http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1123530297378.pyrros_4_1.jpg
and another one of Pyrros, but not a full squat. a few inches shy of parallel (4-5 inches maybe, i dont know, im not a PLer). notice the angle of his back.
do you notice the difference of back angle in this pic and the two previous? in the two former he has a “neutral” spine, but it is definately “rounded.” in the latter pic he has a completely extended back.
and here’s a link to Pyrros Dimas’ site. it’s in greek, click on the third to the bottom sentence. it’s the only one with … in the middle.
it’s a vid of one of his comp lifts, and i think if you look closely you’ll be able to notice a change of trunk flexion/extension as his depth changes.
Just my .02:
I think that this topic is often argued because Louie often refers to the hip “flexors” and “flexing” off the box. What he’s really getting at here (at least from what I gather) is that he really means the hip abductors. He wants you to push the knees/feet out to initiate the drive off the box.
While there’s some great discussion going on here, I think it really comes down to using the correct terminology and knowing what the author is getting at.
Stay strong
MR
oh, and for clarification, only the lower back (lumbar) should be under flexion in a full squat. the thoracic and cervical should be completely extended.
well, maybe some of the thoracic should flex depending on depth. ive seen some OLers get so deep their asses look to be an inch from the floor.
but i dont know precisely cuz i dont know anatomy.
Mike,
Since you’re around I’ll take advantage and ask you a question.
When I squat I get pain in my hip flexors(that is, the area in the front where my legs connect to the trunk in case i am not using the right terminology) and I seem to get pulled to the right as I approach the bottom position. This just started happening a couple months ago and while I can’t point to a specific injury or movement that caused it, my hips(same area as I mentioned above) were bothering me in rugby.
The pain is substantial, but I can deal with it. The area feels weak however and i think it is affecting my numbers. I also get pain and weakness when I do the lower back stretch where you cross your leg over one way and twist your torso the other. My right leg hurts when i drive as well.
My initial thoughts were that my hip flexors were just tight, but I stretch my hip flexors pretty frequently, more so now and it doesn’t seem to help.
Any thoughts?
[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
Just my .02:
I think that this topic is often argued because Louie often refers to the hip “flexors” and “flexing” off the box. What he’s really getting at here (at least from what I gather) is that he really means the hip abductors. He wants you to push the knees/feet out to initiate the drive off the box.
While there’s some great discussion going on here, I think it really comes down to using the correct terminology and knowing what the author is getting at.
Stay strong
MR[/quote]
Mike, thanks for you input. have you any experience with purposely pulling the knees in to facilitate coming out of the hole during full squats?
i’ve heard and seen some references where world class OLers are doing, or beginning to do, this. perhaps because pulling the knees in puts the adductors in a better position, mechanically?
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
i’ve heard and seen some references where world class OLers are doing, or beginning to do, this. perhaps because pulling the knees in puts the adductors in a better position, mechanically?[/quote]
Seems like they’re throwing caution to the wind to put up ever bigger numbers. Knees buckling in is indicative of weak hamstrings and glutes (usually), and it puts a LOT of stress on the MCL. However, putting more of the stress on the MCL allows that much more to be handled by the musculature. That’s just a guess, though, I’m not sure of the reasoning of the coaches.
Sometimes it just happens, though, when attempting max weights. Form breaks aren’t terribly uncommon at maxes, after all.
Oh, I tried your tests. Got my hams fully pressed against my calves with no lumbar flexion, felt perfectly stable. There was a slight forward tilt facilitated by hip flexion to keep my center of gravity over the middle of my feet, though (no change in relative position of the lumbar vertebre to the pelvis, it was the same as when standing straight up - I had someone put their hands there to feel for motion). If I got under a max, though, I might falter a little, as weaknesses would show through. There shouldn’t be any trunk flexion when squatting, and there should be full extension - not hyperextension, though.
I agree with Mike, I think the whole thing started from a terminology mixup.
-Dan
[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
i’ve heard and seen some references where world class OLers are doing, or beginning to do, this. perhaps because pulling the knees in puts the adductors in a better position, mechanically?
Seems like they’re throwing caution to the wind to put up ever bigger numbers. Knees buckling in is indicative of weak hamstrings and glutes (usually), and it puts a LOT of stress on the MCL. However, putting more of the stress on the MCL allows that much more to be handled by the musculature. That’s just a guess, though, I’m not sure of the reasoning of the coaches.
