Honest Question For Non-Christians

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Damici wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? This is an honest question. It would seem that very few people are converted later in life. I have been a Christian for a long time, and I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian. I have a few ideas for why people don?t believe, but I would prefer to hear it before I state something that would corrupt my findings. Again, I am looking for ?point blank? reasons for not believing. Bullet statements would work best.

Me Solomon Grundy

What is the main reason you do not believe in the prophet Mohammed, or in Islam?

I am not putting you off, but I want to get a few more responses to the question before I throw any specifics out there. I will say that over the past few years I have taken a much deeper look at what I believe and why. Some of my conclusions have changed. My faith, however, has gotten stronger.

Me solomon Grundy
[/quote]

I’m not sure if I’m one who qualifies as a complete non-believer – I was raised Catholic but don’t believe in Catholocism per se, as I just believe it’s a corrupt, man-made, incorrect interpretation of Christianity. If you’re gonna’ be a Christian, at least do it respectably, for goodness’ sake! And I guess right now I’m kind of on the “agnostic fence,” as my belief in dogmatic, organized religion fades by the day.

My point is, I’m not sure if I’m the best one to answer your question. But what I was getting at with the question I posed is that the reason many don’t believe in Christianity is the same reason you don’t believe in Islam: you weren’t brought up in an environment/household/family situation/culure, etc. which indoctrinated you, starting at a very young age, to do so. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, for example, you’d have been raised to be a Muslim, and you would believe in the prophet Mohammed. But you weren’t. Same goes for someone who was born into a non-religious, or atheist, or agnostic household in the U.S.

Make sense?

22

[quote]Damici wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
hspder wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above?

From my point of view, the question is: why should I?

There’s absolutely no reason I can fathom for me to believe in any of those things. So I don’t. Simple as that.[/quote/]

What was the first thing you thought of? Out of all the reason’s to not believe you had to think of one. If the question doesn’t work for you, then try this one. What evedence would you accept. Something as realistic as possible.

Me Solomon Grundy

If you qualify the question is “something as realistic as possible,” you’re not likely to get any answers, because those who don’t already believe are not likely to “come around” to believing without some extraordinary proof/reason to do so. Capice?[/quote]

I got ya. I was tying to avoid the only acceptable evidence as being “face to Face” contct or something like that. realistic is probably not the best choice of words,
point taken.

Me Solomon Grundy

23

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
What was the first thing you thought of? Out of all the reason’s to not believe you had to think of one. If the question doesn’t work for you, then try this one. What evedence would you accept. Something as realistic as possible.

Damici wrote:
If you qualify the question is “something as realistic as possible,” you’re not likely to get any answers, because those who don’t already believe are not likely to “come around” to believing without some extraordinary proof/reason to do so. Capice?

Solomon Grundy wrote:
I got ya. I was tying to avoid the only acceptable evidence as being “face to Face” contct or something like that. realistic is probably not the best choice of words,
point taken.
[/quote]

What would convince me of the existence of a God (generally)?

I really don’t know. If it was something I could imagine happening, it wouldn’t be enough – it would have to be something so extraordinary I cannot imagine it.

To convince me that a specific faith (Christianity, Islamism, etc.) and its Holy Book to be “the one” would require even more, since the piles of evidence disproving just about any possible interpretation of every story told in any Holy Book are so immense, nothing short of a divine revelation of an unquestionable interpretation of one of those books would do.

Problem is, that would deny the concept of faith, wouldn’t it?

24

[quote]Damici wrote:
My point is, I’m not sure if I’m the best one to answer your question. But what I was getting at with the question I posed is that the reason many don’t believe in Christianity is the same reason you don’t believe in Islam: you weren’t brought up in an environment/household/family situation/culure, etc. which indoctrinated you, starting at a very young age, to do so. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, for example, you’d have been raised to be a Muslim, and you would believe in the prophet Mohammed. But you weren’t. Same goes for someone who was born into a non-religious, or atheist, or agnostic household in the U.S.

Make sense?[/quote]

Oh yeah. You’re right on the money!

25

I find it kind of difficult to sum up my reasoning in a simple statement, but basically it’s due to my understanding of human nature, and the abscence of proof or logical reasons.

It just seems like the spiritual equivalent of morphine. For humanity in general, the idea of not having an answer to lifes’ difficult questions is unbearable. For example, the question of what happens after we die. How many people could comfortably accept the idea that we no longer exist, in any form, after death?

Most people believe because to do otherwise is terrifying.

There was a thread a while back about scientology, and I honestly couldn’t say that their religions’ foundation was a lot less believable than any other religion. I’m not saying it isn’t less believable, but come on, god impregnating a virgin vs. Xenu imprisoning alien souls on earth?

As was previously stated by someone else, for every arguement for the existence of god, there is a counter. This lead me to asking myself the question:

If there is no proof or logical arguement to swing my opinion one way or the other, which would be the most comfortable position? It just seemed too easy, and therefore unlikely, that Christianity (or the other religions) had the right answer.

