Homosexuality and the Church

Perhaps believers, if they are honest at least, would do well to consider this article and what it means for their convictions against homosexuality. I include those opposed to same sex relationships in this group, irrespective of whether they welcome gays into their congregation, “as long as they don’t act on it”.

I realize many believers (Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.) don’t fall into this camp. As a believer committed
to equality for gays, I would invite you to share why you believe as you do.

Not that I expect anyone to change their opinion, but honestly ask
yourself how consistently you are applying the teachings of the bible.
Why do you wink at some things like divorce, hair length, women
speaking in church, celibacy, etc. while focusing your hatred toward
homosexuality? Why not at least be consistent in what you choose to
believe and enforce?

[quote]June 21st, 2011
10:10 AM ET

My Take: Bible condemns a lot, so why focus on homosexuality?
Editor’s Note: Jonathan Dudley is the author of Broken Words: The
Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics.

By Jonathan Dudley, Special to CNN

Growing up in the evangelical community, I learned the Bibleâ??s stance
on homosexuality is clear-cut. God condemns it, I was taught, and
those who disagree just havenâ??t read their Bibles closely enough.

Having recently graduated from Yale Divinity School, I can say that my
childhood community’s approach to gay rights-though well
intentioned-is riddled with self-serving double standards.

I donâ??t doubt that the one New Testament author who wrote on the
subject of male-male intercourse thought it a sin. In Romans 1, the
only passage in the Bible where a reason is explicitly given for
opposing same-sex relations, the Apostle Paul calls them “unnatural.”

Problem is, Paul’s only other moral argument from nature is the
following: “Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long
hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her
glory?” (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).

Few Christians would answer that question with a “yes.”

In short, Paul objects to two things as unnatural: one is male-male
sex and the other is long hair on men and short hair on women. The
community opposed to gay marriage takes one condemnation as timeless
and universal and the other as culturally relative.

I also donâ??t doubt that those who advocate gay marriage are advocating
a revision of the Christian tradition.

But the community opposed to gay marriage has itself revised the
Christian tradition in a host of ways. For the first 1500 years of
Christianity, for example, marriage was deemed morally inferior to
celibacy. When a theologian named Jovinian challenged that hierarchy
in 390 A.D. â?? merely by suggesting that marriage and celibacy might be
equally worthwhile endeavors â?? he was deemed a heretic and
excommunicated from the church.

How does that sit with “family values” activism today?

Yale New Testament professor Dale B. Martin has noted that todayâ??s
“pro-family” activism, despite its pretense to be representing
traditional Christian values, would have been considered “heresy” for
most of the church’s history.

The community opposed to gay marriage has also departed from the
Christian tradition on another issue at the heart of its social
agenda: abortion.

Unbeknownst to most lay Christians, the vast majority of Christian
theologians and saints throughout history have not believed life
begins at conception.

Although he admitted some uncertainty on the matter, the hugely
influential 4th and 5th century Christian thinker Saint Augustine
wrote, “it could not be said that there was a living soul in [a] body”
if it is “not yet endowed with senses.”

Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic saint and a giant of mediaeval theology,
argued: “before the body has organs in any way whatever, it cannot be
receptive of the soul.”

American evangelicals, meanwhile, widely opposed the idea that life
begins at conception until the 1970s, with some even advocating looser
abortion laws based on their reading of the Bible before then.

It won’t do to oppose gay marriage because it’s not traditional while
advocating other positions that are not traditional.

And then there’s the topic of divorce. Although there is only one
uncontested reference to same-sex relations in the New Testament,
divorce is condemned throughout, both by Jesus and Paul. To quote
Jesus from the Gospel of Mark: “Whoever divorces his wife and marries
another commits adultery.”

A possible exception is made only for unfaithfulness.

The community most opposed to gay marriage usually reads these
condemnations very leniently. A 2007 issue of Christianity Today, for
example, featured a story on its cover about divorce that concluded
that Christians should permit divorce for “adultery,” “emotional and
physical neglect” and “abandonment and abuse.”

The author emphasizes how impractical it would be to apply a strict
interpretation of Jesus on this matter: “It is difficult to believe
the Bible can be as impractical as this interpretation implies.”

Indeed it is.