Sometimes it just happens, though, when attempting max weights. Form breaks aren’t terribly uncommon at maxes, after all.
Oh, I tried your tests. Got my hams fully pressed against my calves with no lumbar flexion, felt perfectly stable. There was a slight forward tilt facilitated by hip flexion to keep my center of gravity over the middle of my feet, though (no change in relative position of the lumbar vertebre to the pelvis, it was the same as when standing straight up - I had someone put their hands there to feel for motion). If I got under a max, though, I might falter a little, as weaknesses would show through. There shouldn’t be any trunk flexion when squatting, and there should be full extension - not hyperextension, though.
I agree with Mike, I think the whole thing started from a terminology mixup.
-Dan[/quote]
wufuguy-
Great tests and great pictures.
However, on the pictures, you don’t see Dimas from the side, so it’s hard to tell EXACTLY what his lower back is doing. One might (incorrectly) make the argument that since his stomach looks flat, he is actually pulling in to activate his TvA.
Completely different topic, I know, but in the same vein…Perhaps what you are seeing from that 45 degree to the body vantage point that his pictures provide is well developed lumbar erectors. (If you look at the stripe running down his torso and leg, it doesn’t APPEAR to bow in just above the hip, indicating that his trunk is still “neutral.”)
Also, how much weight is he snatching? Is it limit–a PR or WR? There is subtle and slight deviations in form at those weights. So, it is POSSIBLE that his lumbar is flexed, but unlikely. As a former competitive weightlifter, I can tell you that if your back rounds (trunk flexes) on the catch, you’re going to have a very hard time on the recovery. So try your broomstick test with a bar loaded to 315lbs–if your butt tucks/torso flexes, you’ll probably drop the bar in front of you.
Remember, just because someone “great” does something, doesn’t mean it’s correct. In fact, two contrasting examples: I have video tape at home from '82/'83 Weightlifting World Cup and World Championships respectively. They show from the rear, Pisarenko, the USSR’s Super from the time snatching. In that video, he definitely does not flex his trunk.
Conversely, if you watch Blagoev the 90kg lifter from Bulgaria on the same video, it “appears” that his trunk does flex on the snatch. The video shows the side view and the front view. (I don’t think I can upload these videos because I’m not technoligically inclined–but I’ll ask around if you’re interested in seeing them–so you’ll just have to take my word for it.)
After watching his videos, Dimas also collapses slightly into his right glute at the catch of the snatch and the clean. Using your reasoning, we should infer that we should also collapse into our right glutes during a full squat? Obviously not. Granted, Dimas is a GREAT weightlifter, perhaps one of the greatest ever (Kakisvilis also won 3 Olympic golds…) but limit weights change technique, even if ever so slightly…
For grins and giggles, try this experiment: Perform your broomstick test. Then stretch your psoas, gluteals, hip external rotators, and hamstrings. Perform the test again by initiating the motion at the knee instead of the hip. Actively pull yourself into the hole using your hip flexors. Maybe have someone watch you do it to see if there is any change or perhaps video yourself. It would be interesting to see if there is any change. From (a lot) of personal experience, I know where I’d bet my money…
As far as weightlifters pulling the knees together when squatting, sometimes that’s the body’s intuitive way of trying to recruit the AB-ductors–the glutes. Pulling the knees in coming out of the hole pre-stretches the glute max and hip external rotators, a sort of stretch-reflex if you will. If you watch closely, the knees really won’t track much past the big toe. If they do, the body is indicating that it can’t recruit the abductors (reference buffalokillas’ remarks about weak glutes and hams) and the squat will finish almost like a good morning with the knees straightening earlier than the hips.
Hope that helps.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
i still think the terms are being confused because panterarosa claims that there should be no trunk flexion/back rounding in a full squat, and claims the spine should be neutral. technically, spinal flexion and a “neutral” spine are not the same thing.
now, hearing you guys say that trunk flexion has no role in full squatting makes me think that you A) have never done them, B) have done them but haven’t consciously noticed trunk flexion (since you’re trying to maintain a “neutral” spine), or C) haven’t ever even thought about it because lots of “gurus” say the trunk should never be under flexion during a full squat (actually, they tend to use the word “neutral” but it seems that word has been used interchangeable with the thought “fully extended”).