There are repeated instances throughout human history of people exploiting and manipulating others through their desire to believe. If anything, I like to learn from others mistakes. Hell, if scientology was created as a cash grab, is it any more unlikely that there were vested interests at stake in the creation of the other world religions?

26

As an atheist/agnostic, I’d like to chime in.

To an educated mind, bowing to your god would be totally out of question.

What do I mean with educated?
Certainly not a degree or a grand paycheck.
Only a certain level of general education and the ability to put facts in perspective using reason, logic and some experience with people is required.

What do I mean with bowing?
To subdue myself morally to this whole farce.
You see, there is no real sacrifice involved, which is a fascinating conclusion- Why do so many christians insist to repent (like here on T-Nation), when practically nothing would change?

Do most christians truly sacrifice anything in their lives to their religion? Nope.
It’s just an aggressive form of a ritualistic cultural takeover.

Most humans feel best if their habitat is culturally homogeneous. Else they feel confused, unsure and nervous.
And I won’t convert so others can feel better. And don’t tell me you pray for my soul cause you don’t want me to rot in hell.

What do I mean with your god?
The angry SOB from that dusty old tome people call the bible.
If he is really THE Gawd, we’re all royally fucked - and that includes all devout christians.
(don’t think I really consider this as a possibility. It’s not that I have a problem with HIS awesome style and don’t understand the old texts properly - it’s a hypothetical statement)

Why is it out of the question?
Here is where the discussion begins- and at the same time, it doesn’t.
If yout try to defend yourself/convince me using the bible, we cannot have a real conversation.
If you sincerely let off the holy book arguments and use only reason, logic and your education we can have a newborn atheist in less than ten minutes.

A short list of knockout arguments:

Religions exist all over the world. Most of them share some elements (especially if they’re from the same region like judaism, christianity and islam) , some of them are totally different.
There is no explanation for this other than your religion is somewhat flawed.
Don’t come with arguments like: It’s just that other countries have a different approach.
Wrong. Religion is one the major backbones of culture. If god did his homework, the chinese would have a similar culture. Clearly confusing.

Why didn’t he come earlier?
Poor greeks. Had some of the smartest nerds in history. They’re all gonna burn cause Jesus was late. I’m certain it’s according to the mysterious & divine plan we won’t understand.

If religion wouldn’t exist, you’d have to invent it.
If someone doesn’t understand the historical impact of religion, he is probably not very bright or not very educated, thus being a potential christian.
If you do understand it however, you’d know that religion was always an essential tool to maintain a civilization.
In nearly every twist and rule in the strange big book you regard as holy you can clearly see that it was written by people, not a gawd.

So- there is not really a main thing that holds me back, like: I dunno , but I think he won’t love me since I’m a jerk!

It’s more the other way round. There is no argument for me to even consider changing my attitude.

The sad thing is, once people have changed, they often live a lifelong lie.
Practically no christian will have the courage to openly admit: I was an idiot for believing this crap! Oh how I lied to myself only to have the comfort of not feeling so alone and enjoy the luxury of others telling me what’s right and what’s wrong.

Darn, it’s late!
Until later…

27

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Faith is belief without seeing, and it’s difficult to force onesself to believe in something without specific reasons for doing so. It is easier to figure out (and perhaps to restore the faith of) people who have lost their faiths because of an event or series of events.

I’d also direct you to Pascal, who points out that faith (and ultimately salvation) are not within realm of human power. All anyone can do is hope that true faith will be granted by the Holy Spirit.

When some proselytizers have stopped me to try to “convert” me, I have, in the past, tried to make them understand the problem: For every rational “proof” they try to tell me of the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus, I can give a rational “proof” that contradicts it. Ultimately, all their words rest on the authority of men, who could have lied or been mistaken. As such, the only possible means of conversion would have to be a personal experience of God that would give me a supra-rational reason to believe.[/quote]

In the words of Jesus, “You are not very far from the Kingdom of God.”

ASK and ye shall recieve my friend.

28

Strong survival instinct combined with a brain that can contemplate its own death results in a cognitive dissonance for which religion is the obvious cure. The concept of my own nonexistence is terribly disturbing to me. I assume that others feel the same and will believe almost anything or convince themselves of almost anything if it helps to avoid such thoughts. I don’t like the idea of being manipulated, even by parts of my own brain.

That’s why I’m not a believer, but becoming non-religious came first. God, as presented by the world’s major monotheistic religions, is a jerk (mystical and obfuscated excuses for his behavior are always given). As a young teenager, I found the idea of such a god to be distasteful and implausible, and so I left the church. Even if I had not eventually become a non-believer, becoming non-religious was pretty much a given.

29

Why? Because I’m a Catholic, and I used to be a loyal one. And this is the shit that I find out when I get older…

30

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Faith is belief without seeing, and it’s difficult to force onesself to believe in something without specific reasons for doing so. It is easier to figure out (and perhaps to restore the faith of) people who have lost their faiths because of an event or series of events.

