How important is an anti-E sup like M or 6-oxo when you are taking prolonged cycles of Tribex and Red Kat? Are sups for anti-E only important with prohormones? I understand that they can only help by increasing the effectiveness of the Test boost you are getting, but is it necessary to ward off any side effects or other unwanted outcomes…?
Both Redkat and Tribex work by increasing natural, endogenous test levels, meaning that side effects typically involved with added eXogenous test (like supplementation with prohormones or AASs) such as endogenous test shutdown, etc. are not a problem, so no there’s no need really for anti e’s however in my opinion they can only help. For instance whenever I’m not using a PH then I’m always on Tribex and M.
I was wondering this same thing.
Honestly… the only time you need an anti-E is post steroid/pro-horomone use or if it is prescribed by a competent doctor. Don’t dick with your endocrine system if you don’t have to.
No you dont need any anti e during the use of either of these. You are boosting yor natural ability to oproduce test. not supplementing it with a foreign compound which shuts down your production like a PH/AAS. So no you really dont need them, but they can help if your est. levels are naturally high.
Hope that helps.
I would probably take a different position on the value of an anti-estrogen when taking testosterone-enhancing supps. If the goal is to increase testosterone levels, an anti-estrogen like M is highly complementary.
Testosterone is converted to estrogen by an enzyme called aromatase. Aromatase is present in all fat cells, in the liver and even in muscles. Obesity, estrogenic chemicals in the environment (also called xeno-estrogens), nutritional deficiencies, medications and alcohol can all cause excessive levels of estrogen to accumulate, either by enhancing conversion of testosterone to estrogen or reducing the liver’s ability to eliminate excess levels of estrogen.
High levels of estrogen can result in increases in body fat and make losing body fat all the more difficult. High levels of estrogen are also responsible for diabetes, cardiovascular disease, cancer, prostate enlargement. Finally, and worst of all, high levels of estrogen result in REDUCED levels of testosterone. The hypothalamus (which you can think of as the brain’s thermostat) decides if enough testosterone is present in the blood based on how much estrogen is present. If estrogen levels are high, the hypothalamus shuts down production of testosterone. So the take-home message here is: Another way to raise testosterone levels even higher is to LOWER estrogen levels.
Age plays a factor in the ratio of T to E, too. A healthy young man in his 20s may have 50 times as much testosterone as estrogen. However, in older men sometimes testosterone has dropped so low and estrogen risen so high that the ratio has declined to as low as 3 to 1.
Not everyone needs an anti-estrogen like M. However, the following people would probably benefit:
Anyone over the age of 45-50. As men age, ever higher percentages of testosterone are converted to estrogen.
Anyone who has a high BF%. The fat cells contain a high amount of the aromatase enzyme, which converts testosterone to estrogen.
Anyone with low zinc or Vitamin C intake.
Anyone who smokes cigarettes. Nicotine and the cadmium interfere with zinc.
Anyone with impaired liver function, specifically the P450 detoxification system. The P450 detoxification system converts estradiol (the more active form of estrogen) into weaker forms.
Anyone who drinks more than 5 alcoholic beverages/drinks a week.
Anyone who takes antibiotics, anti-fungal medication or cholesterol-lowering medications.
Anyone who takes anti-inflammatory medications like aspirin, Tylenol, NSAIDS.
Anyone who takes antidepressants like Prozac, Zoloft, etc.
Anyone who takes heart medications; i.e., beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, etc.
Anyone who partakes of recreational drugs; i.e., marijuana, amphetamines, cocaine.
Anyone who is exposed to pesticides or chemicals. These contain xeno-estrogens (synthetic compounds that act like estrogen in the body).
Terry- You’re unbelievable. Great post.
Thanks to all of you for your input. I was leaning towards using an anti-E more for it’s synergistic effects and less for avoiding side effects of increased E. Thanks to TT for the amazing expansion of this topic. I have used 6-oxo in the past, but I think it is a bit pricey. Looks like M is going to next join my regimen.
Wow, that was amazing Terry!
Outstanding post, TT!
Just to add a little…if you fit into one (or more) of the catagories that TT brought up…it is beneficial to periodically have your Total and Free Testosterone and Estradiol checked.
Current thinking is that it is the RATIO of Free Testostrone to Estrogen (Estrodiol)that is most important, even when one is considering the effects on the prostate. While the “ideal” ratio is still being studied, Free Testosterone should predominate.
Again…great post TT!
Thanks for the kind words, guys!
M is a very well designed product, one for which there is a real need. It’s always made me a little sad that it was underappreciated and underutilized. I guess the reason I did the research I did and posted the post that I did is I feel that we have to understand something’s value before we’re likely to make it a part of our program.
Honestly, I just scratched the surface where M is concerned. The main ingredient, calcium d-glucarate, has a whole host of health benefits, in addition to supporting/increasing high(er) T levels.
One other thought…
DHEA is EXTREMELY important in the overall modulation of the SHBG (steriod hormone binding globulin)/Testosterone/Estrogen Axis.
I’ll get you guys a link a little later on DHEA protocol.
SHBG = sex hormone binding globulin
An excerp from a book dealing with similar matters is below. Cant remember the name of the book at present.
The “conclusions” drawn from the information below are still subject to much debate depending on who you ask. Some discussion may also be misleading…depending on who you ask.
A search for “SHBG Roberts” will lead to some more discussion.
[quote]"Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, …(cut out cause it does not deal with this forum)…, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis.
Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less (is) converted at the aromatase enzyme.
My mistake on the SHBG!
For the most part, DHEA supplementation will increase estrogen in most males.
So will supplementation with exogenous Testosterone.
This is one of the reasons (among others) why many older men see very little response even though they may be taking loads of Testosterone… and it’s also the reason for the side effects like gynecomastia in Bodybuilders. If one does not address aromitization, you in fact can make things worse.
ANYONE INVOLVED IN HRT THREAPY MUST DO THE FOLLOWING:
Monitor Total and Free Testosterone
Supplement with anti-estrogens/anti-aromitization agents.