personally, my full squats are two inches shy of ass touching floor. i recently just finished doing a three week cycle of full squats, 3 second pause in the hole, taking 3 reps to near failure. and i can assure you, my trunk was under flexion in the hole, and my good form was quite enviable. if it wasn’t under flexion then i would’ve fallen backwards (actually, it’s a good thing that the trunk flexes once you reach a certain depth because if it didn’t it would be really fecking hard, if not impossible, to dump the bar behind you).
if you dont believe me then try this experiment: grab a broomstick, stand beside a mirror (like a profile), get into full squat stance, hold broom in overhead squat position; now slowly descend into a full squat while keeping your trunk completely extended. if you do this right, you’ll find out that you fell backwards before you even reach parallel. for me this happens about 3-4 inches shy of PLers’ measurement of parallel. depending on your leverages it may vary.
still dont believe me? try this: get in the same position as before, but squat down to the deepest depth you can. you should notice that your back is straight, but because of the postion of your hips it is, technically, flexed. now, while sitting in the hole and without moving any other part of your body, slowly extend your back. if you do this right you’ll find that you fell backwards quite a ways before you were able to completely extend your back.
still dont believe me? well then, i’ll reference, the one and only, Pyrros Dimas…[/quote]
I think what we are debating is as much a question of terminology as technique. The photos that you posted illustrate excellent technique with minimal (or no) trunk flexion. The torso leans forward to counterbalance the body’s sitting back, and all the flexion is at the hip. The spine is in neutral curvature. That is to say that if you were to look at the torso laterally, you would see a slight concavity of the lower back.
I hope that helps clear things up.
http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1123642240698.maryse2003.JPG
Dan, Geoff, panterarosa thanks for you cordial responses.
the pics of Dimas are fine. they may not be the best, but it is possible to observe the difference in torso flexion from the latter pic (no flexion at all) and the former pics (some flexion, but as panterarosa pointed out, not enough to create a convex back). hmmm, maybe that’s where all the confusion is with me equating “rounded” and “flexion”…
now, compare this pic of Maryse Turcotte to the second pic of Dimas. something i’d left out of this discussion (and my consciousness) was the role of dorsiflexion on horizontal hip position and back extension/flexion. Turcotte achieves more dorsiflexion than Dimas and she is able to sit in a full squat with complete back extension because her hips are close enough, horizontally, to her center of gravity. Dimas, on the other hand, achieves less dorsiflexion than Turcotte and he must flex his spine enough to counterbalance his hips from being farther away, horizontally, from his center of gravity.
the Dimas/Turcotte analogy is not perfect because girls have inherently greater flexibility than boys. so it may be that lots of women yet very few men squat like Turcotte, and lots of men yet very few women squat like Dimas.
and yes, our biggest problem is terminology. because there is nothing wrong with Dimas’ back angle in his squats, but it is definately under some flexion when he’s in the hole (remember, a little bit of flexion and the back will still look concave). Turcotte on the other hand isn’t, because she doesn’t have to be due to plantar flexor flexibilty that brings her hips horizontally closer to her center of gravity.
P.S. i did the same experiments i asked you guys to do while standing on my toes and there was no spinal flexion at all in the hole. so maybe my plantar flexors need more flexibility, but then again, maybe not because men, for the most part, are not supposed to have the flexibility of women. and besides, my squat already looks nearly identical to Dimas’.
what are your thoughts on optimal dorsiflexion for men? could Dimas use more, or his he good enough as is?
[quote]Geoff Neupert wrote:
As far as weightlifters pulling the knees together when squatting, sometimes that’s the body’s intuitive way of trying to recruit the AB-ductors–the glutes. Pulling the knees in coming out of the hole pre-stretches the glute max and hip external rotators, a sort of stretch-reflex if you will. If you watch closely, the knees really won’t track much past the big toe. If they do, the body is indicating that it can’t recruit the abductors (reference buffalokillas’ remarks about weak glutes and hams) and the squat will finish almost like a good morning with the knees straightening earlier than the hips.
Hope that helps.[/quote]
in case you weren’t aware, im talking about purposely moving knees in on submaximal squats as well as maximal. other than that, i think you’re right about how pulling the knees is in an attempt to activate abduction and strethc-reflex.
what do you mean by “If you watch closely, the knees really won’t track much past the big toe.” are you saying that dorsiflexion has a role in hip abduction recruitment?
Bingo. I used to have a lot of rounding in my lower back when I did full squats (never went heavy till a few weeks ago because of this) until I started an aggressive calf and hamstring stretching program. Now I can hit rock bottom just like Turcotte with a lot of concentration without a heeled shoe, easily with a 1.5" heel.