I’d also direct you to Pascal, who points out that faith (and ultimately salvation) are not within realm of human power. All anyone can do is hope that true faith will be granted by the Holy Spirit.

When some proselytizers have stopped me to try to “convert” me, I have, in the past, tried to make them understand the problem: For every rational “proof” they try to tell me of the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus, I can give a rational “proof” that contradicts it. Ultimately, all their words rest on the authority of men, who could have lied or been mistaken. As such, the only possible means of conversion would have to be a personal experience of God that would give me a supra-rational reason to believe.

In the words of Jesus, “You are not very far from the Kingdom of God.”

ASK and ye shall recieve my friend.
[/quote]

Give me money then, fucker!

31

What drove me away was the “big picture” of Christianity more than the details. I’m not asking people to answer these these things. I’ve read the same rationalizations you have, I just don’t think they make any sense.

Why would a loving God create evil?

Even if I have free will, every choice I eventually make is merely the product of a million different factors all of which were in God’s control when he created the universe and everything in it–from my brain chemistry and genetics to every thing I’ve ever been exposed to that had any kind of influence on me.

In it’s simplest form, to me it comes down to asking “Can God say he created everything, but that he really didn’t know if Eve was going to eat that apple?” The answer is no. If I set up a bunch of dominoes in a room in which I created EVERY variable (including the physical laws that govern it–from gravity to friction to inertia), can I honestly say I didn’t know whether the last one in line was going to fall or not? Would it make sense for me to curse it when it did?

If God was going to punish me for not believing his word it was on him to provide his complete truth in a way that was clear, undeniable, and unable to be altered throughout history. If a flaming bush talks to me, I’ll listen. That doesn’t take much faith. Tell me a flaming bush talked to some guy 6000 years ago and if I don’t believe it I’m going to burn forever, then we have a problem.

If God was just he would not have provided his “truth” in a manner that has caused even the people who are willing to take the first two giant leaps of believing there is a god and Jesus was his son to end up with this many different sects:

Churches closely related to, but not in full communion with, the Catholic Church

* American Catholic Church in the United States
* Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church
* Catholic Apostolic Church
* Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA)
* Catholic Life Church
* Celtic Catholic Church
* Charismatic Episcopal Church
* Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association
* Christ Catholic Church
* Liberal Catholic Church
* Mariavite Church
* North American Old Catholic Church
* Old Catholic Church
* Palmarian Catholic Church
* Philippine Independent Church
* Polish National Catholic Church
* Sedevacantism
* True Catholic Church

Nestorianism

* Assyrian Church of the East
* Church of the East and Abroad

Orthodox Christianity
Eastern Orthodox Churches
Greater Eastern Orthodox Communion
(In order of precedence. Indentation indicates autonomy rather than autocephaly)

* Orthodox Church of Constantinople: the Ecumenical Patriarchate
      o Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai
      o Orthodox Church of Finland
      o Orthodox Church of Estonia
* Orthodox Church of Alexandria
* Antiochian Orthodox Church
      o Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
* Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
* Russian Orthodox Church
      o Chinese Orthodox Church
      o Japanese Orthodox Church
      o Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC-MP)
      o Metropolia of Western Europe
* Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church
* Serbian Orthodox Church
      o Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric
* Romanian Orthodox Church
* Bulgarian Orthodox Church
* Cypriot Orthodox Church
* Church of Greece
* Polish Orthodox Church
* Albanian Orthodox Church
* Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church
* Orthodox Church in America

Other Eastern Orthodox Churches

* Greek Old Calendarists
* Belorussian Orthodox Church
* Macedonian Orthodox Church
* Russian Old Believers
* Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia

from Ukrainian Orthodox Church:

* Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
* Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate

Oriental Orthodox Communion

* Armenian Apostolic Church
* Coptic Orthodox Church
* Ethiopian Orthodox Church
* Eritrean Orthodox Church
* Indian Orthodox Church ("Malankara Syrian")
* Syrian Orthodox Church ("Jacobite Syrian")

Protestantism
Protestants before Luther

* Hussites
      o Moravians
      o Unity of the Brethren
* Lollards
* Waldensians