On the other hand, itâ??s not at all difficult for a community of
Christian leaders, who are almost exclusively white, heterosexual men,
to advocate interpretations that can be very impractical for a
historically oppressed minority to which they do not belong -
homosexuals.

Whether the topic is hair length, celibacy, when life begins, or
divorce, time and again, the leaders most opposed to gay marriage have
demonstrated an incredible willingness to consider nuances and
complicating considerations when their own interests are at stake.

Since graduating from seminary, I no longer identify with the
evangelical community of my youth. The community gave me many fond
memories and sound values but it also taught me to take the very human
perspectives of its leaders and attribute them to God.

So let’s stop the charade and be honest.

Opponents of gay marriage aren’t defending the Bibleâ??s values. They’re
using the Bible to defend their own.[/quote]

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right?

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

It’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right.

Edit: So about 90% of my post didn’t make it… do the mods cut contributions?

forlife,

Most on this forum already know that it’s difficult for you to post even one word unless it has something to do with promoting homosexuality, but this is even silly for you.

Most know the difference between doctrinal teachings and trends of the day.

Fortunately, you are so over the top that you remain entertaining so I hope you stick around.

:slight_smile:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

According to the Bible Christians profess to believe, it’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right. There is a difference in accepting imperfect (all) people and accepting their sins is there not? Jesus forgives all but the individual still strives to live a godly life as defined by the Bible? How is a church, the harbringer of Christian knowledge, doing any favors by amending the Bible on it’s own authority?

As far as I know, gays are accepted in churches, if they don’t like what the religion has to say about their sexuality and lifestyle, they don’t have to go. Philanderers, adulterers, alcoholics…“tax collectors”… are all welcome in church. And then they learn the “Truth”, aka, the Bible. They can accept it or rebel against it but they can’t change it.
[/quote]

I’m not sure you’re understanding the point of the article. Maybe this will help:

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting divorce is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits divorce.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting men wearing their hair long is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits men wearing their hair long.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepts women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered.

The problem I have with a Christian church promoting marriage over celibacy is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, promotes celibacy over marriage.

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

According to the Bible Christians profess to believe, it’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right. There is a difference in accepting imperfect (all) people and accepting their sins is there not? Jesus forgives all but the individual still strives to live a godly life as defined by the Bible? How is a church, the harbringer of Christian knowledge, doing any favors by amending the Bible on it’s own authority?

As far as I know, gays are accepted in churches, if they don’t like what the religion has to say about their sexuality and lifestyle, they don’t have to go. Philanderers, adulterers, alcoholics…“tax collectors”… are all welcome in church. And then they learn the “Truth”, aka, the Bible. They can accept it or rebel against it but they can’t change it.
[/quote]

I’m not sure you’re understanding the point of the article. Maybe this will help:

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting divorce is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits divorce.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting men wearing their hair long is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits men wearing their hair long.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepts women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered.

The problem I have with a Christian church promoting marriage over celibacy is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, promotes celibacy over marriage.[/quote]

I do understand and I have no qualms with your most recent post, except that the Bible doesn’t promote celibacy over marriage. Paul stated his own personal opinion, there is no doctrinal belief putting one over the other.

But your post only elaborates on my point. Maybe I can make it more simple for you.

The Bible lists a set of beliefs and rules that constitue the very fabric of the Christian religion. If you are editing, ignoring or intentionally ignoring the rules and beliefs, you are not truly practicing Christianity. A Church preaching that homosexuality is ok and acceptable is not a Christian church, even if they use other elements of the Bible in it’s sermons and tenents.

A church preaching divorce, murder, slander et cetera as acceptable behaviours is not a Christian church.

A church that accepts gay, divorced, murderous members and loves them for who they are, but preaches the Bible as it is, is a Christian church.

Homosexuality is explicitly a sin in the Bible.

Accept the sinner, not the sin.

Sins are why we have church, if we didn’t sin, we wouldn’t need it. Kicking out someone for sinning is stupid.

The difference with homosexuality is that many want the church to condone it. They don’t want churches to tell them it’s a sin. In that case, the person is denying the teachings of the church, and should just leave. (this would mean people being openly gay and being offended when told it?s wrong and wanting the church to “accept them for who they are”).

All that said, it is no inherently different than any other sin. If I were an open alcoholic and wanted the church to accept me as such and not tell me drunkenness is a sin, I’d expect to be told to get bent too.