I think the difference you’re seeing between Dimas and Turcotte is just because Dimas was going for a maximal snatch vs training the front squat in the gym (or a submax clean, whichever it is). His form looks identical to hers in training hall tapes and c&j openers.
I’d recommend stretching your plantar flexors a bit more, your knees and ankles will love you for it in the long run.
-Dan
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
Here is Dimas in action!
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas [/quote]
Kroll, thanks a million for the link! actually, i used to have this vid and i watched it so many times i’ve lost count. but i lost it cause i accidently deleted it. 
and now, i see if i still had it i may not have even engaged in this disagreement cause it really looks like he has no torso flexion in the hole.
Dimas’ dorsiflexion is definately better in the vid than in the second pic i posted. i think that at the time of the pic he simply didn’t have the flexibility. i think this because if he had, then despite it being a competition maximal attempt he’d display it.
thanks for the discussion guys! i love being shown when im wrong. not that i was wrong concerning the data i’d gathered, though…
edit: and now im definately gonna stretch my plantarflexors.
No problem. Awesome lifting huh!!
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
Here is Dimas in action!
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas [/quote]
Damn!!!
I love how this guy treats 200kilos with such disrespect.
Excellent vid. Cheers.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
Krollmonster wrote:
Here is Dimas in action!
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas
Kroll, thanks a million for the link! actually, i used to have this vid and i watched it so many times i’ve lost count. but i lost it cause i accidently deleted it.
and now, i see if i still had it i may not have even engaged in this disagreement cause it really looks like he has no torso flexion in the hole.
Dimas’ dorsiflexion is definately better in the vid than in the second pic i posted. i think that at the time of the pic he simply didn’t have the flexibility. i think this because if he had, then despite it being a competition maximal attempt he’d display it.
thanks for the discussion guys! i love being shown when im wrong. not that i was wrong concerning the data i’d gathered, though…
edit: and now im definately gonna stretch my plantarflexors.[/quote]
Yeah, Krollmonster–great video! Definitely a keeper!
Wufuguy–glad you learned something–as I’m sure we’ll all did. And that’s really the point of these discussions, the exchange of ideas. Thanks for a great topic.
As far as the “knees over the toes” thing, that came out completely wrong–I was pinched for time. What I was thinking but unable to convey at the time was that as the knees track toward the midline of the body (adduct), in most cases if you dropped a plumbline down from the knee, it wouldn’t track much past the big toe. Of course, this is a generalization and it’s dependent on the degree of hip external rotation…but that’s another topic altogether that we could probably discuss, wouldn’t you agree, buffalokilla?
So, wufuguy, would you post another thread in say, 3-6 weeks, after you’ve implemented your aggressive flexibility work and let us know if it made a difference in your squat?
I’m a powerlifter, but damn that is cool!
I’ve always been amazed at the mix of strength and power that O-lifters possess. Great video!
Stay strong
MR
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
Here is Dimas in action!
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas [/quote]
[quote]Geoff Neupert wrote:
As far as the “knees over the toes” thing, that came out completely wrong–I was pinched for time. What I was thinking but unable to convey at the time was that as the knees track toward the midline of the body (adduct), in most cases if you dropped a plumbline down from the knee, it wouldn’t track much past the big toe. Of course, this is a generalization and it’s dependent on the degree of hip external rotation…but that’s another topic altogether that we could probably discuss, wouldn’t you agree, buffalokilla?
So, wufuguy, would you post another thread in say, 3-6 weeks, after you’ve implemented your aggressive flexibility work and let us know if it made a difference in your squat?[/quote]
are you saying that with proper flexibility, where the knees go far enough beyond the toes, that abduction is activated enough that the knees pulling in wont happen? and one way you know this is because, generally, when squatters’ knees adduct they also aren’t tracking past the toes?
i will definately update on my squat progress. i’ll finally be able to do single leggeds without coming up on my toes. gee, that’s personal evidence right there about my inflexibility that ive known but just forgot…
http://www.olmagazine.citymax.com/page/page/1801505.htm
In this video you can see the lifter knees track way past the big toe. Seems like this is on purpose because he must have one of the best coaching staffs around and they don’t correct him.
Doesn’t have anything to do with the thread but on the thread I took the video off someone mention that this was the first of 5 sets he did and it was a light work out because he just got off a plane from China!