Lutheranism

* American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
* Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
* Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
* Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
* Church of the Lutheran Confession
* Concordia Lutheran Conference
* Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference
      o All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria - Nigeria
      o Bulgarian Lutheran Church - Bulgaria
      o Christ the King Lutheran (Nigeria) - Nigeria
      o Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church (Mexico) - Mexico
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church "Concord" - Russia
      o Confessional Lutheran Church (Latvia) - Latvia
      o Czech Evangelical Lutheran Church - Czech Republic
      o Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Finland) - Finland
      o Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Puerto Rico) - Puerto Rico
      o Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany) - Germany
      o Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Peru) - Peru
      o Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
      o The Lutheran Church of Cameroon - Cameroon
      o Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference - Malawi
      o Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference - Zambia
      o Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway) - Sweden and Norway
      o Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan) - Japan
      o Ukrainian Lutheran Church - Ukraine
      o Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
* Evangelical Catholic Church
* International Lutheran Council
      o China Evangelical Lutheran Church
      o Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church?Synod of France and Belgium
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Argentina
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of England
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Haiti
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Paraguay
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Republic of Chile
      o Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Denmark
      o Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod in South Africa
      o Gutnius Lutheran Church
      o Independent Evangelical?Lutheran Church
      o India Evangelical Lutheran Church
      o Japan Lutheran Church
      o Lanka Lutheran Church
      o Lutheran Church - Canada
      o Lutheran Church?Hong Kong Synod
      o Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
      o Lutheran Church in Korea
      o Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
      o Lutheran Church in the Philippines
      o Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
      o Lutheran Church of Guatemala
      o Lutheran Church of Nigeria
      o Lutheran Church of Venezuela
      o Lutheran Synod of Mexico
* Laestadian Lutheran Church
* Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
* Lutheran Church of New Zealand
* Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
* Lutheran World Federation
      o Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church
      o Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras
      o Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark)
      o Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland)
      o Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway)
      o Church of Sweden
      o Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
      o Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
      o Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil
      o Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member)
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chile
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Guyana
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Russia and Other States
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Suriname
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Venezuela
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Colombia
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of France
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
      o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
      o India Evangelical Lutheran Church
      o Japan Evangelical Lutheran Church
      o Lutheran Church in Chile
      o Lutheran Church in Great Britain
      o Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
      o Lutheran Costarican Church
      o Mexican Lutheran Church
      o Nicaraguan Lutheran Church of Faith and Hope
      o Salvadoran Lutheran Synod
      o United Evangelical Lutheran Church (Argentina)

Reformed and Presbyterian Churches

* Reformed churches
      o Canadian and American Reformed Churches
      o Calvinistic Churches,USA
      o Christian Reformed Church in North America
      o Christian Reformed Churches of Australia
      o Church of Lippe
      o Dutch Reformed Church
      o Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
      o Free Reformed Churches of North America
      o Heritage Reformed Congregations
      o Hungarian Reformed Church in America
      o Orthodox Christian Reformed Church
      o Protestant Reformed Churches in America
      o Reformed Christian Church in Croatia
      o Reformed Church in America
      o Reformed Church in Bavaria and Northwestern Germany
      o Reformed Church in Hungary
      o Reformed Church in the United States
      o Reformed Church of Alsace and Lorraine
      o Reformed Church of Japan
      o Remonstrant Brotherhood
      o United Reformed Church
      o United Reformed Churches in North America
* Presbyterian
      o Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
      o Bible Presbyterian Church
      o Church of Scotland
      o Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals
      o Cumberland Presbyterian Church
      o Evangelical Presbyterian Church
      o Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales
      o Free Church of Scotland
      o Free Church of Scotland Continuing
      o Free Presbyterian Church
      o Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
      o Korean Presbyterian Church in America
      o Orthodox Presbyterian Church
      o Presbyterian Church in America
      o Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand
      o Presbyterian Church of Australia
      o Presbyterian Church in Canada
      o Presbyterian Church of Eastern Australia
      o Presbyterian Church in Ireland
      o Presbyterian Church of Korea
      o Presbyterian Church in the Republic of Korea
      o Presbyterian Church in Taiwan
      o Presbyterian Church of Wales
      o Presbyterian Church USA
      o Presbyterian Reformed Church
      o Reformed Presbyterian Church of Australia
      o Reformed Presbyterian Church - Covenanted
      o Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
      o Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
      o United Free Church of Scotland
      o Uniting Presbyterian Church in Southern Africa
      o Westminster Presbyterian Church

United / Uniting churches

* China Christian Council
* Church of Bangladesh
* Church of Pakistan
* Church of North India
* Church of South India
* Evangelical Church in Germany
* Protestant Church in the Netherlands from 1 May 2004
* United Church of Canada
* United Church of Christ
* Uniting Church in Australia

Anabaptists

* Amish
      o Beachy Amish
      o Nebraska Amish
      o Old Order Amish
      o Swartzendruber Amish
* Hutterites
      o Bruderhof Communities
* Mennonites
      o Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
      o Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand
      o Brethren in Christ
      o Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
      o Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites)
      o Conservative Mennonite Conference
      o Evangelical Mennonite Church
      o Evangelical Mennonite Conference
      o Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
      o Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren)
      o Mennonite Brethren Churches
            + Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
            + Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
            + US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
      o Mennonite Church Canada
      o Mennonite Church in the Netherlands
      o Mennonite Church USA
      o Mennonite World Conference
      o Swiss Mennonite Conference

Brethren denominations

* Church of the United Brethren in Christ
* Plymouth Brethren
* River Brethren
      o Brethren in Christ Church
      o Old Order River Brethren
      o United Zion Church
* Schwarzenau Brethren
      o Church of the Brethren
      o Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International
      o Dunkard Brethren
      o Ephrata Cloister
      o Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
      o Old German Baptist Brethren
      o Old Order German Baptist Brethren
      o The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren)
* Social Brethren

