I know this should probably go into the strength sports section but, the principals of the question are probably best answered here. I have become very interested in powerlifting and strongman competition. But, I am very much in love with HIT training as Dorian Yates prescribed and bodybuilding. My question is can I go after my powerlifting aspirations following the HIT training style and still gaining alot of muscle.
HIT is a bodybuilding method and is not ideal for powerlifters. It neglects the vitally important neurological component of a max lift attempt.
simple answer of no
typically you will train in lower rep ranges for strength, but that simply is not safe to do or efficient using HIT
my question is how many pro/elite lifters do you see using HIT exclusively in either powerlifting or bodybuilding?
Of course my definition of HIT is one set to utter failure
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
simple answer of no
typically you will train in lower rep ranges for strength, but that simply is not safe to do or efficient using HIT
my question is how many pro/elite lifters do you see using HIT exclusively in either powerlifting or bodybuilding?
Of course my definition of HIT is one set to utter failure[/quote]
HIT is Mentzer’s/Jones’ stuff. That lies in the past and is very rarely used these days (for a reason).
@OP: Yates did not advocate HIT at all. He incorporated a lot of intensity-techniques into his work and used less warm-ups than most of us do now, but that has nothing to do with traditional HIT as such.
HIT is still around with Dr. Darden and his cronies… Check his site if you want…
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
HIT is Mentzer’s/Jones’ stuff. That lies in the past and is very rarely used these days (for a reason).
[/quote]
yeah, I used to be a ‘Jedi’ until I was enlightened
[quote]belligerent wrote:
HIT is a bodybuilding method and is not ideal for powerlifters. It neglects the vitally important neurological component of a max lift attempt.
[/quote]
Very true. HIT also does not allow enough volume to learn the lifts correctly and, (let’s be honest) it doesn’t increase strength to the level required for power lifting.
Ok so maybe HIT is the wrong way to say it but, I still like to follow the very low volume super intense workouts that Dorian advocates. And obviously you can get very strong with this style of training I mean look at Dorian,Ray and Mike Mentzer, and Mark DUgdale they all advocate in the same ball park of HIT style and they all move serious weights. And I have been reading much of mentzer’s work and a technique that seems like it would be powerlifting friendly is rest pause.
Belligerent said"It neglects the vitally important neurological component of a max lift attempt." It seems this rest-pause technigue could remedy that problem by taking a weight that you could only lift 1-3 times before muscular failure, re rack weight take 10-15 seconds and do it again and then once more. Its basically low rep dog crapp training.
I dont know maybe I am stupid or something but, it sounds like a half decent plan of attack in my head but I am not a expert. Sample bench workout:
1.Bench Press:4 warmup sets of 10,6,4,2/1
work set of 1-5 reps(rest pause)
2.Incline DB press:1 set of 5-8 reps
3.Side Laterals:2 set of 6-10 reps
4.Floor Press:1 set of 5-8 reps
[quote]im_the_truth_ wrote:
Ok so maybe HIT is the wrong way to say it but, I still like to follow the very low volume super intense workouts that Dorian advocates. And obviously you can get very strong with this style of training I mean look at Dorian,Ray and Mike Mentzer, and Mark DUgdale they all advocate in the same ball park of HIT style and they all move serious weights. And I have been reading much of mentzer’s work and a technique that seems like it would be powerlifting friendly is rest pause.
Belligerent said"It neglects the vitally important neurological component of a max lift attempt." It seems this rest-pause technigue could remedy that problem by taking a weight that you could only lift 1-3 times before muscular failure, re rack weight take 10-15 seconds and do it again and then once more. Its basically low rep dog crapp training.
I dont know maybe I am stupid or something but, it sounds like a half decent plan of attack in my head but I am not a expert. Sample bench workout:
1.Bench Press:4 warmup sets of 10,6,4,2/1
work set of 1-5 reps(rest pause)
2.Incline DB press:1 set of 5-8 reps
3.Side Laterals:2 set of 6-10 reps
4.Floor Press:1 set of 5-8 reps
[/quote]
If I were you I would stop screwing around and use a program that actually works like: http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/westside_for_skinny_bastards&cr=
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Very true. HIT also does not allow enough volume to learn the lifts correctly and, (let’s be honest) it doesn’t increase strength to the level required for power lifting. [/quote]
The validity of this statement depends on how you are defining strength. HIT maximizes muscular torque, i.e. the contractile capacity of the muscle cells, so in that sense is probably the best method for increasing strength. On the other hand, HIT does not train the neurological component of strength, i.e. the ‘skill’ required for a max lift attempt. To be sure, HIT will improve your powerlifting ability if you are not already training in powerlifting methods, but it is not ideal in that respect.
ok thanks belligerent
[quote]belligerent wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Very true. HIT also does not allow enough volume to learn the lifts correctly and, (let’s be honest) it doesn’t increase strength to the level required for power lifting.
