Home School

[quote]lucasa wrote:
on edge wrote:

You just basically said you weren’t socialized very well by the system. You were in it until 15 and it made you a punk-ass kid. If you had been homeschooled the whole way, you may have done better. Clearly, by 15 a huge part of your “socialization” was complete.

Wow! Does it cure blindness too? Without knowing anything other than he attended public school and dropped out you can accurately diagnose that public schools made him a punk-ass and that homeschooling might have helped him?

Sorry to be so demanding for things like “evidence” and “proof” , but wouldn’t you want to actually know something about him before saying that it made him a punk-ass kid?[/quote]

Your post above is a good rebutle. This one sucks.

He said it himself that he was a punk ass kid. I just took his word for it. He also said he started homeschooling at 15. If he started homeschooling at 15, you can’t seriously blame punk-assness on HS.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
on edge wrote:

Push is absolutely right.

So you assert that caution should be thrown to the wind when homeschooling your kids and that encouraging them to interact with other kids is a bad idea?

And this is your “observation” based on the hundreds of kids you’ve homeschooled? Or are you spewing innane, baseless rhetoric like everyone else?

What if I was homeschooled by my mom and my dad is a public HS teacher, where would that put me? Because I happen to agree w/Mr. Ian’s recommendations and would appreciate it if you could fit me into one of your neat pre-conceived bins.[/quote]

Now for your good post.

Without any interaction with other children, a child probably would make a better adult, however, the childhood joys that a child should have would be seriously limited. I think finding a good balance is critical and I think, for many children, the balance of influence is tipped too heavily toward other children in a classic school environment.

I’ve seen lots of kids grow up just fine being home schooled. I also see spelling bees and geography bees dominated by homeschoolees. I also know that home schooled kids get into Stanford and Harvard at a higher percentage rate than the rest of the population. Choosing homeschooling is clearly not throwing caution to the wind. It clearly works out very well for a lot of kids.

You question if you were homeschooled by one parent while your other was a teacher forces me to admit that virtually everyone has come in contact with someone who has made a compelling (compassionate) argument against HS. So, I admit, I was making a safe categorization.

[quote]on edge wrote:

Without any interaction with other children, a child probably would make a better adult, however, the childhood joys that a child should have would be seriously limited. I think finding a good balance is critical and I think, for many children, the balance of influence is tipped too heavily toward other children in a classic school environment.[/quote]

While I agree ideas like “emotional intelligence” are drastically overrated, I think depriving yourself (or your children) of normal social interaction (normal being determined by the average) at any age is detrimental.

Are the ones who dominate spelling bees also getting into Harvard in droves or are we looking at very small numbers of very specialized actors and ascribing them collectively as superior? And I’m not saying homeschooling always mutates a kid’s social skills irreversibly forever (I don’t think anyone has), merely that if caution is not exercised homeschooling can quite easily be synonymous with brainwashing, much the same way it can be perceived that propaganda is rampant in schools.

BTW- It’s okay to use the word homeschool (and its conjugates). It’s real. “Homeschoolee” on the other hand…

So, the majority of students at Harvard and Stanford are homeschooled? Nope. So, the majority of people who apply to these schools and get turned away aren’t qualified? Nope. So very many public HS generate too many candidates for Ivy League schools some of whom are less qualified than homeschool students? Yep. And this demonstrates homeschooling’s superiority or has bearing on social interaction because?

You’re missing my point entirely, I’m not against homeschooling, I’m not saying homeschooled kids can’t achieve. I’m more against attributing false statistics against a false cause because of emotional attachment (which you fling vicariously at others). Or throwing up tangentially relevant statistics in an effort to smokescreen the truth. Good parenting leads to smart kids. Lots of interaction with others leads to good social skills. Homeschooling inherently predisposes one, public schooling inherently predisposes the other, neither ensures both. And to absolutely deny or absolutely ascribe (which Mr. Ian did not do) is shinola of the purest form.

Were you coming at this with eyes wide open you would know that that’s not what I (via Mr. Ian) said. Homeschooling isn’t throwing caution into the wind, but when homeschooling, it is wise not to throw caution into the wind.

It’s public education, dimwit. Everyone is involved in one way or another. Everybody is going to know somebody who knows somebody. Just because somebody knows a schoolteacher doesn’t mean their opinion is biased or irrelevant. And once again, as nice as it is for you to be able to file people in neat little baskets and make diagnoses without really knowing anything, this is the internet, for all you know I was raised by wolves.

And I’d get off my ‘emotionally biased’ high horse. Like homeschoolers who spew false data and derogatory “statistics” at people without once considering that maybe it’s the parenting rather than the actual education that makes a difference are any less biased.