Baptists
(All Baptist associations are congregationalist affiliations for the purpose of cooperation, in which each local church is governmentally independent)

* Alliance of Baptists
* American Baptist Association
* American Baptist Churches
* Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
* Association of Grace Baptist Churches
* Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
* Association of Regular Baptist Churches
* Baptist Bible Fellowship International
* Baptist Conference of the Philippines
* Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
* Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
* Baptist General Conference
* Baptist General Conference of Canada
* Baptist General Convention of Texas
* Baptist Missionary Association of America
* Baptist Union of Australia
* Baptist Union of Great Britain
* Baptist Union of New Zealand
* Baptist Union of Scotland
* Baptist Union of Western Canada
* Baptist World Alliance
* Bible Baptist
* Canadian Baptist Ministries
* Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
* Central Baptist Association
* Central Canada Baptist Conference
* Christian Unity Baptist Association
* Colored Primitive Baptists
* Conservative Baptist Association
* Conservative Baptist Association of America
* Conservative Baptists
* Continental Baptist Churches
* Convenci�n Nacional Bautista de Mexico
* Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
* Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
* European Baptist Convention
* European Baptist Federation
* Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
* Evangelical Free Baptist Church
* Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
* Free Will Baptist Church
* Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
* General Association of Baptists
* General Association of General Baptists
* General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
* General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
* General Six-Principle Baptists
* Global Independent Baptist Fellowship
* Grace Baptist Assembly
* Independent Baptists
* Independent Baptist Church of America
* Independent Baptist Fellowship International
* Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
* Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
* Landmark Baptist Church
* Liberty Baptist Fellowship
* Myanmar Baptist Convention
* National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
* National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
* National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
* National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
* National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
* New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
* New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
* North American Baptist Conference
* Norwegian Baptist Union
* Old Baptist Union
* Old Regular Baptists
* Old Time Missionary Baptists
* Primitive Baptists
* Progressive Baptists
* Progressive National Baptist Convention
* Reformed Baptists
* Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
* Regular Baptists
* Separate Baptists
* Separate Baptists in Christ
* Seventh Day Baptists
* Southeast Conservative Baptists
* Southern Baptist Convention
* Southern Baptists of Texas
* Sovereign Grace Baptists
* Strict Baptists
* Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
* Union D'Eglises Baptistes Francaises Au Canada
* United American Free Will Baptist Church
* United American Free Will Baptist Conference
* United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
* United Baptists
* United Free Will Baptist
* Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
* World Baptist Alliance
* World Baptist Fellowship
* See also: List of Baptist sub-denominations

Friends (also called Quakers)

* Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
* United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (Shakers)

Methodists

* African Methodist Episcopal Church
* African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
* Bible Methodist Church
* British Methodist Episcopal Church
* Chinese Methodist Church
* Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
* Congregational Methodist Church
* Church of the Nazarene
* Evangelical Church
* Evangelical Methodist Church
* Free Methodist Church
* Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches
* Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc.
* Independent Methodist Church
* Korean Methodist Church
* Methodist Church, Hong Kong
* Methodist Church in Ireland
* Methodist Church in Singapore
* Methodist Church of Great Britain
* Methodist Church of New Zealand
* Methodist Church of South Africa
* Methodist Church of Sri Lanka
* Methodist Church of Mexico Iglesia Metodista de M�xico, Sitio Oficial
* Primitive Methodist Church
* Salvation Army
* United Methodist Church
* Wesleyan Church
* Wesleyan Reform Union

Pietists & Holiness

* Apostolic Christian Church
* Bible Fellowship Church
* Christian & Missionary Alliance
* Christian's Missionary Church
* Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A.
* Church of God (Anderson)
* Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
* Church of God (Holiness)
* Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
* Evangelical Covenant Church
* Missionary Church
* United Christian Church

Pentecostalism

* Abundant Life Worship Centers
* Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
* Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
* Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada
* Apostolic Faith Church
* Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
* Assemblies of God
* Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
* Calvary Holiness Association
* Christian City Churches
* Christ Gospel Churches International
* Christian Church of North America
* Christian Congregation of Brazil
* Christian Revival Crusade
* Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee)
* Church of God (Chattanooga)
* Church of God (Cleveland)
* Church of God (Huntsville, Alabama)
* Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
* Church of God for All Nations
* Church of God by Faith
* Church of God, House of Prayer
* Church of God in Christ
* Church of God Mountain Assembly
* Church of God of Prophecy
* Church of God with Signs Following
* Church of God of the Union Assembly
* Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
* Church of the Little Children of Jesus Christ
* Congregational Holiness Church
* CRC Churches International
* Destiny Church International
* Elim Fellowship
* Elim Pentecostal Church
* Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
* God is Love Pentecostal Church
* Holiness Baptist Association
* Independent Assemblies of God, International
* International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
* International Pentecostal Church of Christ
* International Pentecostal Holiness Church
* New Life Churches
* Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches)
* Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
* Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
* Pentecostal Church of God
* Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
* Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches of North America
* Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith
* Pentecostal World Conference
* Potter's House Christian Fellowship
* Redeemed Christian Church of God
* The Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
* The Church of God for All Nations
* The Fellowship (FGFCMI)
* United Gospel Tabernacles
* United Holy Church of America
* United Pentecostal Churches of Christ
* United Pentecostal Church International