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

According to the Bible Christians profess to believe, it’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right. There is a difference in accepting imperfect (all) people and accepting their sins is there not? Jesus forgives all but the individual still strives to live a godly life as defined by the Bible? How is a church, the harbringer of Christian knowledge, doing any favors by amending the Bible on it’s own authority?

As far as I know, gays are accepted in churches, if they don’t like what the religion has to say about their sexuality and lifestyle, they don’t have to go. Philanderers, adulterers, alcoholics…“tax collectors”… are all welcome in church. And then they learn the “Truth”, aka, the Bible. They can accept it or rebel against it but they can’t change it.
[/quote]

I’m not sure you’re understanding the point of the article. Maybe this will help:

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting divorce is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits divorce.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting men wearing their hair long is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits men wearing their hair long.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepts women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered.

The problem I have with a Christian church promoting marriage over celibacy is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, promotes celibacy over marriage.[/quote]

Ok, you’re not Christian. Any fresh news?

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

I just modded my phone.

Its better now.

Kudos for Mormons who have real live prophets or some such and can have ongoing revelations that just so happen to streamline the whole thing a little bit.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

According to the Bible Christians profess to believe, it’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right. There is a difference in accepting imperfect (all) people and accepting their sins is there not? Jesus forgives all but the individual still strives to live a godly life as defined by the Bible? How is a church, the harbringer of Christian knowledge, doing any favors by amending the Bible on it’s own authority?

As far as I know, gays are accepted in churches, if they don’t like what the religion has to say about their sexuality and lifestyle, they don’t have to go. Philanderers, adulterers, alcoholics…“tax collectors”… are all welcome in church. And then they learn the “Truth”, aka, the Bible. They can accept it or rebel against it but they can’t change it.
[/quote]

I’m not sure you’re understanding the point of the article. Maybe this will help:

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting divorce is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits divorce.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting men wearing their hair long is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits men wearing their hair long.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepts women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered.

The problem I have with a Christian church promoting marriage over celibacy is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, promotes celibacy over marriage.[/quote]

I do understand and I have no qualms with your most recent post, except that the Bible doesn’t promote celibacy over marriage. Paul stated his own personal opinion, there is no doctrinal belief putting one over the other.

But your post only elaborates on my point. Maybe I can make it more simple for you.

The Bible lists a set of beliefs and rules that constitue the very fabric of the Christian religion. If you are editing, ignoring or intentionally ignoring the rules and beliefs, you are not truly practicing Christianity. A Church preaching that homosexuality is ok and acceptable is not a Christian church, even if they use other elements of the Bible in it’s sermons and tenents.

A church preaching divorce, murder, slander et cetera as acceptable behaviours is not a Christian church.

A church that accepts gay, divorced, murderous members and loves them for who they are, but preaches the Bible as it is, is a Christian church.
[/quote]

Why is it Paul’s opinion when he discusses the superiority of celibacy, but it is not Paul’s opinion when he is discussing homosexuality?

And since you didn’t mention the other biblical condemnations, I assume you believe a truly Christian church wouldn’t allow divorce, requires men to wear their hair short, requires women to have their heads covered, and disallows them from speaking in church?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Homosexuality is explicitly a sin in the Bible.

Accept the sinner, not the sin.

Sins are why we have church, if we didn’t sin, we wouldn’t need it. Kicking out someone for sinning is stupid.

The difference with homosexuality is that many want the church to condone it. They don’t want churches to tell them it’s a sin. In that case, the person is denying the teachings of the church, and should just leave. (this would mean people being openly gay and being offended when told it?s wrong and wanting the church to “accept them for who they are”).

All that said, it is no inherently different than any other sin. If I were an open alcoholic and wanted the church to accept me as such and not tell me drunkenness is a sin, I’d expect to be told to get bent too.
[/quote]

And your opinion on other biblical condemnations against divorce, women speaking in church, etc.?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

I just modded my phone.

Its better now.

Kudos for Mormons who have real live prophets or some such and can have ongoing revelations that just so happen to streamline the whole thing a little bit.

[/quote]

It’s genius, really. Any doctrinal reversals, like polygamy or blacks having the priesthood, are easily explained as “further light and knowledge from the Lord.”

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Homosexuality is explicitly a sin in the Bible.