Here’s the funny thing, either you a) were homeschooled or homeschooled someone (Which means you’re a biased hypocrit guilty of the same BS that you’re “fighting against”) or b) were publicly schooled and do the same with your children. (In which case you’re a biased hypocrit guilty of the same BS you’re both “fighting against” and supporting.)

Lucasa,

was your post supposed to be humorous?

[quote]lucasa wrote:
I were “home-schooled” back there in the 90’s’. We had sports cheerleading, and stuff etc. It were good. Some states like FlA and chicago, ILLin. suck some don’t. It varies. Anyways, use the internet or aks people.

Good Luck!
[/quote]

[quote]lucasa wrote:
on edge wrote:

Without any interaction with other children, a child probably would make a better adult, however, the childhood joys that a child should have would be seriously limited. I think finding a good balance is critical and I think, for many children, the balance of influence is tipped too heavily toward other children in a classic school environment.

While I agree ideas like “emotional intelligence” are drastically overrated, I think depriving yourself (or your children) of normal social interaction (normal being determined by the average) at any age is detrimental.

I’ve seen lots of kids grow up just fine being home schooled. I also see spelling bees and geography bees dominated by homeschoolees.

Are the ones who dominate spelling bees also getting into Harvard in droves or are we looking at very small numbers of very specialized actors and ascribing them collectively as superior? And I’m not saying homeschooling always mutates a kid’s social skills irreversibly forever (I don’t think anyone has), merely that if caution is not exercised homeschooling can quite easily be synonymous with brainwashing, much the same way it can be perceived that propaganda is rampant in schools.

BTW- It’s okay to use the word homeschool (and its conjugates). It’s real. “Homeschoolee” on the other hand…

I also know that home schooled kids get into Stanford and Harvard at a higher percentage rate than the rest of the population.

So, the majority of students at Harvard and Stanford are homeschooled? Nope. So, the majority of people who apply to these schools and get turned away aren’t qualified? Nope. So very many public HS generate too many candidates for Ivy League schools some of whom are less qualified than homeschool students? Yep. And this demonstrates homeschooling’s superiority or has bearing on social interaction because?

You’re missing my point entirely, I’m not against homeschooling, I’m not saying homeschooled kids can’t achieve. I’m more against attributing false statistics against a false cause because of emotional attachment (which you fling vicariously at others). Or throwing up tangentially relevant statistics in an effort to smokescreen the truth. Good parenting leads to smart kids. Lots of interaction with others leads to good social skills. Homeschooling inherently predisposes one, public schooling inherently predisposes the other, neither ensures both. And to absolutely deny or absolutely ascribe (which Mr. Ian did not do) is shinola of the purest form.

Choosing homeschooling is clearly not throwing caution to the wind. It clearly works out very well for a lot of kids.

Were you coming at this with eyes wide open you would know that that’s not what I (via Mr. Ian) said. Homeschooling isn’t throwing caution into the wind, but when homeschooling, it is wise not to throw caution into the wind.

You question if you were homeschooled by one parent while your other was a teacher forces me to admit that virtually everyone has come in contact with someone who has made a compelling (compassionate) argument against HS. So, I admit, I was making a safe categorization.

It’s public education, dimwit. Everyone is involved in one way or another. Everybody is going to know somebody who knows somebody. Just because somebody knows a schoolteacher doesn’t mean their opinion is biased or irrelevant. And once again, as nice as it is for you to be able to file people in neat little baskets and make diagnoses without really knowing anything, this is the internet, for all you know I was raised by wolves.

And I’d get off my ‘emotionally biased’ high horse. Like homeschoolers who spew false data and derogatory “statistics” at people without once considering that maybe it’s the parenting rather than the actual education that makes a difference are any less biased.

Here’s the funny thing, either you a) were homeschooled or homeschooled someone (Which means you’re a biased hypocrit guilty of the same BS that you’re “fighting against”) or b) were publicly schooled and do the same with your children. (In which case you’re a biased hypocrit guilty of the same BS you’re both “fighting against” and supporting.)[/quote]

Man, could you blow any harder? Could you be any angrier about this? As if I attached anyone one on this topic. I am simply defending the option of homeschooling.

Wrong on A and B. I went to school and I’ve never homeschooled anyone. My son is not school aged yet, but eventually you will be able to place me in neat little basket A.

Since it’s easy to provide social opportunities for children while homeschooling, there’s no reason why it can’t be a better option for those willing to do the work.