African Independent Churches

* Church of the Lord
* Kimbanguist Church
* Zion Christian Church

Messianic Judaism

* Chosen People Ministries
* Jews for Jesus
* Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

Other movement churches

* Calvary Chapel
* Church of Christ, Instrumental (aka Kelleyites)
* Children of God
* City Harvest Church
* Evangelical Covenant Church of America ("Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant")
* Evangelical Free Church of America
* Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches
* Great Commission Association
* New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International)
* Metropolitan Community Churches
* Schwenkfelder Church
* Two by Two (aka The Truth, The Way, Cooneyites) other movement
* United Apostolic Church
* Vineyard Movement

Anglicans/Episcopal Church

* Anglican Communion
      o Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia
      o Anglican Church of Australia
      o Anglican Church of Canada
      o Anglican Church of Kenya
      o Anglican Church of Korea
      o Anglican Church of Papua New Guinea
      o Church in Wales
      o Church of England
      o Church of Ireland
      o Church of Nigeria
      o Church of Uganda
      o Church of the Province of Burundi
      o Church of the Province of Central Africa
      o Church of the Province of Melanesia
      o Church of the Province of Myanmar
      o Church of the Province of Rwanda
      o Church of the Province of South East Asia
      o Church of the Province of Southern Africa
      o Church of the Province of Tanzania
      o Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean
      o Church of the Province of the West Indies
      o Church of the Province of West Africa
      o Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East
      o Episcopal Church in the United States of America
      o Episcopal Church of Cuba
      o Episcopal Church of the Sudan
      o Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui
      o Iglesia Anglicana de la Region Central America
      o Iglesia Anglicana de M�xico
      o Iglesia Anglicana del Cono Sud de las Americas
      o Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil
      o Kerala Christian Assembly (Canada) http://www.keralachristian.com
      o Lusitanian Church of Portugal
      o Nippon Sei Ko Kai (Japan)
      o Philippine Episcopal Church
      o Scottish Episcopal Church
      o Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church
* Independent Anglican and Continuing Anglican Movement Churches
      o African Orthodox Church
      o African Anglican Orthodox Church Worldwide
      o American Anglican Church
      o Anglican Catholic Church
      o Anglican Church in America
      o Anglican Church International Communion
      o Anglican Mission in America
      o Anglican Orthodox Church
      o Anglican Province of America
      o Anglican Province of Christ the King
      o Christian Episcopal Church
      o Church of England (Continuing)
      o Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
      o Episcopal Missionary Church
      o Free Church of England
      o Free Protestant Episcopal Church
      o Reformed Episcopal Church
      o Southern Episcopal Church
      o United Episcopal Church

Swedenborgianism
Episcopal

* General Church of the New Jerusalem
* The Lord's New Church which is Nova Hierosolyma

Congregational

* General Conference of the New Church (England)
* Swedenborgian Church of North America formerly General Convention of the New Jerusalem (USA)
* The New Church in Australia

Restorationism
Restoration Movement (Stone-Campbell)

* Disciples of Christ
* Christian Church
* Churches of Christ
* Churches of Christ in Australia
* International Churches of Christ (Boston Movement)