Accept the sinner, not the sin.

Sins are why we have church, if we didn’t sin, we wouldn’t need it. Kicking out someone for sinning is stupid.

The difference with homosexuality is that many want the church to condone it. They don’t want churches to tell them it’s a sin. In that case, the person is denying the teachings of the church, and should just leave. (this would mean people being openly gay and being offended when told it?s wrong and wanting the church to “accept them for who they are”).

All that said, it is no inherently different than any other sin. If I were an open alcoholic and wanted the church to accept me as such and not tell me drunkenness is a sin, I’d expect to be told to get bent too.
[/quote]

And your opinion on other biblical condemnations against divorce, women speaking in church, etc.?
[/quote]

Women clearly can speak in the church.

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

According to the Bible Christians profess to believe, it’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right. There is a difference in accepting imperfect (all) people and accepting their sins is there not? Jesus forgives all but the individual still strives to live a godly life as defined by the Bible? How is a church, the harbringer of Christian knowledge, doing any favors by amending the Bible on it’s own authority?

As far as I know, gays are accepted in churches, if they don’t like what the religion has to say about their sexuality and lifestyle, they don’t have to go. Philanderers, adulterers, alcoholics…“tax collectors”… are all welcome in church. And then they learn the “Truth”, aka, the Bible. They can accept it or rebel against it but they can’t change it.
[/quote]

I’m not sure you’re understanding the point of the article. Maybe this will help:

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting divorce is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits divorce.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting men wearing their hair long is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits men wearing their hair long.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepts women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered.

The problem I have with a Christian church promoting marriage over celibacy is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, promotes celibacy over marriage.[/quote]

I do understand and I have no qualms with your most recent post, except that the Bible doesn’t promote celibacy over marriage. Paul stated his own personal opinion, there is no doctrinal belief putting one over the other.

But your post only elaborates on my point. Maybe I can make it more simple for you.

The Bible lists a set of beliefs and rules that constitue the very fabric of the Christian religion. If you are editing, ignoring or intentionally ignoring the rules and beliefs, you are not truly practicing Christianity. A Church preaching that homosexuality is ok and acceptable is not a Christian church, even if they use other elements of the Bible in it’s sermons and tenents.

A church preaching divorce, murder, slander et cetera as acceptable behaviours is not a Christian church.

A church that accepts gay, divorced, murderous members and loves them for who they are, but preaches the Bible as it is, is a Christian church.
[/quote]

Why is it Paul’s opinion when he discusses the superiority of celibacy, but it is not Paul’s opinion when he is discussing homosexuality?

And since you didn’t mention the other biblical condemnations, I assume you believe a truly Christian church wouldn’t allow divorce, requires men to wear their hair short, requires women to have their heads covered, and disallows them from speaking in church?[/quote]

Keep it in context:

"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to
marry.

2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own
wife, and each woman her own husband.

7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from
God; one has this gift, another has that.

8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay
unmarried, as I am.

9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is
better to marry than to burn with passion."

Paul clearly states married life and celibacy are both acceptable life choices.

And the gay:

LEV 18:22 “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
detestable.”

No option here.

LEV 20:13 “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.”

Or here

And Paul on gay, murder, divorce et cetera:

1CO 6:9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of
God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers
will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were
sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by
the Spirit of our God.

1TI 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers
and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those
who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-
-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"

Black and white. And Paul mentions that Christianity is open to all, but changing the doctrine is not.

I took your tangent but the point to your OP is that Christianity is what it is as defined by the Bible. Take it or leave it.

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

According to the Bible Christians profess to believe, it’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right. There is a difference in accepting imperfect (all) people and accepting their sins is there not? Jesus forgives all but the individual still strives to live a godly life as defined by the Bible? How is a church, the harbringer of Christian knowledge, doing any favors by amending the Bible on it’s own authority?

As far as I know, gays are accepted in churches, if they don’t like what the religion has to say about their sexuality and lifestyle, they don’t have to go. Philanderers, adulterers, alcoholics…“tax collectors”… are all welcome in church. And then they learn the “Truth”, aka, the Bible. They can accept it or rebel against it but they can’t change it.
[/quote]

I’m not sure you’re understanding the point of the article. Maybe this will help:

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting divorce is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits divorce.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting men wearing their hair long is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits men wearing their hair long.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepts women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered.