[quote]on edge wrote:
Push is absolutely right. Homeschool kids have better socialization skills because they learn to socialize with adults and that, my friends, is where it’s at. You don’t want your kids socialized by other kids.
[/quote]

I like homeschooling, but I disagree with this point. I also “learned to socialize with adults,” which served the wonderful function of alienating me from my peers.

Yes, it is important to be able to interact with adults, but the kinds of social knowledge you need to deal with adults are not the same as what a child needs in order to deal with his peers. I knew guys who were home schooled in college, and while they weren’t social retards like me, they did seem to have some problems adjusting to college life. Most “normal” kids seem to go crazy when they get away from home, whereas the home-schooled ones (contrary to the old trope) seemed to stay more withdrawn. Both kinds of kids were going to extremes.

I am not trying to take a stance on whether or not home-schooled children are socially handicapped as a result - some of the kids I’ve known who were home-schooled would’ve been social misfits anyway, just because of their home environment. Some did just fine socially. I am arguing with the idea that socializing with adults is adequate preparation for socializing with one’s peers.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
on edge wrote:
Push is absolutely right. Homeschool kids have better socialization skills because they learn to socialize with adults and that, my friends, is where it’s at. You don’t want your kids socialized by other kids.

I like homeschooling, but I disagree with this point. I also “learned to socialize with adults,” which served the wonderful function of alienating me from my peers.

Yes, it is important to be able to interact with adults, but the kinds of social knowledge you need to deal with adults are not the same as what a child needs in order to deal with his peers. I knew guys who were home schooled in college, and while they weren’t social retards like me, they did seem to have some problems adjusting to college life. Most “normal” kids seem to go crazy when they get away from home, whereas the home-schooled ones (contrary to the old trope) seemed to stay more withdrawn. Both kinds of kids were going to extremes.

I am not trying to take a stance on whether or not home-schooled children are socially handicapped as a result - some of the kids I’ve known who were home-schooled would’ve been social misfits anyway, just because of their home environment. Some did just fine socially. I am arguing with the idea that socializing with adults is adequate preparation for socializing with one’s peers.[/quote]

I later said that kids should have socialization with other kids for their happiness.

Anyway, socializing with adults isn’t adequate preparation for socializing with children, however, children do eventually grow up.

[quote]on edge wrote:
I later said that kids should have socialization with other kids for their happiness.
[/quote]

Must’ve missed that, sorry.

[quote]
Anyway, socializing with adults isn’t adequate preparation for socializing with children, however, children do eventually grow up.[/quote]

Still not the same. The sort of “socializing” one does with one’s superiors, regardless of age, isn’t the same sort of socializing that one does with one’s peers, regardless of age. The adults may like the child and interact with him, but they certainly aren’t exposing him to the full spectrum of adult social interaction (at least I hope not). The child is admired by adults for certain qualities that are admirable because he is a child and not an adult. These same behaviors aren’t necessarily useful in later life. He isn’t learning to be a “little adult,” with the same level of respect and input as everyone else in the group. He is probably being taught to be polite, to be respectful. In past eras he would’ve been taught to speak when spoken to; nowadays, he’s probably praised for the clever or idiosyncratic things he says, as he attempts to imitate an adult. Not good preparation.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
You may have other valid concerns but this should not be one of them and I repeat, I speak from experience. I’ve done it and my kids have superb socialization skills. I have many friends and acquaintances and their kids do too.[/quote]

Push: I am actually in agreement with you. I have seen some wonderful successes with home-schooling, and I think it is a great option for parents who are capable of it and children who can do it.

My point of contention was with on edge’s comment about learning to socialize with adults, which he subsequently cleared up.

Oh… and Rousseau’s Emile, Or On Education is the best book about home-schooling ever written ;-).

From Lucasa “You’re missing my point entirely, I’m not against homeschooling,”

With how overwhelmingly vocal you were against everyone supporting homeschool it was pretty difficult to cause any but one conclusion.

From Lucasa “I’m not saying homeschooled kids can’t achieve. I’m more against attributing false statistics against a false cause because of emotional attachment (which you fling vicariously at others).”

Rather than bitching at everybody else, enlighten us with the statistics that show otherwise and convince us, since you must obviously know what the statistics are.

I definitely agree with the last part of your comment, people do tend to get emotionally charged for either side.

From Lucasa “Or throwing up tangentially relevant statistics in an effort to smokescreen the truth. Good parenting leads to smart kids.”

Man I couldn’t agree with you more here. Good parenting is the key indeed. The kids that tend to succeed in public/private school and home school have the parental involvement(some do succeed without parental involvement though)

From Lucasa “Lots of interaction with others leads to good social skills.”