The validity of this statement depends on how you are defining strength. HIT maximizes muscular torque, i.e. the contractile capacity of the muscle cells, so in that sense is probably the best method for increasing strength.
On the other hand, HIT does not train the neurological component of strength, i.e. the ‘skill’ required for a max lift attempt. To be sure, HIT will improve your powerlifting ability if you are not already training in powerlifting methods, but it is not ideal in that respect.
[/quote]
The contractile capacity is directly related to the motor unit functioning, which is neurological in nature. This is why HIT does not work best for strength development because the limiting factor of 1 set to failure is the neurological system.
So the muscle fiber doesn’t get enough stimulation to grown and the neurological system get’s too much. When the neurological system get?s too much stimulation it starts to shut down your motor unit and will not allow further growth. This is why HIT works great for a short time and then stops.
In any case, not going to argue with you about HIT as I know many are totally into it. These are the facts as I know them and what many have experienced as well. Also, no power lifers who actually compete use HIT.
Ok Lorisco I am not trying to argue just ask a question and I respect your response as advise from the people on this forum are what I was looking for. And its not neccasarily HIT with just one set to failure. Its more along the lines of just very low volume I am sorry for using HIT because its not really HIT by the one set to failure standard. But it is greatly reduced volume it looks like this.
www.musclenet.com/powerliftingfaq.html
its low volume powerlifting work I would lower the reps on the first exercise of each day to more around 2-5 instead of 8-10.
I am not trying to start a arguement here just discussing some ideas. But if my ideas are utterly stupid and pointless just say so and be on your way. Every one feels very different about training I love low volume work… you dont. Neither of us are wrong just different.
[quote]im_the_truth_ wrote:
Ok Lorisco I am not trying to argue just ask a question and I respect your response as advise from the people on this forum are what I was looking for. And its not neccasarily HIT with just one set to failure. Its more along the lines of just very low volume I am sorry for using HIT because its not really HIT by the one set to failure standard. But it is greatly reduced volume it looks like this.
www.musclenet.com/powerliftingfaq.html
its low volume powerlifting work I would lower the reps on the first exercise of each day to more around 2-5 instead of 8-10.
I am not trying to start a arguement here just discussing some ideas. But if my ideas are utterly stupid and pointless just say so and be on your way. Every one feels very different about training I love low volume work… you dont. Neither of us are wrong just different.[/quote]
HIT is a specific training philosophy started by Author Jones and is 1 set to failure. So when you say HIT, that is what I think of. But the link you posted is not HIT. Low volume is not HIT.
I personally like low volume training and think that it is a good way to increase strength and for bodybuilding (like dogg crap).
The program on this link IMO would be a good program for strength developed if you ramp up the load to max. So for example, if you are doing a max bench at 250 for 5-6 reps, you would start with 10 x 160, 10 x 185, 8 x 200, 8 x 225, 5-6 x 250.
A lot of bodybuilders use this approach as well. The difference is they also add in back off sets or straight sets with higher reps and less weight.
So IMO, this is a good plan. Also, if you are new to strength training I would workout more frequently than one muscle group per week. Splits are great but total body training IMO works better for new trainers. So if you are new I would do the following:
Monday
Squat 2 sets of 8-10
Bench Press 2 sets of 8-10
Close Grip Bench 2 sets of 8-10
Preacher Curls 2 sets of 8-10
Weighted Chins 1 set of 8-10
Weighted Crunches 2 sets of 25
Wednesday
Deadlift 1 set of 8-10
Bench Press 2 sets of 8-10
Close Grip Bench 2 sets of 8-10
Preacher Curls 2 sets of 8-10
Weighted Chins 1 set of 8-10
Weighted Crunches 2 sets of 25
Friday
Squat 2 sets of 8-10
Bench Press 2 sets of 8-10
Close Grip Bench 2 sets of 8-10
Preacher Curls 2 sets of 8-10
Weighted Chins 1 set of 8-10
Weighted Crunches 2 sets of 25
Then after 6 months to 1 year go to more exercises per muscle group and a once per week split.
the cyberpump website, more or less a HIT website, has many of Dr. Ken Leistner’s articles. Dr. Ken helps many great powerlifters. Some of his articles give you advice on how to increase your squat and deadlift for powerlifting competition.
thank you very much for the cyber pump website I will check it out.