produce the estrogen for the mission organs. ( That is the theory ).
I really feel for you Alpha, thats really horrible that someone’s mistake has left you so ill Did you ask about compensation at the time because it must be expensive to fix this?
What is Masteron?
Let us know how you get on, off the progesterone…
KSman: I started the idiodine supplements. Had to wait til I stopped progesterone before i can take my temperature again (as it raises body temperature), why i haven’t posted temps yet…!
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
Maybe it would be a welcome break to stop the HRT and just focus on eating that lamb dahl again and remembering of the simple pleasures and the carefree life of when you were that pre menstruating child that just enjoyed your lamb,
Sometimes, a return to a simple life can do wonders to heal some of our self inflicted civilized wounds…
[/quote]
yeah i think so. Even the doc said once that if a medication is making you tired it can affect your body in other ways. So i think coming off the progesterone will definately help. Although i am noticing my mood dropping month by month
[quote]Wileykit wrote:
I really feel for you Alpha, thats really horrible that someone’s mistake has left you so ill Did you ask about compensation at the time because it must be expensive to fix this?
What is Masteron?
Let us know how you get on, off the progesterone…[/quote]
Liz, thank you kindly for your concern.
In this instance I chose to put it down to experience, let go off the past and move on with the lesson learned.
Masteron is an antiestrogen and androgenic drug designed for women. It is clinically used as an antiestrogenic treatment for estrogen dependant tumors in breast cancer victims.
I was not making any improvement without the progesterone so I decided to do the 2 week luteal phase protocol on the theory that shrinking the ovarian cyst is a greater priority ( these cysts can create excess estrogen ) than the uterine fibroid.
If the progesterone makes the fibroid worse I can stop it after I try to shrink or burst the ovarian cyst ( the previous one burst ).
I am however using the injection intra muscularly.
I have read more of the book KSman recommended.
The doctor talks about Tri-Est and progesterone creams to apply vaginally that will only affect and protect your uterus ( you asked for this in the first page - it does exist ).
Women can also apply the progesterone cram to their breasts.
He does mention women who are highly sensitive to progesterone.
He also talks about women of your age and supplementing estrogen and puts emphasis on doing it only in conjunction with progesterone.
I agree with his approach that he teaches the woman to find the right dosage for her.
His treatment does not shut down the woman’s own production of estrogen.
From personal experience I have found that anything that has shut down my own ovaries has left me fatigued and with side effects to recover from.
He has very few dietary recommendations; The doctor mentions Maca but does not give any dosage ( my husband recommends the raw powder over the extracts at a nutritional supplement dosage of 3 to 5 g ) and taking soy supplements which contain phytoestrogens called isoflavones. He says: “You need 50 to 150 milligrams of isoflavones daily. The isoflavones should be 50% genistein, 40% daidzein, and 10% glycitein.” page 58.
He also talks about equine based estrogen.
I find his approach to make more sense and more natural with what an actual natural hormone would do.
I would get the book and research to see if you were taking actual natural estrogen and natural progesterone.
Additionally, even the micronized progesterone in pills are delivered with oil. They are not “pure” progesterone.
You could also look at estriol creams:
And get the progesterone vaginal gel and/or the cream for the breasts for the “warranty policy”.
[quote]Wileykit wrote:
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
Maybe it would be a welcome break to stop the HRT and just focus on eating that lamb dahl again and remembering of the simple pleasures and the carefree life of when you were that pre menstruating child that just enjoyed your lamb,
Sometimes, a return to a simple life can do wonders to heal some of our self inflicted civilized wounds…
[/quote]
yeah i think so. Even the doc said once that if a medication is making you tired it can affect your body in other ways. So i think coming off the progesterone will definately help. Although i am noticing my mood dropping month by month
[/quote]
I would be more inclined to think your fatigue is coming from having your ovaries being shut down for 7 years.
I would read the book Ksman recommended and tailor your own dosage of estrogen and progesterone without shutting you down.
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
I would be more inclined to think your fatigue is coming from having your ovaries being shut down for 7 years.
I would read the book Ksman recommended and tailor your own dosage of estrogen and progesterone without shutting you down.
[/quote]
ok will do, thanks.
They are bioidentical hormones! oestradiol and natural progesterone, wouldn’t take it otherwise, i hated contraceptives! Thanks for all the other info, will look into it… The fatigue is worse off the HRT, not sleeping well a lot of the time probably doesn’t help, prob just mild stress.
I would love to stay on the oestrogen, it really helps me. So perhaps the prog cream would work, he did offer me it i think, but i was worried i wouldn’t be able to measure the dose as accurately.
What lesson did you learn? Not to trust doctors?!