The problem I have with a Christian church promoting marriage over celibacy is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, promotes celibacy over marriage.[/quote]

I do understand and I have no qualms with your most recent post, except that the Bible doesn’t promote celibacy over marriage. Paul stated his own personal opinion, there is no doctrinal belief putting one over the other.

But your post only elaborates on my point. Maybe I can make it more simple for you.

The Bible lists a set of beliefs and rules that constitue the very fabric of the Christian religion. If you are editing, ignoring or intentionally ignoring the rules and beliefs, you are not truly practicing Christianity. A Church preaching that homosexuality is ok and acceptable is not a Christian church, even if they use other elements of the Bible in it’s sermons and tenents.

A church preaching divorce, murder, slander et cetera as acceptable behaviours is not a Christian church.

A church that accepts gay, divorced, murderous members and loves them for who they are, but preaches the Bible as it is, is a Christian church.
[/quote]

Why is it Paul’s opinion when he discusses the superiority of celibacy, but it is not Paul’s opinion when he is discussing homosexuality?

And since you didn’t mention the other biblical condemnations, I assume you believe a truly Christian church wouldn’t allow divorce, requires men to wear their hair short, requires women to have their heads covered, and disallows them from speaking in church?[/quote]

Just as another poster mentioned, a Christian church accepts the sinner, not the sin. For all sins, not just homosexuality. I did address that. 1 million wrongs don’t make a right, I will say it again.

Gays, long headed fellows, divorcees et cetera are all accepted in church. That doesn’t mean the church suggests people get divorced grow their hair out and engage in gay sex. If it did, would it be preaching a Christian message?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Homosexuality is explicitly a sin in the Bible.

Accept the sinner, not the sin.

Sins are why we have church, if we didn’t sin, we wouldn’t need it. Kicking out someone for sinning is stupid.

The difference with homosexuality is that many want the church to condone it. They don’t want churches to tell them it’s a sin. In that case, the person is denying the teachings of the church, and should just leave. (this would mean people being openly gay and being offended when told it?s wrong and wanting the church to “accept them for who they are”).

All that said, it is no inherently different than any other sin. If I were an open alcoholic and wanted the church to accept me as such and not tell me drunkenness is a sin, I’d expect to be told to get bent too.
[/quote]

And your opinion on other biblical condemnations against divorce, women speaking in church, etc.?
[/quote]

Women clearly can speak in the church. [/quote]

Why is it ok to ignore Paul’s condemnation of women speaking in the church, while accepting his condemnation of homosexuality as valid?

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Homosexuality is explicitly a sin in the Bible.

Accept the sinner, not the sin.

Sins are why we have church, if we didn’t sin, we wouldn’t need it. Kicking out someone for sinning is stupid.

The difference with homosexuality is that many want the church to condone it. They don’t want churches to tell them it’s a sin. In that case, the person is denying the teachings of the church, and should just leave. (this would mean people being openly gay and being offended when told it?s wrong and wanting the church to “accept them for who they are”).

All that said, it is no inherently different than any other sin. If I were an open alcoholic and wanted the church to accept me as such and not tell me drunkenness is a sin, I’d expect to be told to get bent too.
[/quote]

And your opinion on other biblical condemnations against divorce, women speaking in church, etc.?
[/quote]

Women clearly can speak in the church. [/quote]

Why is it ok to ignore Paul’s condemnation of women speaking in the church, while accepting his condemnation of homosexuality as valid?[/quote]

I’m not. He talks about maintaining the family structure while in church and obeying the “good manners” of the time. Women are allowed to prophesy/speak in tongues ect.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
The problem I have with a Christian church accepting homosexuality is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits homosexuality.

It’s pretty black and white. Multiple verses clearly prohibit homosexual behaviour.

Accepting homosexuality blatantly defies Christianity. You are left with a congregation worshipping a modified religion. It is no longer Christianity. It’s your right to worship as you please of course, and I am no saint, I don’t even go to church, but you are not following the tenants of the religion once you willingly choose to break it’s rules.

It’s my understanding sin is a mistake a Christian actively works to oppose where as a blatant disregard for the Bible is just defiance.

This doesn’t mean churches shouldn’t welcome all people as members, I believe the Sermon on the Mount mentioned this, but you can’t be half in and half out. Isn’t there a vs. about being luke warm?