Millerites and Related Groups

* Sunday Adventists
      o Advent Christian Church
      o Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
      o Church of the Blessed Hope (aka Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith)
      o Primitive Advent Christian Church
* Seventh Day Adventists
      o Branch Davidians
      o Branch Seventh Day Adventists
      o Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church
      o Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist Association
      o General Association of Davidian Seventh-Day Adventists
      o People's Christian Church
      o Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement
      o Seventh-day Adventist General Conference (Seventh-day Adventist Church)
      o The Registry
* Church of God Adventists
      o Assembly of God in Christ Jesus
      o Associated Churches, Inc.
      o Associates for Scriptural Knowledge
      o Biblical Church of God
      o Body of Christ Church of God
      o Church of God (Anadarko)
      o Church of God (Jesus Christ the Head) (UNICO)
      o Church of God (O'Brien)
      o Church of God (Philadelphia Era)
      o Church of God (Sabbatarian)
      o Church of God (Seventh Day, Salem, West Virginia)
      o Church of God Evangelical Association
      o Church of God's Truth
      o Church of the Great God
      o Congregation of God, Seventh Day
      o Congregation of God
      o Congregation of Yah
      o Foundation for Biblical Research
      o Foundation of Life Fellowship
      o General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day)
      o General Council of the Churches of God
      o Global Church of God
      o Harmony of Life Fellowship
      o International Church of God (ICG)
      o Philadelphia Church of God
      o Restoration Church of God
      o Seventh-Day Church of God
      o The Eternal Church of God
      o The Pure Truth
      o Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God)
      o Twentieth Century Church of God (Pennsylvania)
      o Twentieth Century Church of God
      o United Biblical Church of God
      o United Church of God
      o United Seventh-Day Brethren
      o Universal Church of God
      o World Insight International
      o Worldwide Church of God
* Bible Student Groups
      o Back to the Bible Way
      o Christian Believers Conference
      o Christian Bible Students Association
      o Christian Millenial Fellowship
      o Christian Prophets of Jehovah
      o Dawn Bible Students Association
      o Epiphany Bible Students Association
      o Independent Bible Students
      o Laodicean Home Missionary Movement
      o Layman's Home Missionary Movement
      o Lord Our Righteousness (Life Support)
      o Pastoral Bible Institute
      o Philanthropic Assembly
* Sacred Name Groups
      o Assemblies of YHWHHOSHUA
      o Assemblies of Yah
      o Assemblies of Yahvah
      o Assemblies of Yahweh (Easton Rapids, Michigan)
      o Assemblies of Yahweh
      o Assemblies of the Called Out Ones of Yah
      o Bible Study Association
      o Church of God (Jerusalem)
      o House of Yahweh (Abilene, Texas)
      o House of Yahweh (Odessa, Texas)
      o Missionary Dispensary Bible Research
      o New Life Fellowship
      o Scripture Research Association
      o Workers Together with Elohim
      o Yahweh's Assembly of Messiah
* Anglo-Israelism
      o Anglo-Saxon Federation of America
      o British-Israel-World Federation (Canada), Inc.
      o Calvary Fellowship, Inc.
      o Christian Identity and other white separatist/supremacist groups
            + Christian Conservative Churches of America
            + Church of Jesus Christ-Christian (Aryan Nations)
            + Kingdom Identity Ministries
            + LaPorte Church of Christ
      o Christian Research
      o Church of Israel
      o Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord
      o Evangelical Church of Christ / Commonwealth Covenant Church (New Zealand)
      o House of Prayer for All People
      o Ministry of Christ Church
      o National Association of Kingdom Evangelicals
      o New Christian Crusade Church
      o Prophetic Herald Ministry
      o Remnant of Israel
      o Tabernacle of the Phineas Priesthood
* Southcottites
      o Israelite House of David
      o Israelite House of David as Reorganized by Mary Purnell
      o Yahweh's New Covenant Assembly
* Other Adventists
      o Christadelphians
      o Christian Nations - Eagle Warriors
      o Church of God (Reinersten)
      o Kingdom of God on Earth Within Man
      o Remnant Church
      o Restored Israel of Yahweh
      o Shiloh True Light Church of Christ
      o Star of Truth Foundation
      o True Church

Mormonism/Latter Day Saints

* Aaronic Order
* Church of Christ (Bickertonite)
* Church of Christ (Cutlerite)
* Church of Christ (Temple Lot)
* Church of Christ with the Elijah Message
* Church of Jesus Christ in Zion
* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints*
* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
* Community of Christ**
* Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
* New Covenant Church of God
* Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
* Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
* Restored Church of Jesus Christ
* Sons Aumen Israel
* True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days

* The largest of these churches, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, sometimes called the LDS Church; commonly, but incorrectly called the Mormon Church

** formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or RLDS Church

Gnosticism

* Ecclesia Gnostica
* Bogomils (extinct)
* Borborites (extinct)
* Carpocratians (extinct)
* Cathars (extinct)
* Manichaeism (extinct)

Nontrinitarian

* Arians (extinct as a modern and distinct group)
* Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship *
* Church of Christ, Scientist
* Unification Church
* Iglesia ni Cristo
* Christadelphians
* Magi Network *
* Makuya
* Doukhobors
* Molokan
* Jehovah's Witnesses
* United Pentecostal Church International
* Branhamism
* Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith

* Independent Affiliate of the Unitarian Universalist Association

New Thought churches

* Divine Science
* Religious Science
* Unity Church
32

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Why? Because I’m a Catholic, and I used to be a loyal one. And this is the shit that I find out when I get older…[/quote]

I actually have an idea of how you feel – not that I am a Catholic myself, but considering that a great part of my extended family is from overwhelmingly Catholic countries – Portugal, Spain, Brazil – I have seen how many of them were put off by much of the Catholic Church’s actions and doctrine, and make similar comments to yours.

In all fairness, one has to say one thing: in spite of everything, Pope John Paul II was actually as good as they come, and I truly believe his heart was in the right place; he didn’t bring the Catholic church completely out of the darkness, but he did more in that direction than quite possibly all the Popes before him combined…

I actually kinda of miss him… He was a good leader, and an inspiration to many.

33

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? This is an honest question. It would seem that very few people are converted later in life. I have been a Christian for a long time, and I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian. I have a few ideas for why people don?t believe, but I would prefer to hear it before I state something that would corrupt my findings. Again, I am looking for ?point blank? reasons for not believing. Bullet statements would work best.