I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion of labelling the results “good.” And this is some of the bones of contention on socialization.

Homeschool kids would have the tendency to be somewhat more mature in their comfort in interacting with adults this is what can carry over into interactions with kids and can lead to some separation. Usually in a more one on one setting.

However get kids in big group settings(like at a park) and when playing you can’t tell the different groups apart because then it’s not about intelligence it’s about playing.

from Lucasa “Homeschooling inherently predisposes one, public schooling inherently predisposes the other,”

So is part of this apparent “good socializing” that public school provides the kid in elementary school afraid to go to school because they are having a bad hair day or that they have worn all their clothes once already and all the “cool kids” never wear anything twice?

Or is the fact that public school kids tend to have 1-3 hours of homework even after spending all day at school already? Is that part of the “good socialization?”

Or perhaps it’s the part where kids in elementary school are talking (and maybe doing) sex acts and wearing clothes when they aren’t mature enough to make the decision?

Regardless of the fact the common denominator is what occurs at home that contributes more to socialization. It’s the parental involvement whether in public school or home school.

From Lucasa “neither ensures both.”

Of course they don’t because it’s not about the kids or the system, it’s about the parents.

So what are the benefits I see of home schooling?

Well I get to praise my kids and contribute more to their self-esteem than any teacher ever could.

If my kid struggles with a subject, we can take as much time and help them understand it…now my Johnny or Sarah don’t get centered out as being a dummy when s/he gets sent to remedial class, and they don’t hear the classmates giggle with mistakes.

If they are understanding something well, we get to speed ahead.

They usually are done in 3-4 hours each day at the most … with breaks, leaving lots of time to socialize and learn “life skills” from life and NOT as a school subject.

The cirriculum selections run the gambits. You can get religious based or not, mostly reading, mostly writing or you can mix and match, the skies the limit.

The younger ones learn by “osmosis” and watching/ listening to the older ones.

I don’t have to worry about the “school” cutting a subject the kid likes. And if the kid wants to do something the “school” doesn’t/hasn’t offered…it can usually be quickly arranged.

The “downside” I don’t get the time for myself during the day that others can get…but hey that’s a life choice and that’s usually only short lived, homeschool is portable, and kids learn independence quickly and I can trust them when out of eye sight and not worry.

For what it’s worth.

Damn high school was so damn fun, i couldnt imagine missing out on that.

[quote]blok wrote:
Damn high school was so damn fun, i couldnt imagine missing out on that.[/quote]

Feh, you can keep it. And middle school was more like prison than anything I’ve experienced since, including county jail!

Every time I pass a school bus, my heart goes out to the kids on it. Shit, I don’t know what kind of shape I’ll be in when my daughter is school age.

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
Feh, you can keep it. And middle school was more like prison than anything I’ve experienced since, including county jail!
[/quote]

Highschool wasn’t bad for me. Elementary and middle school were torture. If I had realized in highschool that not everyone was out to get me, I could’ve had a lot more fun than I did.

I am not talking from what I have “heard” I am speaking from what I have and still see to this day. I went to 1st and 2nd grade with my best friend. We continued to be friends up until this day. He was home schooled from 3rd grade until 9th. Once put in high school he could not interact with other kids, or people. He was pulled out of high school that same year. Not only him but his 2 brothers and sister can not function in a social issues.

One is pulled away from society, 2 are completely wild and are expressing the rebellious stage at the age of 24, where as a public/private schooled child expresses at around 14-18. One is always angry and the other is very reserved. All different people, but all bad social skills. Ok, maybe its because of the parents? I met a lot of the other home schooled kids they “interacted” with.

About 2 out of MANY are actually functional in social environments. Most of them today are expressing that rebellious stage we all go through at the young teenage years, we want freedom. They are expressing the “rebellious/freedom” phases in the twenties, because they have been “kept safe at home” in there parents shells, god forbid if they hear naughty words from kids at school, or the dirty jokes.

I understand your concern for today?s public schools and there lack of education and “wholeness”, but if they do not learn from their peers, and are not integrated with schooled children, good luck… Maybe yours will turn out like one of the few normal ones. If its for educational perpouse, sure, but if its because of society, your kids cant be protected for ever.

You cant box your children in your homes. And interaction with Adults!? That thats exactly who I wanted to play GI Joes with in the back yard, or Made up bad guys in the back yard… Adult respect should be Emphasized, but friendships should be with their peers.

One more thing, What about Prom? Sports? School clubs? school dances/funtions? Those are all very important parts of alot of our lives, and memories.