If you play football and ignore the line of scrimmage, and the NFL allows you to do so, you really aren’t playig football any more, right? [/quote]

Did you read the article?

Why is it ok to ignore biblical condemnations of divorce, men with long hair, women speaking in church, etc. as cultural artifacts, while obsessing about a tiny number of passages on homosexuality, none of which were even uttered by Jesus?[/quote]

According to the Bible Christians profess to believe, it’s not ok. But a million wrongs don’t make a right. There is a difference in accepting imperfect (all) people and accepting their sins is there not? Jesus forgives all but the individual still strives to live a godly life as defined by the Bible? How is a church, the harbringer of Christian knowledge, doing any favors by amending the Bible on it’s own authority?

As far as I know, gays are accepted in churches, if they don’t like what the religion has to say about their sexuality and lifestyle, they don’t have to go. Philanderers, adulterers, alcoholics…“tax collectors”… are all welcome in church. And then they learn the “Truth”, aka, the Bible. They can accept it or rebel against it but they can’t change it.
[/quote]

I’m not sure you’re understanding the point of the article. Maybe this will help:

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting divorce is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits divorce.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepting men wearing their hair long is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits men wearing their hair long.

The problem I have with a Christian church accepts women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, prohibits women speaking in church and having their heads uncovered.

The problem I have with a Christian church promoting marriage over celibacy is that its principle source of existance, the Bible, promotes celibacy over marriage.[/quote]

I do understand and I have no qualms with your most recent post, except that the Bible doesn’t promote celibacy over marriage. Paul stated his own personal opinion, there is no doctrinal belief putting one over the other.

But your post only elaborates on my point. Maybe I can make it more simple for you.

The Bible lists a set of beliefs and rules that constitue the very fabric of the Christian religion. If you are editing, ignoring or intentionally ignoring the rules and beliefs, you are not truly practicing Christianity. A Church preaching that homosexuality is ok and acceptable is not a Christian church, even if they use other elements of the Bible in it’s sermons and tenents.

A church preaching divorce, murder, slander et cetera as acceptable behaviours is not a Christian church.

A church that accepts gay, divorced, murderous members and loves them for who they are, but preaches the Bible as it is, is a Christian church.
[/quote]

Why is it Paul’s opinion when he discusses the superiority of celibacy, but it is not Paul’s opinion when he is discussing homosexuality?

And since you didn’t mention the other biblical condemnations, I assume you believe a truly Christian church wouldn’t allow divorce, requires men to wear their hair short, requires women to have their heads covered, and disallows them from speaking in church?[/quote]

Just as another poster mentioned, a Christian church accepts the sinner, not the sin. For all sins, not just homosexuality. I did address that. 1 million wrongs don’t make a right, I will say it again.

Gays, long headed fellows, divorcees et cetera are all accepted in church. That doesn’t mean the church suggests people get divorced grow their hair out and engage in gay sex. If it did, would it be preaching a Christian message?
[/quote]

That’s not what I asked.

If a church allows members to divorce, without considering it a sin, is it a Christian church?

If a church doesn’t consider it a sin for women to speak in church or have their heads uncovered, is it a Christian church?

If a church doesn’t consider it a sin for men to have long hair, is it a Christian church?

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Homosexuality is explicitly a sin in the Bible.

Accept the sinner, not the sin.

Sins are why we have church, if we didn’t sin, we wouldn’t need it. Kicking out someone for sinning is stupid.

The difference with homosexuality is that many want the church to condone it. They don’t want churches to tell them it’s a sin. In that case, the person is denying the teachings of the church, and should just leave. (this would mean people being openly gay and being offended when told it?s wrong and wanting the church to “accept them for who they are”).

All that said, it is no inherently different than any other sin. If I were an open alcoholic and wanted the church to accept me as such and not tell me drunkenness is a sin, I’d expect to be told to get bent too.
[/quote]

And your opinion on other biblical condemnations against divorce, women speaking in church, etc.?
[/quote]

Women clearly can speak in the church. [/quote]

Why is it ok to ignore Paul’s condemnation of women speaking in the church, while accepting his condemnation of homosexuality as valid?[/quote]

If a church preaches a message condoning homosexuality, is it preaching a Christian message?