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

…for me it’s not about which faith or religion, it’s about believing itself that does not rock my boat. Believing something to be true is in fact telling yourself a lie of which you need to convince yourself over and over again that it is true. I have no interest in doing that…

34

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Why? Because I’m a Catholic, and I used to be a loyal one. And this is the shit that I find out when I get older…[/quote]

Catholicism IS NOT Christianity!

True Christianity follows Christ and is in complete accord with the Bible.

  1. Purgatory
  2. Calling men “priests”
  3. The mass
  4. The bread and wine is actually Christ’s body and blood.
  5. Praying to “saints”
  6. Worship of Mary
  7. The rosary
  8. Mary’s “immaculate conception.”
  9. The sacraments

These are just some of the pillars of the Catholic religion that are not Biblical, and in my cases, they are UNBIBLICAL!

35

[quote]orion wrote:
A) Much to many Gods and Holy Books.

That is not even all of them, knock yourself out.

B) Kants “Critique of pure reason”

Once you start to speculate without the need for empirical proof, everything and its opposite can be “proven”.

He was famous, tough deeply religious, for destroying every “proof” for God?s existence he could lay his hands on.

C) If God really existed AND he was exactly the way some Christians describe him, he is nothing but a sexually repressed all mighty schoolyard bully and I will definitely not bow to him.

Hail Lucifer, the light-bringer, for at least trying to stand up to his bullshit.[/quote]

Don’t you mean ‘Heil Lucifer’?

Or is it ‘Heil Schickelgruber’?

:slight_smile:
HH

36

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? This is an honest question. It would seem that very few people are converted later in life. I have been a Christian for a long time, and I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian. I have a few ideas for why people don?t believe, but I would prefer to hear it before I state something that would corrupt my findings. Again, I am looking for ?point blank? reasons for not believing. Bullet statements would work best.

Me Solomon Grundy

…for me it’s not about which faith or religion, it’s about believing itself that does not rock my boat. Believing something to be true is in fact telling yourself a lie of which you need to convince yourself over and over again that it is true. I have no interest in doing that…[/quote]

Can you explain this statement to me?

I’m not sure I follow.

Me Solomon Grundy

37

SG,

Now that you’ve gotten several responses, why do you ask? Where are you coming from?

38

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? This is an honest question. It would seem that very few people are converted later in life. I have been a Christian for a long time, and I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian. I have a few ideas for why people don?t believe, but I would prefer to hear it before I state something that would corrupt my findings. Again, I am looking for ?point blank? reasons for not believing. Bullet statements would work best.

Me Solomon Grundy

…for me it’s not about which faith or religion, it’s about believing itself that does not rock my boat. Believing something to be true is in fact telling yourself a lie of which you need to convince yourself over and over again that it is true. I have no interest in doing that…

Can you explain this statement to me?

Believing something to be true is in fact telling yourself a lie of which you need to convince yourself over and over again that it is true.

I’m not sure I follow.

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

…what is it you don’t understand? Believing is accepting something as true in the absence of certainty. That has always struck me as dishonest. Why would i want to believe without ever knowing it is actually the truth?

…this is why i don’t follow religion, or entertain religious beliefs…

39

[quote]orion wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
A) Much to many Gods and Holy Books.

That is not even all of them, knock yourself out.

B) Kants “Critique of pure reason”

Once you start to speculate without the need for empirical proof, everything and its opposite can be “proven”.

He was famous, tough deeply religious, for destroying every “proof” for God?s existence he could lay his hands on.

Dude, you need to think a little deeper than that. Please look up empirical. In the scientific realm you are basically saying that you need empirical proof, yet “empirical” means coming from observation, not controlled scientific studies.

Empirical = observation of things, items, people, etc in their own natural environment to support or develop scientific hypotheses

Controlled research = an observation of a controlled environment to support or develop scientific hypotheses

So the fact would be that God can be proven empirically, meaning based on observation of how peoples lives are changed as a result. But, God cannot be proven in controlled scientific research.

All that would “prove” is, that the belief in a higher being can change peoples lifes, for better or worse.

That does not verify the existence of said higher being.[/quote]

And yet the belief in other things does not change peoples lives for the better. So why does belief in God change peoples lives for the better and a belief in Elvis still being alive not?

Belief is not the magic, it’s what it is directed at is where the proof lives.

You should also know that there is no controlled research that proves the theory of evolution either, it is all empirical. So both evolution and God can be supported by empirical evidence, not controlled research.

So has your faith in evolution changed your life for the better?

40

Great thread.

Makkun, your post was beautiful. I salute your journey, which is spiritual in nature, whether others approve of it or not. I believe it takes great courage to follow your own path while others are telling you that if you are true to yourself and your journey, you are going to hell. In fact, I think it takes more courage to do that than to follow the safe path of the dominant religion in whatever society one was born into.